The Gun Control Debate Thread

[Fresh8686]

4 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

I don't know that interesting is the right word.

 

I would say it's deplorable that the person who puts on a gun, a badge, and a vest every day, and was assigned to a school, hid outside when he was needed most. I wish terrible things upon that person.

Eh, most people can't handle the tension and stress of a shoot-out. One day, if things work out, I hope to create systems that give people better training that will increase their tensile resiliency, so they can properly shunt it's load across their nervous system and not freeze. Plus, be able to better identify people's base level resiliency and who is or is not qualified for certain duties.

I remember when Homeland Security, ICE, and the DEA jumped out on me with all their guns and ****. They thought I was crazy because it made me laugh, but really I was just riding high on adrenaline, rather than shutting down like other people would.





 

[LadySkinsFan]

[tshile]

18 minutes ago, Fresh8686 said:

I'd be curious to see if those numbers would be different if they did that poll again this year.

I personally think things are sustainably swinging towards a direction that will engender greater gun-control mobilization and hopefully a shift in November towards more democrats and also more republicans who are less tied to gun interests. Too much of the narrative of what can and can't be done is poised amidst this backdrop of gun control apathy, that really seems to be shifting.

 

I think if you ran the poll rigth now you would definitely see that.

 

I think if you ran it not in the immediate aftermath of an event... well, i don't know what I think would happen, but i'm not convinced it would be significantly different.

 

It's february of 2018, so all the real studies and research are going to be dated 2017 - or the writeup might be dated 2018 but the data is going to come from 2017. It's going to be a while before we have anything reliable on what people thought in 2018.

 

If the reactions going to be different in the wake of this event, that means something about this event made it different.  What would that be, exactly?

 

Unless it's just an "enough is enough" moment?

 

We've had polls for years telling us majority support increased background checks. It's not happening though. There's a reason for that. 

10 minutes ago, Fresh8686 said:

Eh, most people can't handle the tension and stress of a shoot-out.

 

Right, but that was his job.

 

Don't take the job then. 

 

Not everyone can be a firefighter, police, military, or any number of jobs frankly. Taking the job then not performing when needed most... it's not excusable to just say "well it's hard and i wasn't ready for it"

Edited February 28, 2018 by tshile

[tshile]

21 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

@tshile

 

AND you liked it. 

 

Like I said. One side says limit the conversation to what can (in their opinion) actually be done. But when one guy says he doesn't want you to arm teachers thats the problem and everyone is a ****ing hypocrite but you. 

 

Be sick. Please.

 

You are correct.

 

He made a post that included what you said. And i Liked it 

 

Because..... in that same post... he also said:

On 2/22/2018 at 3:52 PM, PeterMP said:

That was a University in Oregon.  And that's what you'd want your teachers to do.

 

And they realistically are doing it now, except without the gun and it is getting them and the students killed.

 

 

Which was a direct response to me, using a quote of me, telling me where the event I was describing took place and commenting further on it.

 

Edited February 28, 2018 by tshile

[DogofWar1]

I used to set the benchmark for obvious action at reauthorizing the CDC to conduct studies, and if there was pushback on something as simple as that, it usually meant the opposition was not being intellectually honest.

 

I think we can extend that to bump stocks and their banning.  It's not a weapon but an accessory so the 2nd can not be implicated, and further they are, moreso than anything else, completely unnecessary.  Realistically, a person using a bump stock for anything other than a brief test for the novelty of it is either treating their gun like a toy, or they have malicious intent.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

15 minutes ago, tshile said:

We've had polls for years telling us majority support increased background checks. It's not happening though. There's a reason for that.

This is true and we need to address the reasons that it isn't happening. One is that many Americans are just plain uninformed. I posted the "clenched fist of justice" NRA ad on Facebook and people were like "What the hell?" They had no idea what the NRA was all about nowadays. The big reason, of course, is power. The NRA has demonstrated an ability to help keep people in power or from attaining power through money and votes. If there were a common sense gun control lobby that rose up with equal or more support & resources, there would be meaningful change.

 

And yes, it's true that we've not been able to pass any kind of gun control legislation. There was a long, long period of time where no civil rights laws were passed either. Movements aren't deserving of mockery. There is no shortage of examples where, when society's thinking changes, the way the constitution is interpreted changes as well.

Edited February 28, 2018 by Sacks 'n' Stuff

[twa]

1 hour ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

Isn’t it interesting that an SRO in a school was not enough of a detering ghreat to prevent Cruz from killing 17 of his former classmates and teachers?

