The Gun Control Debate Thread

[tshile]

1 hour ago, Springfield said:

I’m interested in the responsible gun owner’s recommendation on mental health issues becaue I don’t believe I’ve actually heard one yet.

Increase funding and study it. Allow tracking and see what happens. Put more money into the school systems and poverty .

 

i don’t know if anything, leagally speaking, will keep a kid from taking his fathers handgun to school and shooting people. Probably help with the overall issue

[Larry]

3 hours ago, clskinsfan said:

 

Then why are responsible gun owners recommendations in regards to mental health issues ignored? Why arent the current gun laws enforced? And why are recommended solutions from gun owners laughed at. YOU may not be anti gun. But to be honest with you the NRA, as radical as they are, are about the only protection gun owners and outdoors sportsman have at this point. The entire media and agenda from the left is leading to a single option. And that is disarmament. Something that will only disarm law abiding citizens. Criminals are criminals. By the very definition they break the law. You really think passing another one of any kind would make a difference? 

 

2 hours ago, Springfield said:

I’m interested in the responsible gun owner’s recommendation on mental health issues becaue I don’t believe I’ve actually heard one yet.

 

1 hour ago, tshile said:

Increase funding and study it. Allow tracking and see what happens. Put more money into the school systems and poverty .

 

Yeah, it really sucks the way the left are constantly fighting against those things.  Sure glad that we've got the NRA to defend us against the left's desire to ignore all of those.  

[LD0506]

I didn't see a better thread going to say something about the "March for Our Lives" rally going on in DC this weekend, so I'm dumping it here (sue me!)

 

These are the Halls, good neighbors and great friends of mine, getting ready to head of to DC this weekend to attend. They're in their 70's and by all rights could just be spectators but their idealistic compassion knows no bounds. I'm personally thrilled that they are the ones representing our neighborhood and everyone that could not go themself. For every person you see on the street this weekend, know that many more are there in spirit.

 

[clskinsfan]

12 hours ago, Springfield said:

I’m interested in the responsible gun owner’s recommendation on mental health issues becaue I don’t believe I’ve actually heard one yet.

 

Our stance is to ENFORCE THE CURRENT LAWS in regards to mental health and current penalties for illegal possession. 

http://www.ncsl.org/research/civil-and-criminal-justice/possession-of-a-firearm-by-the-mentally-ill.aspx

 

The current laws are not enforced. And if they are in rare circumstances. The criminal gets a slap on the wrist, leaves the courthouse and buys a gun on the next street corner. OR FROM A GUN SHOP. Only 40% of the people that LIE on a gun application are prosecuted. We are talking about people that are ALREADY felons. And the gun laws do nothing to stop them from getting another gun. BECAUSE THEY DONT CARE, they wont face any major penalty for it. It is VERY rare for me to call a CNN article fair and balanced. But this one actually is somewhat:

https://www.cnn.com/2016/01/09/politics/obama-executive-orders-gun-control-enforcement-gap/index.html

 

In the ultimate slap in the face. Obama pardoned 107 gun violators while shouting about gun control at the top of his lungs. The hypocrisy of the whole thing was staggering to many of us:

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/aug/9/obamas-forgiveness-of-gun-crimes-amid-push-for-con/

 

 

9 hours ago, Larry said:

 

 

 

Yeah, it really sucks the way the left are constantly fighting against those things.  Sure glad that we've got the NRA to defend us against the left's desire to ignore all of those.  

 

See the articles I posted above. Just because you arent willing to look at something doesnt mean it isnt happening. The left ignores EVERYTHING if it doesnt fit their agenda. 

[tshile]

51 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

 

Our stance is to ENFORCE THE CURRENT LAWS in regards to mental health and current penalties for illegal possession. 

http://www.ncsl.org/research/civil-and-criminal-justice/possession-of-a-firearm-by-the-mentally-ill.aspx

 

The current laws are not enforced. And if they are in rare circumstances. The criminal gets a slap on the wrist, leaves the courthouse and buys a gun on the next street corner. OR FROM A GUN SHOP. Only 40% of the people that LIE on a gun application are prosecuted. We are talking about people that are ALREADY felons. And the gun laws do nothing to stop them from getting another gun. BECAUSE THEY DONT CARE, they wont face any major penalty for it. It is VERY rare for me to call a CNN article fair and balanced. But this one actually is somewhat:

https://www.cnn.com/2016/01/09/politics/obama-executive-orders-gun-control-enforcement-gap/index.html

 

In the ultimate slap in the face. Obama pardoned 107 gun violators while shouting about gun control at the top of his lungs. The hypocrisy of the whole thing was staggering to many of us:

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/aug/9/obamas-forgiveness-of-gun-crimes-amid-push-for-con/

 

 

 

See the articles I posted above. Just because you arent willing to look at something doesnt mean it isnt happening. The left ignores EVERYTHING if it doesnt fit their agenda. 

