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The immigration thread: American Melting Pot or Get off my Lawn

Burgold

By Burgold
in The Tailgate

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skinny21

skinny21

Posted
Posted (edited)

@twaYeah, as I was responding to you I considered mentioning the fact that it could be one of those cases of pushing the boundaries of the executive/judiciary.  Doesn't change the fact that he shoulders the blame if something happens though.  

Edited by skinny21
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Momma There Goes That Man

Momma There Goes That Man

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, twa said:

There are numerous things he can do w/o a new EO to accomplish most of it.

I think he wants the court kerfuffle.

He's Colonel Jessup in A Few Good Men, he wants everyone to know he gave an order and it was followed and that was the end of it because he's untouchable and shouldn't be questioned

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PeterMP

PeterMP

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Riggo-toni said:

The damage from this is likely irreversible, and an inexcusable self inflicted wound.

 

In 2035, when we have real competition for the #1 economy  in the world (yes, currently China is larger, but that is just a result of them having more people and not a true measure of economic strength), you can point to the decision to role this out in the manner that it was with the unorganization of it, the suddenness of it, and the extremism of it (e.g. initially including green card holders) coupled with on the record in the public domain comments of people like Sessions and Bannon on all immigration.

Edited by PeterMP
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LD0506

LD0506

Posted
Posted

As much as I realize this is not a popular opinion these days, I still have faith that the vast majority of everyday Americans are more decent and stronger than this wave of mental instability sweeping the airwaves.

 

If you truly want to stand against it you need to start with yourself, BE the kind of American you want others to be.

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balki1867

balki1867

Posted
Posted
13 minutes ago, LD0506 said:

As much as I realize this is not a popular opinion these days, I still have faith that the vast majority of everyday Americans are more decent and stronger than this wave of mental instability sweeping the airwaves.

 

If you truly want to stand against it you need to start with yourself, BE the kind of American you want others to be.

 

I'm a child of immigrants and I fully agree with you.  Unfortunately, this isn't as simple as electing someone different in 4 years and rolling back the last 4 weeks of EOs. This country has proven itself to be unstable politically and our trading partners and potential immigrants will remember this. Mexico will expand their trade partnerships- not to spite us, but to protect themselves. Future skilled immigrants, who once believed that getting a green card was the first meaningful step towards citizenship, now see that nothing is really certain until you get citizenship and they might choose not to come here.  Even if they do, they won't truly participate in our economy (no major purchases) until they have that security.

 

This isn't some 'Land of Opportunity' nonsense.  We've maintained our position because we've been able to attract the best and brightest from all over the world. We're at risk of losing that distinction.

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LD0506

LD0506

Posted
Posted

IMO it starts right at home, right on your own doorstep. Get involved, know your neighbors, pay attention to local politics, just TALK to people. Communication is the beginning of anything, and as much as I enjoy yanking someones chain I am talking about communication, back n forth two way kind talk. We are all guilty on some level of living in our own bubbles, being insular is a warm fuzzy thing to do, safe, protected, familiar, but we could all stand to step outside that at times. Reach out and when necessary prick the others bubbles.

 

And I am just the prick to do that

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Riggo-toni

Riggo-toni

Posted
Posted

In 1492, Columbus' voyage set the stage for a massive Spanish colonial empire which would soon bring in massive amounts of silver from the new world. In that same year, however, Spain expelled its Jewish population. What you may not know is that the Ottoman Sultan sent his fleet to Spain to pick up Jewish refugees to offer resettlement in the Ottoman empire. Left depleted of most of their best financial minds, Spain's newfound treasure brought them massive inflation, whereas the Ottoman empire nearly captured Vienna.

For all its conquered territories, Spain's time at the top of the food chain was brief, and they've spent most of their history since as a second rate European power, dependent on Hapsburg and Hohenzollern relatives in Central Europe to be of any relevance. Kicking out the best and brightest to preserve your "Christian/civic" society/culture is a terrible move with deleterious effects that last for GENERATIONS.  Thanks OBannon.