Some people just want to see the world burn...so you take away their matches.

 

isn't it interesting he waited till the SRO was not in the school?

 

but i agree with you that here should be armed people guarding each building.....or was that not your point.?

[Llevron]

54 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

We didn't say you shouldn't talk about it because it won't ever happen.

I'm so incredibly sick of how disingenuous you and others are being. It's fine if you don't like the idea, but it'd be nice if you'd stop making up what we say.

 

On 2/22/2018 at 3:52 PM, PeterMP said:

We aren't talking about doing nothing.  In fact, we are talking about just the opposite.  We're talking about limiting the conversation to what can actually be done.

 

 

3 hours ago, Kilmer17 said:

I wasnt directing it anyone in particular.  But to start, I want everyone to stop talking about arming teachers or debating it as if it's a realistic and acceptable solution.

 

 

 

Im being petty at this point but I just wanted to illiterate how full of **** your above post and a few others have been. I mean even your retort is bull****. I dont care that you liked it because you agreed with anything he said. Thats not the point (and you know that). The point is you saw the post saying exactly what you say today no one said. 

 

And when you come to me saying im making you incredibly sick with how disingenuous I am, when you liked two posts that are directly contrary to one other;

 

On 2/22/2018 at 3:52 PM, PeterMP said:

We aren't talking about doing nothing.  In fact, we are talking about just the opposite.  We're talking about limiting the conversation to what can actually be done.

 

and

2 hours ago, PeterMP said:

In a country based on the idea of free speech and exchange of ideas we are now to the point in this country that we shouldn't discuss ideas because other people don't like them.

 

THEN you tell me that im being disingenuous for making an, now proven, observation on how hypocritical these two statements are. 

 

1 hour ago, Llevron said:

Also who was it that came in here and said we shouldn't be talking about gun control since it wont ever happen.  

 

Now when my best friend ever @Kilmer17 says something similar its a problem. Yall funny

 

then your reply of 

1 hour ago, tshile said:

 

We didn't say you shouldn't talk about it because it won't ever happen.

 

We said we were only discussing this because we believe it (the other gun control stuff) won't ever happen.

 

The stuff is in plain text. There are numbers at the bottom you can click on to go back a few pages and read it.

 

I'm so incredibly sick of how disingenuous you and others are being. It's fine if you don't like the idea, but it'd be nice if you'd stop making up what we say.

 

I would say you owe me an apology but I dont care that much. It just bothers me that you and peter want to play like you are the only reasonable people in this thread when you have behaved like anything but. My level of discourse has circled the drain at the point because I honestly DGAF anymore. I tried to point this same **** out multiple times. You butt in, multiple times, and here we are. I dont have any problem with you. And I know this topic makes you upset. But you need to get it together playa. And maybe take your own advice next time and go click on the little numbers at the bottom and make sure people haven't said the **** you are saying they haven't said before you post something silly again. 

 

It really really grinds my gears to have people misquote me to prove a point. Then to have someone accusing me of misquoting them (when I know I didnt) and act like im the problem here boils me over. 

 

Im asking you, because I actually like talking to you people (and you in particular bro), to stop doing that. Please. It really pisses me off and gets me out of character. 

[Kosher Ham]

This is topic is going to force even more home schooling. Teaching is probably the worst career to be in these days. 

 

I like the Dick's idea...that doesn't mean that even a 21YO person is just a tad more responsible than an 18YO these days because of the change in alcohol laws in...what was it '87 ?  I never went to a HS party where alcohol was not available. I didn't even drink at all back then. Not to mention Dick's will lose a percentage of business from their primary consumers as a result of the change initially. 

 

22 hours ago, LadySkinsFan said:

Most people don't talk about how many guns they have, or even if they have one.

 

I think there is not any reason to tell people most of the time. 

I have a little sister that has her concealed. She is not even close to the stereotype of a woman that would EVER carry. 

[Fresh8686]

53 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

I think if you ran the poll rigth now you would definitely see that.

 

I think if you ran it not in the immediate aftermath of an event... well, i don't know what I think would happen, but i'm not convinced it would be significantly different.

 

It's february of 2018, so all the real studies and research are going to be dated 2017 - or the writeup might be dated 2018 but the data is going to come from 2017. It's going to be a while before we have anything reliable on what people thought in 2018.

 

If the reactions going to be different in the wake of this event, that means something about this event made it different.  What would that be, exactly?

 

Unless it's just an "enough is enough" moment?

