McLoughan's big decision: what kind of team identity do we want?

[Warhead36]

As 2015 has come to an end, its obvious what kind of team we have at the moment: a pass first, offense driven team with a pretty bad defense. McC's teams, historically, have been smashmouth strong defensive teams with good run games. Everyone is talking about how we need to invest resources into fixing the D, and I do agree it needs some help, HOWEVER...

 

I actually think what we should focus on is trying to make the offense as dominant as possible. We're closer to an elite offense than we are to even an average defense.

 

The D needs a TON of help. The offense really only needs a couple of pieces: LG, C, possibly RB(I think the run game will get better with a better LG and C). Possibly a WR with size although I'm not opposed to keeping our current corps.

 

I'd rather have one dominant unit that the entire team can rally around, something that can carry our team. Build a top 5 offense and hope you can scrap together a league average D that can at least get a pass rush and force some takeaways(kinda like the Manning Colts or the 09 Saints).

 

All the great teams have an identity. I want our identity to be that of an elite offense built around the west coast passing game. Precision passing from Cousins, a brick wall OL, and receivers that can make plays.

 

It'll be interesting to see what McC does. I'd love to be in the meeting room of our FO the next couple of months to see what kind of questions are being asked and how they make their decisions.

 

What do you guys think?

[DC9]

From my post in the FA thread... which you clearly ripped off

 

http://es.redskins.com/topic/395547-the-2016-free-agency-thread-back-to-the-lab-doworkscot-wepaid-capspace-momsspaghetti/page-10

 

Here's the thing about team building... we were supposed to be a smash mouth team (San Fran and Seattle), that was good in the run game, able to take shots when needed, and good at stopping the run.

 

IF we are shifting identities, and want to be more of an "air it out" type of a team, then we're going to need to have a defense that is built to hold a lead.  Which means pass rushers and coverage/ball skills in the secondary. (Look at the Polian/Manning Colts from a few years ago).  Those Colts teams didn't really finish poorly in run defense (from my recolection) but that's because Peyton would put them up quickly and they'd be passing.  Hence, Bob Sanders, Dwight Freeney, and Robert Mathis. But if memory serves, if you could get the run game going they struggled.

 

If we are still building a smash mouth type team, I'm reasonably confident, as GHH said, we're going to be waiving goodbye to DJax or Garcon (or possibly both).  But that frees up some money to fix the running game and maybe get Pot Roast for another year or two.  What it also does is limit your weapons. So you'll need to get a weapon that will take the coverage away from Reed.

 

This will be an interesting offseason to see where we go identity-wise.

 

EDIT:  But to answer your questions - if we go on to be a "offensive juggernaut" type team, we'll need a legit running back, at least 1 more legit linemen, and a premier safety.  Premier safety is the key, because he will for you to hold the ball just a bit longer.

 

I think we can get by at pass rusher for now if Gallette is healthy with 91 and 94. 

 

We'd also need some youth at interior defensive line to get some push.

[Warhead36]

Heh, I remember browsing through that post, and agreeing with it for the most part.

 

I think it warrants its own thread, in regards to team building for this year/the future and the ID we want.

[Reaper Skins]

I doubt we keep both Garcon and Jackson.  So our passing offense will probably take at least an initial step back.

 

Scott M's mentality is based on finding "all around good football players."  Since our defense is farther behind and has less "all around good football players", it stands to reason that this is the area he will focus most of his attention on.  

 

Were still building a foundation and filling out our depth chart.  i anticipate 70 percent of our offseason moves to be for defensive players who are good at special teams and are solid tacklers.

[Warhead36]

I've been hard on Garcon all year, but I was starting to change my tune after the last couple of weeks.

 

At this point he is what he is: solid possession WR, will make the occasional tough catch, but isn't really a guy teams are afraid of. He's paid twice as much as he's worth. For like $4-5 Mil, I'd be fine keeping him. For $8 Mil+ you need a Pro Bowl caliber guy.

 

Jackson is frustrating. What he does is incredibly difficult to find, but he's a bit of a hot dog and tends to cadillac it(like yesterday's should have been TD). He's also quite expensive for a guy who's very good but not a superstar.

 

If we can retain both at reduced costs(without resorting to Vinny Cerrato style screw the future for short term restructures)I'd be okay with bringing back both. I'd also be perfectly fine with outright cutting Garcon because I believe his skillset is very much replaceable. I don't think we can afford to cut Jackson, but I'd look to try to find a guy in the 2nd-3rd round of the draft with a similar skillset that we can groom.