 

From the article you posted and called actually somewhat fair and balanced:

 

Quote

One is simply a resource problem: The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, or ATF, which investigates licensed gun dealers, and the National Instant Criminal Background Check System are woefully understaffed and replete with red tape, gun control supporters say.

 

And who is causing these staffing issues?

 

Your post shows you just don't understand much about what is going on in this country in regards to guns. The NRA stands up and says "enforce the laws on the books already!" then turns around and lobbies people to cut funding for, or refuses to staff, the agencies responsible for enforcing said laws. They also have restrictions placed on the agencies to prevent from doing their job, such as limiting how often they can inventory a place, requiring them to dispose or records after X days, not being able to keep track of certain types of information, preventing research, and refusing to even put a true head of the agency in place instead playing games with temps and such.

 

And you turn around and come in here and give this ridiculous series of posts about how we should enforce the laws already on the books.

 

Sorry, but that bull**** isn't going to fly here. If you're interested in having an honest discussion about it, go read up on it first.

[clskinsfan]

1 minute ago, tshile said:

 

From the article you posted and called actually somewhat fair and balanced:

 

 

And who is causing these staffing issues?

 

Your post shows you just don't understand much about what is going on in this country in regards to guns. The NRA stands up and says "enforce the laws on the books already!" then turns around and lobbies people to cut funding for, or refuses to staff, the agencies responsible for enforcing said laws. They also have restrictions placed on the agencies to prevent from doing their job, such as limiting how often they can inventory a place, requiring them to dispose or records after X days, not being able to keep track of certain types of information, preventing research, and refusing to even put a true head of the agency in place instead playing games with temps and such.

 

And you turn around and come in here and give this ridiculous series of posts about how we should enforce the laws already on the books.

 

Sorry, but that bull**** isn't going to fly here. If you're interested in having an honest discussion about it, go read up on it first.

 

Again. Ignoring problems because they dont fit your agenda is bull**** as well. The laws are on the books and are not enforced. Please explain to us with your infinite wisdom how passing more laws is going to do anything to fix the problem.  I have said what I wanted to say. I will step out now as neither of us will be swayed in our position. And that is where the country as whole is at this point. Sad in reality.

[LD0506]

Goddamit tshile, there you go again being an anti gun lefty pushing an agenda 

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

55 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

 

Again. Ignoring problems because they dont fit your agenda is bull**** as well. The laws are on the books and are not enforced. Please explain to us with your infinite wisdom how passing more laws is going to do anything to fix the problem.  I have said what I wanted to say. I will step out now as neither of us will be swayed in our position. And that is where the country as whole is at this point. Sad in reality.

 

Both need to happen.  Enforcement of current laws and new/updated laws.  The later being raising the age to purchase all semi-automatic weapons to 21, stricter background checks, not allowing any sales at gun shows (unless law enforcement is present to perform background checks and check handgun permits), ban the further manufacturing of bump stocks, reduce magazine capacities available for sale, implement a database that tracks gun and ammunition sales (I'll say this again, if the government can track my ****ing allergy medication and limit the amount I can purchase in a 30 day period, there is no reason they can't track guns and ammo), require registration for all guns, require permits for all guns (this could tie into mental illness screening).

 

Enforce the current laws and implement new ones and that should help reduce these horrible instances from occurring so often.  They will never go away entirely.  I'm sick of both sides (left and right) just ****ing at each other instead of working together to address the problem.  Children are dying for ****s sake.  

[Bang]

1 hour ago, clskinsfan said:

 

Again. Ignoring problems because they dont fit your agenda is bull**** as well. The laws are on the books and are not enforced. Please explain to us with your infinite wisdom how passing more laws is going to do anything to fix the problem.  I have said what I wanted to say. I will step out now as neither of us will be swayed in our position. And that is where the country as whole is at this point. Sad in reality.