 

We've had polls for years telling us majority support increased background checks. It's not happening though. There's a reason for that. 

 

Right, but that was his job.

 

Don't take the job then. 

 

Not everyone can be a firefighter, police, military, or any number of jobs frankly. Taking the job then not performing when needed most... it's not excusable to just say "well it's hard and i wasn't ready for it"

I feel you, data takes time to compile.  

Why is now different? Personally, I think it's a mixture of different things. You have a gradually increasing base of progressives who are no longer apathetic and disconnected from each other. Our country has become too openly volatile and incompetent for greater swaths of people to ignore. This reaction is building and creating nodes or vehicles of mobilization that are multi-faceted and synergistic with the issues they are investing in. And each event, whether it's mass shootings, sexual harrasment, racism, nazis, Russian Hacking/Collusion leads to the creation and inter-connection of more vehicles like the Women's March, the MeToo movement, Indivisible, The Science March, Pro-Immigration/Travel Ban Protests, Charlottesville, etc.

Each messed up thing that now happens in this country is being responded to with activism rather than apathy and defeatism to a gradually increasing degree. It's out in the open now, that it's up to us, because our government has failed in it's responsibilities (this is the perception at least).  And people are adapting to that greater awareness and inserting it into the narrative. For example, before politicians could get away with thoughts and prayers, but now people are hip to it as a delaying tactic and call BS. The old tropes aren't working as well anymore, and the response to the tax bill will be an interesting barometer to this as well. Will people get lulled by the breadcrumbs and ignore the greater issues waiting down the road, or will they remember and not be fooled again?

People were pacified, because their individual lives were still comfortable, but now... things are tense and tension is like an itch, in that it moves you to scratch it. To act to relieve it.  

So... way more people are looking to scratch this itch to change, than ever before, because they feel more threatened than ever before. Why do you think republicans tend to have better voter turn-out? It's because they feel more threatened by the status quo or at least their perception of it and that motivates them.


And I hear you, regarding it being his job. Understanding his failings, doesn't mean I accept or condone his failings, but I didn't communicate that in my previous post. Humans on the whole suck when it comes to tensile fitness, but that's because it's not clearly understood that what makes people able to handle those jobs can be trained and developed. And the process of identifying degrees of capability for each tension threshold has not yet been created (that I'm aware of).


 

Edited February 28, 2018 by Fresh8686

[The Evil Genius]

I doubt this will be the last of these stories.

 

HS Teacher in custody after shots fired.

 

http://nbc4i.com/2018/02/28/teacher-in-custody-after-police-in-georgia-respond-to-shots-fired-at-high-school/

Edited February 28, 2018 by The Evil Genius

[twa]

Interesting swing

 

Guy Benson‏Verified account @guypbenson 5h5 hours ago

More

POLITICO/Morning Consult: “All companies who cut business ties with the NRA last week saw their public opinion decline this week.” Cc: @united

 

[tshile]

edit: now that i think about it, maybe i'm wrong about what those numbers do/don't mean.

Edited February 28, 2018 by tshile

[AsburySkinsFan]

1 hour ago, tshile said:

 

I don't know that interesting is the right word.

 

I would say it's deplorable that the person who puts on a gun, a badge, and a vest every day, and was assigned to a school, hid outside when he was needed most. I wish terrible things upon that person.

And yet you COMPLETELY avoided what I said. The presence of an armed Sherrif’s Deputy assigned to the school was NOT a deterrent to Cruz, I wonder why?

Probably because AR + bullet proof vest > 9mm

Isn’t it also fun to recognize that a kevlar vest will stop 9mm rounds, but will NOT stop the 5.56 round fired by an AR?

I guess we need our teachers armed with AR’s now.

#EducationalArmsRace

#PreventionNotResponse

[tshile]

5 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

And yet you COMPLETELY avoided what I said. The presence of an armed Sherrif’s Deputy assigned to the school was NOT a deterrent to Cruz

 

That would be because I've already said a ton of times that arming teachers, or having an SRO, wouldn't be a deterrent. You all make us repeat ourselves a lot, trying to cut down.

 

I don't know that you can create a deterrent to a person who wants to do such a thing.

 

And as others have suggested, a deterrent to shooting up the school (given the context of what we believe we understand about the attackers) would probably just mean shooting up something else instead. So while I'd be happy with that because the kids are sitting ducks at school and at least everywhere else individuals (in my state) can choose to carry or not, it doesn't really do much about the real issue (mass shootings in general.)