[MattFancy]

I doubt we keep both Garcon and Jackson.  So our passing offense will probably take at least an initial step back.

 

Scott M's mentality is based on finding "all around good football players."  Since our defense is farther behind and has less "all around good football players", it stands to reason that this is the area he will focus most of his attention on.  

 

Were still building a foundation and filling out our depth chart.  i anticipate 70 percent of our offseason moves to be for defensive players who are good at special teams and are solid tacklers.

 

Honest question, why do you think we lose either of those WRs? We have a bunch of cap space and I just feel like McCloughan and Jay like where this team is going. I don't think we'll release any guys that are still productive. Yes, Jackson missed some games with injuries, but when he was out there, our offense was much better. And Garcon's cap is a little high next year, but he's a solid contributor and is not afraid to go over the middle to make a catch. Seems like there's less and less of those WRs in the league anymore.

[Warhead36]

Honest question, why do you think we lose either of those WRs? We have a bunch of cap space and I just feel like McCloughan and Jay like where this team is going. I don't think we'll release any guys that are still productive. Yes, Jackson missed some games with injuries, but when he was out there, our offense was much better. And Garcon's cap is a little high next year, but he's a solid contributor and is not afraid to go over the middle to make a catch. Seems like there's less and less of those WRs in the league anymore.

Well you only have X amount of cap space, and you always need to keep some in reserve to lock up young guys for the long term(i.e. Jordan Reed).

 

You gotta be efficient with how you build your team. A guy making near $10 Mil at one position means another position you have to go super cheap. That works once you start drafting well for a few years and can plug in play talented rookies/young players but we're not quite there yet.

[MattFancy]

Well you only have X amount of cap space, and you always need to keep some in reserve to lock up young guys for the long term(i.e. Jordan Reed).

 

You gotta be efficient with how you build your team. A guy making near $10 Mil at one position means another position you have to go super cheap. That works once you start drafting well for a few years and can plug in play talented rookies/young players but we're not quite there yet.

 

Oh, I get that completely. I just feel like the FO won't do much to upset the great chemistry the team has going right now. I can see moving on from unproductive high cost guys (read: Hatcher, Jason), but I think Garcon and Jackson will be back next year because of what they can provide the offense. Garcon isn't flashy, but it's hard to find guys like him that play so hard at WR and go across the middle for a big catch.

[Warhead36]

Oh, I get that completely. I just feel like the FO won't do much to upset the great chemistry the team has going right now. I can see moving on from unproductive high cost guys (read: Hatcher, Jason), but I think Garcon and Jackson will be back next year because of what they can provide the offense. Garcon isn't flashy, but it's hard to find guys like him that play so hard at WR and go across the middle for a big catch.

Yeah chemistry is definitely important. I would love to see Cousins next year with this same skill player group after working with them for an off season.

 

If I'm McC and Gruden I sit down with Jackson in particular. I tell him that I want him to be a leader on this team moving forward, but that means you show up to every OTA, every mini camp, no taking time off to film a reality TV show. He might be a bit of a hot dog but if you empower him and give him responsibility, he might just surprise you.

[Jumbo]

Great thread! I'm kinda being mainstream and focusing on the defense...but I had already started questioning the smash mouth run game identity this  preseason and hear what you're laying down. Should be a great discussion.  I'm still more about shoring up the D substantially and fixing that run game to where it's at least back to "workman" level, but can see alternatives.

 

I'll expand more alter, but right now, I would want to keep Djax and garcon, but that's also not having a list of solid available possible substitutes in my head to consider at the moment. My arguments end up with em wanting both to remain as of now, with Djax "more so.".

[Warhead36]

On the flip side, just to discuss the other side: maybe you think with Cousins, Reed, an improved OL, and a better run game, your offense can muster 20 points a game, and if you invest heavily(draft picks and FA $)in a D you can build another Seahawk/49er type team?

 

The problem with that is it's going to take 2-3 years worth of drafts to get our D to that level. We're just that far behind the talent curve.

