Huffington Post: Three Black Women Claim They Were Beaten By White Students On A Bus

[Destino]

Philosophy fight! Human nature, good or evil?

I'll go with mostly self interested with a few bright altruistic souls and some awful monsters mixed in. Cultures play a heavy role in deciding which traits are celebrated and defining subjective good, making some tribes kinder than others.

[Xameil]

Oh I see you think people are capable of being kind, but only to their own tribe? Is that it?

Okay, then what about the dozens of international charities like Save the Children, Doctors Without Borders, Action International, the Global Hunger Project, etc.? Are all their donors going against human nature?

Hell we even care about other species, which are definitely not people like us, look at all the animal rights and environmental groups. I suppose they're going against human nature too?

Or am I still missing your point?

Yes you are. Because I said unless there's a common enemy...and I also said most. You are pointing out a minority, and pointing out in times where there's a common enemy.

As for the groups you post out...again that's a real small minority, and alot if these groups are corrupt and don't do all that you think they do

[s0crates]

Look obviously people can be evil, there is no denying that, it's easy to give examples of human wickedness. Slavery, genocide, and war are more the rule of history than the exception.

But it's a mistake to thereby conclude we are naturally evil. There are too many examples of human goodness to say that.

Whenever there is war, there are also pacifists, protestors, doctors, and nursers. Whenever there is slavery, there are also abolitionists. Whenever there is genocide, there are people working to stop it. There are always good people as well as bad.

To say people are naturally good would be an obvious mistake, but so too is it a mistake to say we are naturally evil. The truth is more complicated than that.

[Xameil]

Look obviously people can be evil, there is no denying that, it's easy to give examples of human wickedness. Slavery, genocide, and war are more the rule of history than the exception.

But it's a mistake to thereby conclude we are naturally evil. There are too many examples of human goodness to say that.

Whenever there is war, there are also pacifists, protestors, doctors, and nursers. Whenever there is slavery, there are also abolitionists. Whenever there is genocide, there are people working to stop it. There are always good people as well as bad.

Whatever helps ya sleep at night...except I am very rational and my opinions can be changed with a reasonable debate. You have not given one, because I have seen more of the opposite.

But hey, if you live in that kind of world and have never had to see what really happens in most of the world and societies that's great for you. I however has seen the real world, and have seen enemies come together to fight off another enemy. I have also seen more people that would walk right by a crime then stop it unless it served to help their own needs.

[s0crates]

Whatever helps ya sleep at night...except I am very rational and my opinions can be changed with a reasonable debate. You have not given one, because I have seen more of the opposite.

But hey, if you live in that kind of world and have never had to see what really happens in most of the world and societies that's great for you. I however has seen the real world, and have seen enemies come together to fight off another enemy. I have also seen more people that would walk right by a crime then stop it unless it served to help their own needs.

Oh I've given you reasons, but nevermind those, allow me to try a different approach here.

Instead of considering the whole human race, let's consider just a single person: you. Are you naturally evil? Would you murder somebody of another tribe if there was no consequence? Would you own a slave of another race if you could? Would you ignore a victim you could easily help if it did not benefit you?

[The Sisko]

I guess you've never heard of Stanley Milgram's work Socrates? I don't think humans are intrinsically bad or evil but societal norms crossed with our inherent bias, fears, herd mentality and a thousand other things can produce some truly horrible results. The Holocaust, Rwanda, the Bosnian war, ISIS, slavery, etc. and all the while, the participants feel/think it's justified at the time they're doing these things. Honestly, there are times that I've felt we really don't deserve to exist as a species and then other times we can do things that make us seem like the best thing ever.

 

But what was this thread originally about again? 

[s0crates]

I guess you've never heard of Stanley Milgram's work Socrates? I don't think humans are intrinsically bad or evil but societal norms crossed with our inherent bias, fears, herd mentality and a thousand other things can produce some truly horrible results. The Holocaust, Rwanda, the Bosnian war, ISIS, slavery, etc. and all the while, the participants feel/think it's justified at the time they're doing these things. Honestly, there are times that I've felt we really don't deserve to exist as a species and then other times we can do things that make us seem like the best thing ever.

But what was this thread originally about again?

I've actually studied this exact question about human evil a fair amount, and you give very good examples of the human propensity for wickedness. And yes of course I'm aware of Milgram's work.

But I think you would be remiss to mention the holocaust without also mentioning the people of le Chambon, or the Rwandan genocide without also mentioning the Hotel des Mille Collines. The really remarkable fact is the human goodness we see in the face of such overwhelming evil.

And there were also some subjects who didn't go along with the authority in Milgram's experiments, and almost all the subjects displayed signs of distress and resistance to the authority, even if they did go along.

So I think it's too simplistic to say we are naturally evil and leave it at that. A theory I like suggests that we are basically good, but we are fragile, easily susceptible to evil due to manipulation, social pressure, etc.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

Philosophy fight! Human nature, good or evil?

Depends on the nature of the human you are asking. There's plenty of bad in the world but there's also plenty of good and neither one of them is hard to find. Just depends on which one you're looking for.

[Xameil]

Depends on the nature of the human you are asking. There's plenty of bad in the world but there's also plenty of good and neither one of them is hard to find. Just depends on which one you're looking for.

I agree with you to a point, but even the good sometimes will have the mentality when someone close to them becomes the victim.

Anyways...back on topic...the ****es were arrested and we'll see what happens. The university president is getting ALOT of heat, and since it is a government appointed position (I think)I wonder if they will have to resign

[mcsluggo]

Philosophy fight! Human nature, good or evil?

I'll go with mostly self interested with a few bright altruistic souls and some awful monsters mixed in. Cultures play a heavy role in deciding which traits are celebrated and defining subjective good, making some tribes kinder than others.