 

 

uh,,  he didn't say more laws,, he EXPLAINED to you WHY the agencies meant to police the laws are understaffed and rife with bureaucratic bull**** to try to do the jobs.

the NRA does not WANT those agencies properly staffed, and they do things that allow for problems that they can then blame on their political opponents qwith screams of "police the laws"... meanwhile the actual POLICE tell you how difficult it is made to do so.

the NRA fights tooth and nail to keep loopholes open that allow for illegal sales of guns to people who can't buy them.  Police departments and sheriff associations across the country KNOW where their problem guns come from, and all you have to do is listen to them.

Look up the Tiahrt amendment for a great example of legislation the NRA sponsored that made it impossible for interstate agencies to try to trace guns to their source. Thankfully that has finally been thrown out,, but it was written and did pass, and did exactly what tshile is telling you they do.

 

These arguments are tiresome. Police the laws, that's fine. 

Now, since we've decided in this country to debate arming teachers across the land, why not take some of that magically available money and start t staff the agencies that can possibly PREVENT this sort of thing in the first place... the agencies designed and created specifically to 'enforce the laws that are on the books"... just like you want.

 

See, here's the thing. If you scream "POLICE THE LAWS"..  ok, that's great, but in ANY intelligent brain, this declaration HAS to be followed IMMEDIATELY by the question "WHY aren't the laws being policed as they should be?".

So, what is the answer to that question that is NOT the answer tshile provided you?

Is it people just laying around on their government job asses, not doing anything? Is it anti-gun crazies who have infiltrated law enforcement to prevent laws from being policed so as to create a climate ripe for gun control?

Is it someone sabotaging the activities of the police as they try to put the brakes on this nationwide problem of mass murder? Are there not enough people to track gun sales and process background checks? (Bet if that slowed down how soon you could buy your new gun, that **** would become a problem, huh? ) 

Somehow our access to guns hasn't changed despite the agencies being depleted, and the record gun sales of the last decade slamming through..  hardly makes sense, doe it? less staffers..  no change in wait times...  record sales means more to process.. .. and yet somehow laws aren't being enforced.. 

2+2 is......  

 

What is the answer from your side? If the laws are not being policed... WHY NOT?

 

~Bang

 

.

Edited March 23, 2018 by Bang

[tshile]

1 hour ago, clskinsfan said:

 

Again. Ignoring problems because they dont fit your agenda is bull**** as well. The laws are on the books and are not enforced. Please explain to us with your infinite wisdom how passing more laws is going to do anything to fix the problem.  I have said what I wanted to say. I will step out now as neither of us will be swayed in our position. And that is where the country as whole is at this point. Sad in reality.

You're talking to a pro-gun person. I don't have an agenda here, to be honest. I don't see anything getting fixed, the number one reason being because there are too many people who think the nonsense you posted. But also because the pro-control people have too many people on their side that are equally nutty and not informed.

 

I'm not against more laws, but it's not my #1 push. I have a track record on this forum, on this subject, of saying I think the best thing we could do was restore the ATF back to what it was supposed to be/used to be, remove restrictions from agencies like the CDC when it comes to researching guns, and remove some of the ridiculous "protections" in place to "protect" the gun dealers. 

 

I also think it'd be better if we focused on *why* we have people in our society that want to do this, and see if we can address that.

 

I've railed against most suggestions for gun control - not because i'm inherently against gun control, but because I don't think most suggestions are any good (or will never be passed, or if passed would be thrown out by SCOTUS.)

 

The problem is that you repeated the same bull**** line the NRA does, while neglecting that they actively work to subvert their supposed solution. It's not hard to see, most if not all of the other active posters on the subject here are aware of it. You're apparently unaware of it, though.

 

Like I said, read up on it first. The rest of us already have, you're behind the rest of the class. If you do, you'll find there are plenty of people here willing to discuss it with you. No one is going to accept what you've started with here, though.

Edited March 23, 2018 by tshile

[Llevron]

I like it when yall get like this. 