[petedaddy]

definitely agree we are much closer to building an offensive juggernaut

 

i would be fine in letting garcon go if we can get someone like alshon jeffery, or i'm also fine in keeping garcon if he can restructure and accept slightly reduced role

 

my biggest want is for a running back who can run and catch, i think that would open up so much on offense, right now when alf is in the game, a defense doesn't even need to worry about him in the passing game

[SanDog_Skins]

Speed, Speed and more speed. We need gunners on Defense. The Redskins D was slow as molasses yesterday.The more reps the defense had the slower they got. It was no wonder that the defenses first drive against Rodgers was a success. They had their first and last hit against Rodgers that resulted in a safety.

 

I'm tired of the offense getting these fantastic leads only for our defense to get worse and worse as the game goes along.

[petedaddy]

if we could just be top tier at something on defense, then you can mask a lot of other things

 

i would say we are closest at being top tier at pass rush if we can get junior galette back, i would like to get a little more out of kerrigan, but preston smith was starting to come on late

 

we just don't have an "animal" on defense, i mean obviously clay matthews is one of the best players in the league, but you look at what he can do, he just seems to be in every play trying to do something, or look at what sean lee did to us earlier in the year, we just don't have anyone on defense that plays anywhere close to that level, we have a lot of workers, and you need those guys too, but we have to have someone who can be counted on to make an elite play at a regular level

 

i guess as redskins fans it has been since sean taylor that we have seen anyone play like that for us on defense, but it would be nice to have again

[SanDog_Skins]

definitely agree we are much closer to building an offensive juggernaut

 

i would be fine in letting garcon go if we can get someone like alshon jeffery, or i'm also fine in keeping garcon if he can restructure and accept slightly reduced role

 

my biggest want is for a running back who can run and catch, i think that would open up so much on offense, right now when alf is in the game, a defense doesn't even need to worry about him in the passing game

I think yesterday is where the lack of run game finally got us in trouble. As much as we have praised Cousins on playing at an elite level with almost no running game, once you enter the playoffs these defenses become that much better. The Packers weren't ever concerned with our run game at all and almost exclusively focused on the passing game.

we just don't have an "animal" on defense, i mean obviously clay matthews is one of the best players in the league, but you look at what he can do, he just seems to be in every play trying to do something, or look at what sean lee did to us earlier in the year, we just don't have anyone on defense that plays anywhere close to that level, we have a lot of workers, and you need those guys too, but we have to have someone who can be counted on to make an elite play at a regular level

 

i guess as redskins fans it has been since sean taylor that we have seen anyone play like that for us on defense, but it would be nice to have again

I always thought Orakpo would be that animal. It never came to be however

[DC9]

On the flip side, just to discuss the other side: maybe you think with Cousins, Reed, an improved OL, and a better run game, your offense can muster 20 points a game, and if you invest heavily(draft picks and FA $)in a D you can build another Seahawk/49er type team?

 

The problem with that is it's going to take 2-3 years worth of drafts to get our D to that level. We're just that far behind the talent curve.

 

This is why the most premier position on a defense is FS.  If you find a legit one, it can change your entire team.

[Skinsinparadise]

They could use a tall #1 WR but that's easier said then done.    If he falls maybe Treadwell in the draft or on the off chance the Bears let Jeffrey go to FA.  But I am ok with the status quo at WR.

 

 Sticking on offense, I am more concerned with C and LG.  Besides run blocking issues -- is this O line overrated on pass blocking?  Kirk for starters gets rid of the ball fast which helps   Against Dallas on MNF which has a decent D line and yesterday against GB they got manhandled.   Even in the last Philly game, Fletcher Cox was beating the O line like a drum.   GB like Dallas was killing them with stunts which evidently confused them.  I wasn't shocked that they couldn't punch it in on the half yard line yesterday.  

 

Scot has said he wants big boys/dominant lines.  To that end, I think the O line isn't finished yet.   On the other side of the ball, IMO they need to find their Aaron Donald type (Mohammad Wilkerson?), maybe an NT too.  I hate to breakup the chemistry between Knighton and Baker and Knighton seems to be a leader but I don't see him as the solution.  I think the most overrated player by the media maybe because its a cool story and he's a colorful personality is Will Compton.  Not that I think he's a bad player but he's not IMO big time.  He doesn't take over a game the way London would do, and Pierce before him.  We saw what a dominant MLB could do against the Redskins:  Sean Lee, Matthews. Kuechly

 

We IMO need a dominant type MLB to stuff the run.  I don't think Compton is the guy -- though he's a good underdog story, etc.

[Burgold]

I think a Gruden team will always lean towards pass first. That's not a bad thing. He did impress me with how heavily they were able to go against tendency at the beginning of the season. I think they know the balance is off. They just don't believe in Morris. Unfortunately, Alfred didn't give them enough reasons to change their mind.

