The Bad Timing Thread: Scoty Mac Giving the Redskins an Identity (sorry, none of our current QBs are in the plans)

[Mooka]

Hello my ES Bretheren, hope you all have managed to stay sane these past 2 seasons. Been a few. As you read, our new savoir Scoty Mac is not only giving our Redskins a new identity on the field he's also proving he's a true Washington Redskin with a fresh infidelity scandal off the field!    

 

 

I am actually excited for this season and not for a winner, but more to watch our team find an identity and build upon it. It is clear that McCloughan is building a physical, hard-hitting team that can smother the modern NFL offense and control the football offensively, ala the Seattle Seahawks and the 49ers. (RIP?) How well did he build those teams and what role did he play? Well, you can discuss that here.  (*sorry bad link)

 

You only have to look at our draft:

Brandon Scherff, OT - Run-Mauler, plays with attitude.

Preston Smith, OLB - Tough, high upside. 

Matt Jones, RB - biiiig, physical RB at 230+lbs 

 

Or our trades/acquisitions:

Chris Culliver, CB - press-man cover corner, tackling machine

Terrence Knighton, NT

Stephen Peae, DE

Dashon Goldston, DB - Made a career as a hard-hitting safety

Junoir Gallete, OLB - On IR. Bummer. 

etc.

 

Anyone can see what McCloughan is building here. Scherff looks raw in pass protection and a little lost on his assignments, but I really like what I've seen from Preston Smith and Matt Jones. Smith bulked up a bit and in pre-season I've noticed his ability to shed blocks and stick with the play. Particularly week 1 against Cleveland. (something said to be a weakness on his draft card) Jones is currently 3rd string, which means he's a preseason super stud!!!   I think we're all excited to see him develop into a tandem with Alfred this season. 

 

 

The big problem here, is that this direction does not fit any QB on our roster. Sorry but RG3 is an injury/fumble waiting to happen. To be short: Watch the Tape. Its hard to be overly critical of Kirk who has only 9 starts under his belt and has shown the ability to move the chains and manage the offense, but those interception breakdowns.... obviously he can't be a starting NFL QB and have a 1:1 TD/Int ratio. 

 

Who here wants to bet that any of our QBs will be starting in 2016 or beyond? (on our roster even?) Hell, week 2 is a dicey bet after we start against Miami. So are our Qbs completely irrelevant after allllllllll those draft picks and all the development we've gone through? Eh, possibly.   Maybe Kirk develops into something as the #1, maybe RG3 responds well without the extra pressure and discovers some acupuncture or something, maybe Colt.... ok. Enough maybes. 

 

 

And that's why Matt Cavanaugh is here. This is my main evidence. The signing of Cavanaugh as our QBs coach this season was kind of a head-scratcher of a move but I didn't really pay attention too much. Who really would? Who really pays attention to the offensive coordinator of the early 2000's Baltimore Ravens? After Baltimore, Cavanaugh would spend the next 3 seasons in the NCAA until coming back to the Jets to work with... Mark Sanchez. 

 

And yup, that's basically all Matt Cavanaugh's experience developing young QBs. The Jet's brought him in to work with Sanchez as a QBs coach and the Ravens did draft Kyle Boller while he was their o-coordinator. Those are the only young QBs Cavanaugh has worked with his NFL career. As a QB coach in the 90's Cavanaugh worked with veteran QBs like Steve Young, Steve Beuerlein and the super journeyman David Kreig. He won a SB in Baltimore with Trent Dilfer. The Bears brought him to deal with Jay Cutler. 

 

I know Gruden mainly coaches the QBs and Cavanuagh is here to help him, but obviously Matt wasn't brought here to help RG3 or Kirk Cousins develop.  

 

This isn't meant to be a knock on the man either. Just pointing out what he's here to do: weather the storm. He's here to help get the best out of a bad situation. Help scrap together a manageable offense when you're stuck with, sorry to say Skin fans, a Trent Dilfer, a very old Roger Kreig or an aging Steve Young with concussion problems. He's who you bring in to deal with Jay Cutler after a monster move and terrible results with lots of drama. Kind of scary to compare our once promising core of young QBs as of 3 seasons ago to that group.

 

 

But for a change, my eye's will be more focused on the running game, the play of both lines and our new defensive core with some promising young players in the mix. I'll be looking out for a QB that can protect the football and manage our offense whomever, or whichever that guy turns out to be. 

 

 

Cheers and HTTR. Here's to the 2015 season. 

[mojo]

Sorry but I'm not judging Kirk yet based on games when we're playing from behind and throwing the ball 40 times a game. All young QBs put in that position are going to throw picks. If we ever get to a place where our defense and running game allow to throw 25-30 times and we're not constantly playing catch up, Kirk could prove to be the QB we all hope he can be.

[Jumbo]

Hi mooka!   It's been awhile. If your absence has included reading the board, you've missed an...interesting...couple of years. Let's just call it "Redskins history of QB controversy as it's worst." 

 

(so pardon me for a moment)

 

To the mega-rehashers with their perpetual axes to grind---don't "go" with the same ole same ole for the 10,000th time.  

 

Address the OP's views and areas of interest---he offered several.

