The Gun Control Debate Thread

[Jabbyrwock]

5 minutes ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

This thread needs more educated people to post in it

 

[Larry]

13 minutes ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

 

Or we could raise the legal age to purchase semi-automatic rifles to 21 (or higher for both rifles and handguns) and require purchase permits with stricter background checks.  This thread needs more educated people to post in it, including you.

Not saying it's a bad idea. Not sure how much impact it would have, on mass killings in general. 
 

Yes, this case involved an 18 year old, who purchased his own weapon, in his own name. 
 

But I seem to recall at least some, where "how they got the weapon" was, they knew an irresponsible gun owner who left weapons laying around. 
 

And I seem to recall at least one where a relative bought it for him. 
 

So, while raising the age would have made a difference in this case, (and I think it's a reasonable proposal. Should be on the table.), I'm not sure how much impact it would have, in general. 

[Redskins Diehard]

24 minutes ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

 

Or we could raise the legal age to purchase semi-automatic rifles to 21 (or higher for both rifles and handguns) and require purchase permits with stricter background checks.  This thread needs more educated people to post in it, including you.

Bingo

3 minutes ago, Larry said:

Not saying it's a bad idea. Not sure how much impact it would have, on mass killings in general. 
 

Yes, this case involved an 18 year old, who purchased his own weapon, in his own name. 
 

But I seem to recall at least some, where "how they got the weapon" was, they knew an irresponsible gun owner who left weapons laying around. 
 

And I seem to recall at least one where a relative bought it for him. 
 

So, while raising the age would have made a difference in this case, (and I think it's a reasonable proposal. Should be on the table.), I'm not sure how much impact it would have, in general. 

I posted a link to a Washington Post article that provides data suggesting raising the age would make a big difference

[Burgold]

Amazing how well something worked that didn’t do anything. In fairness, the lapse of the ban is only one factor.
 

Since 2004, the NRA’s actions with their Republican accomplices have controlled the gun narrative in this country. Together, they weakened, defunded, stripped, and had had hundreds of working laws reversed. All their actions have made the situation worse. 

[Larry]

Just tossing this info in here, though.  

 

 

There's no big, stunning, simple, conclusion, here.  Several facts, without a big stunning conclusion.  

 

He does point out.  During the AWB?  Production of ARs and AKs increased.  By a bunch.  The numbers of them in people's hands, went up by a bunch.  

 

(One surprising thing he throws out, in here?  at 10:00.  "I wanna say that, In 2016, there were just over 4 million rifles produced in the US.  And 61% of them were ARs."  

 

Anyway.  Thought it was at least worth listening to.  

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

We’re gonna keep doing this my way no matter what and I’m also not responsible for what happens and don’t bring up this biggie ass check from the gun lobbyists that I’m waving around.

[purbeast]

On 5/29/2022 at 8:55 PM, Larry said:

Not saying it's a bad idea. Not sure how much impact it would have, on mass killings in general. 
 

Yes, this case involved an 18 year old, who purchased his own weapon, in his own name. 
 

But I seem to recall at least some, where "how they got the weapon" was, they knew an irresponsible gun owner who left weapons laying around. 
 

And I seem to recall at least one where a relative bought it for him. 
 

So, while raising the age would have made a difference in this case, (and I think it's a reasonable proposal. Should be on the table.), I'm not sure how much impact it would have, in general. 

And wouldn't have preventing this incident, been a good thing?  It would have been 1 less mass shooting than the total number thus far if it was prevented because this crazy kid couldn't get a gun.

 

I'm not really following your logic.

 

I don't think ANYONE is saying that ANYTHING will prevent all of these things from happening 100%.  The idea is to make them as infrequent as humanly possible.

[Larry]

1 hour ago, purbeast said:

And wouldn't have preventing this incident, been a good thing?  It would have been 1 less mass shooting than the total number thus far if it was prevented because this crazy kid couldn't get a gun.

 

I'm not really following your logic.

 

I don't think ANYONE is saying that ANYTHING will prevent all of these things from happening 100%.  The idea is to make them as infrequent as humanly possible.

 

just pointing out how quickly you moved from "preventing 1 is good" to "infrequent as humanly possible".  

 

And my point is that the proposal (Which I specifically state I'm not against) might accomplish #1, but I suspect is so far from #2 that you won't be able to even see it.   

[purbeast]

34 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

just pointing out how quickly you moved from "preventing 1 is good" to "infrequent as humanly possible".  

 

And my point is that the proposal (Which I specifically state I'm not against) might accomplish #1, but I suspect is so far from #2 that you won't be able to even see it.   

Fact is, we won't be "able to see it" when it comes to anything actually working.  You can't quantify mass shooting that don't happen.

 

You also can't quantify "infrequent as humanly possible".  It's a concept.  It's also going to take multiple different regulations/rules/things to make this happen.  It's not going to happen by simply changing the age at which you can legally obtain a gun.  That is just part of the puzzle and a very solid/easy first step to take that would have prevented just one of these incidents to happen (that we know of), which is already a win IMO.

Edited May 31, 2022 by purbeast

[Cooked Crack]

 

[Redskins Diehard]

11 hours ago, Larry said:

Just tossing this info in here, though.  

 

 

There's no big, stunning, simple, conclusion, here.  Several facts, without a big stunning conclusion.  

 

He does point out.  During the AWB?  Production of ARs and AKs increased.  By a bunch.  The numbers of them in people's hands, went up by a bunch.  