 

I think we are going to try to be pass heavy with a good all around back, maybe an faster Earnest Byner, type of guy. I think we'll still tinker with the line and I'm not convinced that our starting running back is on the team today. In fact, I could see Morris and Thomas not being re-signed, Thompson being cut... he just doesn't produce enough big plays for the injury risk. Good receiver, good runner, but little guys like him need a lot of WOW plays and he hasn't produced enough of them. Jones returns and will compete. 

 

It'll be interesting to see how the draft works out because I don't think McCloughan will look into free agency for a fix at RB.

[TheGreatBuzz]

Question:  How does a player retiring effect the cap?  I'm asking because I saw a report that Hatcher is considering it.  I'm fine letting him go either way but how does a player retiring vs getting cut effect things?

 

I'd really like to focus more on D this offseason.  Sure our run game isn't lighting up the world but I'm overall happy with our offense.  Defense is another beast.  Though I will say I was pleasantly surprised with our defense the last few weeks until the 2nd quarter yesterday.  But a lot of that seemed to be the playcalling too.  Not sure what was going on there. 

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

What do you guys think?

 

Continue to build the trenches on both D and O.  I would like to see us go defense either DT or DE with the first round pick and second round pick.  We need a center too, but those are late round picks.  

 

Our defense sucks on generating a pass rush to compensate for a weak secondary.  Look at all the playoff teams, what do the majority have in common?  Great or above average defenses.  Seven of the 12 playoff teams have top 10 defenses (great).  Three rank in the top 15 (above average, with Bengals at #11, MN at #13 and the Packers at #15).

 

Only two playoff teams rank below average on defense, Redskins (#28) and Pitt (#21).  Overall offensively, we rank #20 and Pitt ranks #3.  So I don't think we are as close to being an "elite" offense as you think.  Granted, we didn't have DJax for nine games, Reed missed games, etc.  But we can't run the ball for ****.

 

Five of the 12 playoff teams are top 10 in rushing (Panthers, Seahawks, Vikings, Chiefs, Cards).  Four teams rank 11-16 in rushing (Packers, Bengals, Texans, Steelers) and two of those lost their stud RBs for the season (Texans and Steelers) and the Packers Lacy had issues/injuries/etc.  

 

The formula Scot is used to works.  It doesn't always mean a team built on defense and running the ball wins, but it works.  They always say you have to be able to play defense and run the ball come January.  Which is why we see the majority of playoff teams having above average to great success in doing those two things.

[Skinsinparadise]

This is why the most premier position on a defense is FS.  If you find a legit one, it can change your entire team.

 

Good point especially in this division where you arguably have 2 of the best receivers in the NFL.   I doubt KC lets Berry get to FA. Maybe Weddle but he's 30 so not sure he fits Scot's profile.  So I gather this won't be an easy get.

 

I haven't studied the draft much yet but I've been reading its according to most a decent draft for safety especially compared to last year.

[zoony]

I don't think that's how you build a team. Get good players. The rest will take care of itself.

Would there not have been a place for Ray Lewis on the 1999 Rams, the greatest show on turf?

What about if Joe Montana would have played in the 2000 Ravens. Would he have hurt their identity?

Jerry Ruce wouldn't have fit in with the 85 Bears?

Just get good players. The end.

[Morrison J]

Should we be expecting an end of year press conference from McCloughan in the next few days? Would like to hear his takes on the roster as it stands. 

[skins island connection]

I don't think that's how you build a team. Get good players. The rest will take care of itself.

Would there not have been a place for Ray Lewis on the 1999 Rams, the greatest show on turf?

What about if Joe Montana would have played in the 2000 Ravens. Would he have hurt their identity?

Jerry Ruce wouldn't have fit in with the 85 Bears?

Just get good players. The end.

 

 Jerry Rice on one side and Willie Gault on the other?  hmmm,,,

 If only they had a QB who could get them the ball., maybe.

[Aireskoi]

Scot is building a bully.  He wan'ts a team that has big men who won't wear down late in the season.

 

I don't see him changing his mind because the offense didn't run the ball well this year.  

 

Jay wants to stay balanced, so I expect the offense will get to the point where he doesn't have to tip his hand with personnel.

 

The defense needs play-makers at every level.  Draft the best defensive player on the board in the 1st three rounds.