 

I volunteered at a soup kitchen last weekend JUST so that i could tell all of the rest of you suck-it.

 

 

(determining motives and how people gain from their behavior is a vexing debate)

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

I volunteered at a soup kitchen last weekend JUST so that i could tell all of the rest of you suck-it.

Tell the truth, you were scouting out homeless people for you and your rich friends to hunt for sport.

 

 

edit: Wait... I see what you did there.

[Destino]

(determining motives and how people gain from their behavior is a vexing debate)

 

But how much does it matter?  If a person helps others purely because it makes them feel better, they still help people.  If another wishes to help people for all the right reasons and generally holds all the right beliefs but ultimately does nothing, then all those righteous thoughts amount to nothing.  

 

We like to imagine our thoughts are supremely important but might that not simply be conceit?  I don't believe that precious little lie, so many cling to, that deep down on the inside themselves some sort of "real me".  The one no one understands and never sees but they are sure exists.  If it never emerges, it's more likely that it simply does not exist.  Our actions define us.  

[mcsluggo]

But how much does it matter?  If a person helps others purely because it makes them feel better, they still help people.  If another wishes to help people for all the right reasons and generally holds all the right beliefs but ultimately does nothing, then all those righteous thoughts amount to nothing.  

 

We like to imagine our thoughts are supremely important but might that not simply be conceit?  I don't believe that precious little lie, so many cling to, that deep down on the inside themselves some sort of "real me".  The one no one understands and never sees but they are sure exists.  If it never emerges, it's more likely that it simply does not exist.  Our actions define us.  

 

it doesn't matter.   except for discussion purposes.   and to economists.    

 

if you tell an economist that people are motivated by things like altruism or spite.... they usually will kick you in the nards, because it makes the modeling more difficult.  people motivated by money, THAT we can model.

[LeesburgSkinFan]

Three U. Of Albany black students indicted for giving false statements that white men hurling racial slurs attacked them.

http://m.timesunion.com/local/article/3-UAlbany-students-indicted-in-bus-attack-7388440.php

[Chew]

Three U. Of Albany black students indicted for giving false statements that white men hurling racial slurs attacked them.

 

 

smfh 

[Popeman38]

I love this quote from the lawyer (emphasis added):

Agudio's Albany attorney, Mark Mishler, called the charges "unfortunate" and "unwarranted" and cautioned against people jumping to the conclusion that they know what happened on the bus without having seen all of the evidence.

 

"It is also unfortunate that some in the media and public appear to have reached a conclusion as to what occurred in this incident without actually having the information needed in order to reach such a conclusion," Mishler said in a statement. "Ms. Agudio, an exemplary young woman, an excellent student who has never previously been in legal trouble, asks that people not rush to judgment in this matter. We appreciate those who have spoken out in support of Ms. Agudio. This case will now play out in the court system. We trust, in the end, that Ms. Agudio will be vindicated."

Funny, your client made false statements that led people to jump to conclusions and assume they knew what happened. Now she wants people to reserve judgment? 

[Riggo#44]

NFL player Tyreek Burwell, a tackle for the San Diego Chargers and the brother of Asha, even sent a violent threat via Twitter at one of the supposed attackers, though he deleted it shortly after.

 

So, shouldn't this be treated as a hate crime?

[Xameil]

Ok...so the funniest part of this whole thing is that the NY DA said that there would be no charges if the girls apologized for lying...

They refused to apologize.

I don't know which part of that is worse...

So, shouldn't this be treated as a hate crime?

That student he threatened decided to drop out of UALBANY because of the threat

[velocet]

I was with Kilmer on this. Something just didn't seem right about this story from the beginning.

 

Just comparing notes here:  did your reasonable doubt come from the claim that 10 -12 attacked 3, but the 3 victims weren't reported to be in wrecked shape?  It is that part alone that got the spidey--sense going for me.   

[grego]

Ok...so the funniest part of this whole thing is that the NY DA said that there would be no charges if the girls apologized for lying...

They refused to apologize.

I don't know which part of that is worse...

Unbelievable that they refused to apologize.

Bad decision on their part. Ridiculous offer on the DAs part.

False claims like this ought to be prosecuted.

[Predicto]

So, shouldn't this be treated as a hate crime?

 

No.  Not unless you can show that the tweet was motivated by racial animus against white people in general rather than by someone angry because they thought that someone else had attacked their sister.  

 

It might be prosecuted as a threat, but not as a hate crime.   All attacks and threats by persons of one race against persons of another race are not defined as hate crimes.  Painting a swastika on a synagogue and beating up random people for wearing yarmulkes - those are hate crimes.  Robbing a guy who happens to be Jewish because you want his money is not a hate crime - it is a robbery.  

 

This is a common misconception.   In reality, hate crime charges are rarely brought against anyone unless they are really obvious. 

[Destino]

Moral of the story "wait for the facts" is a wiser position to take than the oh-so popular "believe the victim."

[Major Harris]

This is a common misconception. In reality, hate crime charges are rarely brought against anyone unless they are really obvious.

Whatever. White guys are getting persecuted with hate crime charges all over the hemisphere.

[Barney B]

Whatever. White guys are getting persecuted with hate crime charges all over the hemisphere.

 

White people still represent the great majority of Americans. They're also probably the people whose way of life has been the most disrupted by recent demographic and economic shifts. Ever wonder why the wealthy never seem to get charged with hate crimes?

 

Anyway, a look at the statistics seems to support the idea that whites aren't really being singled out for prosecution.

[tshile]

  All attacks and threats by persons of one race against persons of another race are not defined as hate crimes. 

 

You'll just have to forgive those of us who have been trained to think otherwise.