[PeterMP]

5 hours ago, clskinsfan said:

 

Our stance is to ENFORCE THE CURRENT LAWS in regards to mental health and current penalties for illegal possession. 

http://www.ncsl.org/research/civil-and-criminal-justice/possession-of-a-firearm-by-the-mentally-ill.aspx

 

The current laws are not enforced. And if they are in rare circumstances. The criminal gets a slap on the wrist, leaves the courthouse and buys a gun on the next street corner. OR FROM A GUN SHOP. Only 40% of the people that LIE on a gun application are prosecuted. We are talking about people that are ALREADY felons. And the gun laws do nothing to stop them from getting another gun. BECAUSE THEY DONT CARE, they wont face any major penalty for it. It is VERY rare for me to call a CNN article fair and balanced. But this one actually is somewhat:

https://www.cnn.com/2016/01/09/politics/obama-executive-orders-gun-control-enforcement-gap/index.html

 

In the ultimate slap in the face. Obama pardoned 107 gun violators while shouting about gun control at the top of his lungs. The hypocrisy of the whole thing was staggering to many of us:

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/aug/9/obamas-forgiveness-of-gun-crimes-amid-push-for-con/

 

 

 

See the articles I posted above. Just because you arent willing to look at something doesnt mean it isnt happening. The left ignores EVERYTHING if it doesnt fit their agenda. 

 

Just to add on, the NRA has fought for years against budgets to fully staff the ATF and the required prosecutors.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jan/06/bureau-alcohol-tobacco-firearms-obama-gun-control-measures-funding-understaffing

 

And the current (Trump) ATF is talking about relaxing and rolling back regulations making it harder to keep guns out of the hands of criminals and the mentally ill.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/the-trump-administration-has-already-been-rolling-back-gun-regulations/2017/10/04/5eaad7d6-a86b-11e7-8ed2-c7114e6ac460_story.html?utm_term=.6248b08c5f0f

 

The terms "our" and "the left" are vague and unclear by whom you mean, but if you think the NRA supports a robust and active ATF and national database of who shouldn't be able to buy guns (the mentally ill), you are delusional or badly misinformed.

 

Just like if you don't think much of "the left" wants to see more strict enforcement of most of our current gun laws.

Edited March 23, 2018 by PeterMP

[clskinsfan]

3 hours ago, tshile said:

You're talking to a pro-gun person. I don't have an agenda here, to be honest. I don't see anything getting fixed, the number one reason being because there are too many people who think the nonsense you posted. But also because the pro-control people have too many people on their side that are equally nutty and not informed.

 

I'm not against more laws, but it's not my #1 push. I have a track record on this forum, on this subject, of saying I think the best thing we could do was restore the ATF back to what it was supposed to be/used to be, remove restrictions from agencies like the CDC when it comes to researching guns, and remove some of the ridiculous "protections" in place to "protect" the gun dealers. 

 

I also think it'd be better if we focused on *why* we have people in our society that want to do this, and see if we can address that.

 

I've railed against most suggestions for gun control - not because i'm inherently against gun control, but because I don't think most suggestions are any good (or will never be passed, or if passed would be thrown out by SCOTUS.)

 

The problem is that you repeated the same bull**** line the NRA does, while neglecting that they actively work to subvert their supposed solution. It's not hard to see, most if not all of the other active posters on the subject here are aware of it. You're apparently unaware of it, though.

 

Like I said, read up on it first. The rest of us already have, you're behind the rest of the class. If you do, you'll find there are plenty of people here willing to discuss it with you. No one is going to accept what you've started with here, though.

 

You are a pro gun person who does not understand the value of the NRA? Can you tell me which organization you are a member of that protects your gun rights? I might decide to change my membership next year. 

 

And the enforcement issue goes WAY beyond under staffing and red tape. There is a part of the anti gun movement that NEEDS these mass shootings as an impetus for their ultimate goal. I know that sounds conspiracy theory crazy. But it is the truth. Violence sells.

 

Gun homicides are down 39% since 1993. Have you heard ANY news source report that fact? You are 6 times more likely to be beaten to death than to be killed by a rifle. Yet those scary black rifles seem to headline the news every night dont they? You dont see pictures of hammers up on the nightly news do you? Well guess what you are 1 1/2 times more likely to be beaten to death with a hammer than killed by a rifle.....I could go on and on. The point is there is an agenda and narrative being played out here. And it is being played out to perfection on the nightly news EVERY DAY.  Statistics are pulled from the FBI:

 https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/tables/table-20

 