 

Edited February 28, 2018 by tshile

[visionary]

 

[tshile]

7 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

Isn’t it also fun to recognize that a kevlar vest will stop 9mm rounds, but will NOT stop the 5.56 round fired by an AR?

I guess we need our teachers armed with AR’s now.

 

Based on this, I don't think you understand much about kevlar.

 

Would you sign up to be hit with a 9 mm wearing kevlar? I sure as hell wouldn't.

 

Not to mention it completely ignores the actual context of the conversation (which you've been doing from the beginning, along with a few others.)

[The Evil Genius]

4 minutes ago, visionary said:

 

 

Ugh. I don't think there is a good way to argue what he is arguing.

 

The responses were funny though.

 

 

 

Edited February 28, 2018 by The Evil Genius

[AsburySkinsFan]

1 hour ago, twa said:

 

isn't it interesting he waited till the SRO was not in the school?

 

but i agree with you that here should be armed people guarding each building.....or was that not your point.?

Hmmm...

”Peterson, according to the statement, believed that the shooter was outside because, “Radio transmissions indicated that there were a gunshot victim in the area of the football field.”

 

http://time.com/5176090/scot-peterson-not-coward-parkland-cop/

[tshile]

2 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

 

Ugh. I don't think there is a good way to argue what he is arguing.

every time a politician brings up hitler, nazis (in respect to nazi germany, not modern day nazis or neo-nazis), or jews in nazi germany there should be someone who pops out behind the bushes and hits them on the nose with a rolled up newspaper then jumps back in the bushes.

 

[AsburySkinsFan]

6 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

I don't know that you can create a deterrent to a person who wants to do such a thing.

 

 

There it is...you said it all. 

If guns are not the deterrent then you prevent them from being used.

Prevent children from being “left behind”.

Prevent mentally unstable from falling through cracks.

Prevent them from getting into the hands of those who should not have them.

Prevent them from getting into schools.

Prevent thdm from getting into classrooms.

PREVENTION once again is proven to be worth more than a cure.

Focus on prevention, and we’ll have little or no need for the cure.

[tshile]

1 minute ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

There it is...you said it all. 

If guns are not the deterrent then you prevent them from being used.

Prevent children from being “left behind”.

Prevent mentally unstable from falling through cracks.

Prevent them from getting into the hands of those who should not have them.

Prevent them from getting into schools.

Prevent thdm from getting into classrooms.

PREVENTION once again is proven to be worth more than a cure.

Focus on prevention, and we’ll have little or no need for the cure.

 

It's like talking to a wall.

 

Neither peter nor I are against any of those prevention ideas.

 

We are highly skeptical that there is any political capability of instituting such prevention.

 

So in light of being highly skeptical, which the skepticism is backed by 15 years of gun rights being expanded not limited and many pro-control areas having their restrictions overturned in court, we were entertaining the idea of how you could give a teacher a tool to use when the person comes through their classroom door.

 

Peter has talked about some ways it could be a deterrent, but I wont speak for him. He's posted on it numerous times in the last week.

 

I have been pretty consistent in saying it won't be a deterrent, that it's simply a tool for the teacher to use as a last resort in a situation where they have no real tools.

 

Please try to read our posts. It's really irritating that you keep going in the same god damned circle over and over. You've discovered exactly nothing here.

[AsburySkinsFan]

@tshileyup, a wall is EXACTLY what you’ll find from me the moment you start discussing putting guns in the hands of teachers. Whew! I was beginning tobthink you might havd thought that I was open to the concept!

[tshile]

6 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

Whew! I was beginning tobthink you might havd thought that I was open to the concept!

No, not at all.

 

I was hoping you'd at least make an effort to understand what we're saying, instead of making it up for us

 

[Burgold]

 

Cops: Teacher in Custody After Shots Fired at Dalton, Georgia High School

https://www.thedailybeast.com/cops-teacher-in-custody-after-shots-fired-at-dalton-georgia-high-school

 

Police in Dalton, Georgia say an adult is in custody after reports of shots fired at a high school. The suspect barricaded themselves inside a classroom, police said, and investigators believe the suspect is a teacher. No students were injured. The incident comes days after President Trump called for arming teachers two weeks after a gunman opened fire at a high school in Florida, killing 17 people.

 

 

UPDATE: The teacher involved in this morning’s incident is Jesse Randall Davidson, 53, social studies teacher. Also serves as play by play voice of the Dalton football team.

UPDATE: The subject is IN CUSTODY

UPDATE: Students are being taken to the Nw GA Trade and Convention Center. Parents should rendezvous with their students there