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tshile

tshile

Posted
Posted
7 hours ago, Riggo-toni said:

The damage from this is likely irreversible, and an inexcusable self inflicted wound.

 

the science and tech industries have been pleading to allow more people in on h1bs because the talent pool was so inadequate.

 

Trump went the opposite direction.

 

People in this country think the problem (in regards to these sectors) is that immigrants are coming in and doing jobs for cheaper. That's totally inaccurate, the problem is that our talent pool (in terms of US citizens) is just inadequate. It just is. Pay isn't the issue in these sectors, it's ability.

 

I don't know whether the damage is irreversible or not, but I know that we can't just fill these positions. We do not have enough people that are smart enough, work hard enough, and are capable.

 

 

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balki1867

balki1867

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, tshile said:

People in this country think the problem (in regards to these sectors) is that immigrants are coming in and doing jobs for cheaper. That's totally inaccurate, the problem is that our talent pool (in terms of US citizens) is just inadequate. It just is. Pay isn't the issue in these sectors, it's ability.

 

 

People focus on the number of immigrants in STEM jobs, but if you also factored to this the number of people who are the children of immigrants, it'd be a truly shocking assessment of how dependent we are on outside talent.

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PeterMP

PeterMP

Posted
Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

the science and tech industries have been pleading to allow more people in on h1bs because the talent pool was so inadequate.

 

Trump went the opposite direction.

 

People in this country think the problem (in regards to these sectors) is that immigrants are coming in and doing jobs for cheaper. That's totally inaccurate, the problem is that our talent pool (in terms of US citizens) is just inadequate. It just is. Pay isn't the issue in these sectors, it's ability.

 

I don't know whether the damage is irreversible or not, but I know that we can't just fill these positions. We do not have enough people that are smart enough, work hard enough, and are capable.

 

Even if there is competition and it lowers wages (which I think it does in some cases), it ignores the fact that in many cases the people are competing anyway.

 

For things other than a specific areas (restaurant servers, bar tenders, doctors, dentist, etc), US workers are competing with international labor.  Would you rather be competing against somebody else in the US or somebody else in a lower wage nation where you have to compete against the wage difference to do things like buy a house?

 

As a nation, would we rather have the winner of the competition (and their economic gain from winning the competition) living in the US or another country?

 

To say, we can protect US jobs/wages by having the people we normally bring into the country stay in China, India, Japan, Europe, Canada, etc makes it seem like they aren't competing against US workers and affecting the wages of US workers if they live in those countries, which is just false.

Edited by PeterMP
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twa

twa

Posted
Posted
29 minutes ago, balki1867 said:

 

People focus on the number of immigrants in STEM jobs, but if you also factored to this the number of people who are the children of immigrants, it'd be a truly shocking assessment of how dependent we are on outside talent.

 

Doesn't speak very highly of our education system or culture does it?

 

Then again it doesn't speak too well of the places they flee either. :ols:

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PeterMP

PeterMP

Posted
Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, twa said:

 

Doesn't speak very highly of our education system or culture does it?

 

Then again it doesn't speak too well of the places they flee either. :ols:

 

Realistically, I think it a lot of the issue with recruiting to STEM is related to how we compensate people with Wall Street people and bankers making a lot of (the) money.

 

I went to grad school with a guy that used the fact that he had a college degree in science to get into the US.  He got a MS in chemistry in the US, then got a job in the chemical industry, got a green card, and then went back to school and got an MBA with a focus on finance and then left the chemical industry.

 

This all took years, but I knew him as a first year grad student and that was his plan from the start, but he knew he'd never be let into the country and be given a green card if he said he wanted to get an MBA and work in the banking industry.

 

But he wanted to get rich and he felt he had a better chance of doing it in the banking/finance industry then as a chemist.

 

I think a lot of Americans have the same thoughts (internet/computers are a little different then).

Edited by PeterMP
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