 

(One surprising thing he throws out, in here?  at 10:00.  "I wanna say that, In 2016, there were just over 4 million rifles produced in the US.  And 61% of them were ARs."  

 

Anyway.  Thought it was at least worth listening to.  

Manufacturers figured out pretty quickly how to make ban compliant guns.  "Pre ban" guns became more expensive because they were not produced anymore but you could buy a functionally equivalent weapon.  Some models, like "AR-15" were banned by name. So things were called an "XM-15" and were legal again. 

 

The part of that bill that would have some impact was not actually related to the weapon itself but to the magazines that went into it.  I don't know why that can't be changed by Executive Order now just like when Trump banned the bump stocks

[steve09ru]

Part of the spike in mass murders may be contributed to how they were calculated previously.  Not subscribed so can’t read into this but if anyone does, can you paraphrase? https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/12/03/what-makes-a-mass-shooting-in-america/

looks like it used to be 4 deaths and in early 2010s was changed to something.  Could be why we see a bike spike over in recent years as well.

 

I will say that the number of Individuals with prior known mental health issues is alarming.  
 

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/mass-shootings-mother-jones-full-data/

 

 

[Llevron]

10 hours ago, steve09ru said:

Part of the spike in mass murders may be contributed to how they were calculated previously.  Not subscribed so can’t read into this but if anyone does, can you paraphrase? https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/12/03/what-makes-a-mass-shooting-in-america/

looks like it used to be 4 deaths and in early 2010s was changed to something.  Could be why we see a bike spike over in recent years as well.

 

I will say that the number of Individuals with prior known mental health issues is alarming.  
 

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/mass-shootings-mother-jones-full-data/

 

 

 

Didn't read the link but NPR says a mass shooting is still only a mass shooting when 4 or more are shot or killed. It could be s similar numbers trick though. I doubt it. But I wouldn't really put it past a group to play funny numbers like that if possible. 

[tshile]

12 hours ago, Redskins Diehard said:

I don't know why that can't be changed by Executive Order now just like when Trump banned the bump stocks

Because the legal challenge would drop before the ink from Biden’s signature dried. 
 

Banning bump stocks via EO was easy because no one was going to challenge it. If someone had wanted to, it may have not held up. 
 

 

[bearrock]

13 hours ago, Redskins Diehard said:

The part of that bill that would have some impact was not actually related to the weapon itself but to the magazines that went into it.  I don't know why that can't be changed by Executive Order now just like when Trump banned the bump stocks

 

1 hour ago, tshile said:

Because the legal challenge would drop before the ink from Biden’s signature dried. 
 

Banning bump stocks via EO was easy because no one was going to challenge it. If someone had wanted to, it may have not held up. 
 

 

 

Bump stock ban is currently before SCOTUS after having narrowly survived challenges below.  There were challenges from the get go, challengers just haven't won yet.

 

Also, bump stock ban is agency's interpretation of bump stock falling under the definition of machine gun, which is still banned under the law.  Not sure if there is currently a law on the books that could serve as a similar conduit for some type of a magazine ban via EO.

[skinsmarydu]

Regarding Laura Dingdongraham...and her thinking pot causes shootings...

I'm too glued to my chair to bother.  Now, clear that.  Then, re-pack and pass it.

[Cooked Crack]

 

 

[Larry]

25 minutes ago, Cooked Crack said:

 

 

 

. . . at least, as long as we have power, they're not going anywhere,  

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

20 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

. . . at least, as long as we have power, they're not going anywhere,  

 

I'm all for teachers being able to be armed, if they choose to do so.  My best friend lives in Ohio and his wife is a 4th grade teacher, she said she would be fine with it.  Overall, do I think it will make a difference, maybe not.  Maybe it will too.  I think there is already too much put on teachers these days, but if some want to do this, more power to them.

 

Edited June 2, 2022 by Dont Taze Me Bro

[TradeTheBeal!]

My best friend’s wife says “nah”.

[The Evil Genius]

Considering a lot of high school teachers get **** stolen by high school students, I can't see how having guns on them (or with their stuff) helps. Especially if it's locked up to keep from being stolen. Just feels like we're adding more gasoline to the fire. 

Edited June 2, 2022 by The Evil Genius

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

4 minutes ago, TradeTheBeal! said:

My best friend’s wife says “nah”.

 

You have no friends, so I know this statement is false  

 

And for the record, she was for carrying in the past, if she does, who knows, my boy has been a big supporter of it though, for a while.  

[purbeast]

If guns were an option for teachers to carry in my son's elementary school, he would immediately be pulled and moved to another school.

 

There is zero place for guns in schools.  And they would inevitably get into the hands of students.

[The Evil Genius]

I suspect you'd also see a large exodus of teachers. Maybe that's the GOP plan though. 

[Larry]

46 minutes ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

I'm all for teachers being able to be armed, if they choose to do so.  My best friend lives in Ohio and his wife is a 4th grade teacher, she said she would be fine with it.  Overall, do I think it will make a difference, maybe not.  Maybe it will too.  I think there is already too much put on teachers these days, but if some want to do this, more power to them.

 

I look at the national numbers of kids finding guns, using guns, accidental shootings, suicides, mistaken identities, . . . . 

Versus the odds that Teacher X will ever be in a room with a school shooter?  

 

I think it's guaranteed that, for every #2, you'll have 100 #1's.  Maybe 1,000:1.  

 

But then, it's not like the people pushing this give a **** how many kids get shot.  They care about pushing an agenda.  And frankly, kids getting shot is actually a part of said agenda.