I am not some cold hearted "come take em from my cold dead hands" guy. My post above stated as much. I am fine with stringent background checks, waiting periods And maybe even willing to give up my scary black rifles. But something needs to be done about ALL OF THE GUN homicides in this country. Not just mass shootings. Chicago had 3457 people shot in 2017 and 454 people shot so far this year (some of the strictest gun laws in the country by the way). There have been 1077 people that have died in the US in mass shootings SINCE 1966! The mass shooting problem is overblown. And it is being overblown for a reason. This is an article adapted from the Wash Post. A lot of people dont have a subscription so you can read it here:

https://www.thelily.com/1077-people-have-been-killed-in-mass-shootings-since-a-1966-incident-at-the-university-of-texas/

 

If you really want to do something about the homicide rate in this country do something about handguns. They are used 20 times more often to commit murder than rifles are. Do I own them? Yep. But IMO if a felon is caught with a handgun it should be an immediate life sentence. No slap on the wrist. No parole. If you are not allowed to own them and you have one you pay the price. Period. They are too easy to conceal and too easy for criminals to use them for what they were designed to do. People NEED to be trained and be made to understand the danger of a handgun. I would be fine with that training being mandatory.  

 

My defense of the NRA, no matter how radical they are, is because there simply is no other option when it comes to defending gun rights. Yes. Like most other organizations they are radical in their stance. There is no middle ground with the NRA. No doubt about it. But for a lot of us there shouldnt be when it comes to the protection of a Constitutional right for law abiding citizens.

 

 

 

[visionary]

 

 

 

Edited March 23, 2018 by visionary

[visionary]

 

[visionary]

 

[LD0506]

Schoolkids shouldn't be the NRA's "target market"

 

They are okay with dead kids as a cost of doing business, and tbh an entirely acceptable cost

 

The only real question is: are you?

 

 

[TradeTheBeal!]

The mass shooting problem in this country is not “overblown”.  We’re the laughing stock of the civilized world and it’s ****ing sad as hell.

Edited March 23, 2018 by TryTheBeal!

[Renegade7]

You know what the problem with this debate is? 

 

 

The title of this thread:  "Gun Control"

 

 

No one agrees on wtf that means, yet we agree on a whole lot of other things.   How frustrated are you that the stuff we agree on doesn't get done either?   

Edited March 23, 2018 by Renegade7

[clskinsfan]

22 minutes ago, LD0506 said:

Schoolkids shouldn't be the NRA's "target market"

 

They are okay with dead kids as a cost of doing business, and tbh an entirely acceptable cost

 

The only real question is: are you?

 

 

 

They shouldnt be the media's target to market either. 

[clskinsfan]

57 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

The mass shooting problem in this country is not “overblown”.  We’re the laughing stock of the civilized world and it’s ****ing sad as hell.

 

I just posted the statistics. They are accurate. And from the FBI. An average of 21 people per year have been killed in mass shootings in the past 52 years. You know how many people were struck and killed by lightning in the same time frame? 2652. Or on average 51 per year. In other words you are MORE than twice as likely to be killed by lightning than in a mass shooting. Open your eyes and understand what you are being fed.

Edited March 23, 2018 by clskinsfan

[Springfield]

The NRA doesn’t need to exist to protect your gun rights.  The constitution and Supreme Court ensures that.  Neither of those ensure your right to have to have certain types of guns.  Tommy guns, for instance.

[TradeTheBeal!]

Lightning and sporks.  This is what people talk about when they are empty inside.

[clskinsfan]

15 minutes ago, Springfield said:

The NRA doesn’t need to exist to protect your gun rights.  The constitution and Supreme Court ensures that.  Neither of those ensure your right to have to have certain types of guns.  Tommy guns, for instance.

 

Until someone decides to attempt to change them. See DC's laws on the abolition of guns. It was struck down by the SC BECAUSE THE NRA SUED.

5 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

Lightning and sporks.  This is what people talk about when they are empty inside.

 

Solid contribution to the debate. So enjoying shooting sports and hunting makes you empty inside. I would argue the opposite. Attempting to tell someone else how to live THEIR lives makes you a person that is empty inside.

Edited March 23, 2018 by clskinsfan

[Springfield]

21 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

 

Until someone decides to attempt to change them. See DC's laws on the abolition of guns. It was struck down by the SC BECAUSE THE NRA SUED.

 

Anyone could have sued.  If it’s unconstitutional, then it will be decided as such.  An act like that doesn’t take the NRA.