 

 

 

To your Scot angle, Mooka, I'm one of those who is very concerned about this stuff many others find silly or irrelevant, including his personal history. Not his football acumen (which is not infallible either of course). Certainly, I hope my concern is misplaced.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I don't subscribe to the "It will take five years to rebuild" idea that some of our more esteemed posters (Hi, SHF!!) subscribe to.

 

Any NFL team can be turned around from top to bottom in two years. Since I'm not sure we are currently an NFL team, I'll go with three in this instance.

 

The Lions were 0-16 in 2008 and 10-6 in 2011. And that's with a maniac at head coach.

 

Assuming that Scot is not found drunk and pantsless in Dupont Circle over the weekend, he's in year one of comprehensive rebuild. I have to think that this year is really an audition for everyone under him - Gruden, the scouts, the quarterbacks.

 

Scot doesn't seem like the kind of dude to come in and tear things up immediately. That ESPN profile last year showed how having to fire Mike Nolan was a contributor to his problems there.

 

At the same time, no GM is going to be beholden to the mistakes of his predecessors. No GM is going to go 6-10 every year because Jay Gruden's brother is a hoot. No GM is going to pass up a top-end QB prospect because Cousins has moxie.

 

So, I assume that Gruden and the QBs will be upgraded this off-season if there is anything better available.

 

And personally, I think there HAS to be better available.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Who here wants to bet that any of our QBs will be starting in 2016 or beyond? (on our roster even?) Hell, week 2 is a dicey bet after we start against Miami. So are our Qbs completely irrelevant after allllllllll those draft picks and all the development we've gone through? Eh, possibly. 

 

More than a few writers out there agree with you on the above:

 

 

Kirk Cousins isn't better than RGIII

 

Even though those numbers are bad and indicate he is turnover prone, Cousins' strongest selling point is often that he understands how to run the offense. But that doesn't mean he's much better at executing it than RGIII. In fact, he's arguably not better at all. Last year, during his only year in Gruden's offense, Cousins started five games and threw 204 passes. He completed 61.8 percent of his throws for 1,710 yards, throwing 10 touchdowns to nine interceptions. Although he had fewer interceptions than touchdowns, Cousins proved to be the worst tracked quarterback in the Interceptable Passes Project, which aims to separate blame for interceptions from quarterbacks and receivers while counting interceptable passes that defenders don't take advantage of (dropping the ball, misreading the flight of the ball or falling down before they could catch it). 

 

It wasn't just that Cousins had the worst rate of interceptable passes -- he was a long way away from being even average. Griffin was close to average, throwing an interceptable pass once every 23.8 attempts, while Cousins threw one once every 11.3 attempts.

 

 

*In case anyone is wondering, this is the example they give for an "interceptable pass":

 

http://gfycat.com/FaithfulBlushingJay

 

 

 

 

Neither RG III nor Cousins is answer for Redskins

 

The fact is that whichever of these two QBs earned the starting gig was unlikely to man that role all season long – that’s how inconsistent both have been. Let’s compare the two:

 

–RG III won the 2012 offensive rookie of the year award in very impressing fashion, ranking as our No. 1 QB in accuracy under pressure and No. 9 in passing grade. However, Griffin has been unable to replicate that success on a consistent basis. While he still possesses impressive accuracy when throwing from a clean pocket, his composure under pressure has taken a hit. After grading at +5.2 under pressure in 2012, RG III has posted back-to-back years worse than -8.9 – those are really bad numbers.

 

–Cousins has been a curious case himself. Drafted two rounds after RG III, many questioned the move by the Redskins’ brass. When RG III went down with an injury during the closing stretches of 2012, Cousins stepped in and put together two great games, grading at a very impressive +5.0. When Griffin struggled with his consistency in 2013 and then-coach Mike Shanahan infamously benched RG III for health reasons, Cousins flopped — posting four straight games of negative grades.

 

After Griffin got injured in Week 2 of the 2014 season, Cousins was electric in relief, posting an outstanding +8.2 passing grade. But then he followed up with a -6.9 the very next game, and more poor performances after that, leading to his being benched for Colt McCoy (he wasn’t any good in our grading system, either).

 

In summary, neither player instills confidence that he can be the long-term answer at the position for Washington.

 

 

 

I don't agree with your Cavanaugh theory though...it would be a waste of time to bring him in if he's not really any good with young QBs unless the plan from the start was to sign a good vet QB after this year.

[Brokenstriker]

an entire premise based on a 9 start QB with a ~ 1:1 TD to INT ratio?  You'd clear out space in the hall of fame if that was a non-starter beginning for a good QB.  e.g., Aikman 1:2 first 11 games, 1:1.89 after 2 full seasons ... Jurgensen 0.79:1 after 18 starts ... Theismann 1:1.29 after 11 starts ...

 
"interceptable pass"

 is that like a 80 mph change up right down the middle for a strike ... that should have been hit?

 

not impressed with interceptable pass as a stat ... we should measure what matters ... completion or lack of completion ... that my friend is the question 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

 is that like a 80 mph change up right down the middle for a strike ... that should have been hit?

 

not impressed with interceptable pass as a stat ... we should measure what matters ... completion or lack of completion ... that my friend is the question 

 

I look at it like a fumble that isn't lost: even if it doesn't count as a turnover it still speaks to ball security.

 

Even if the "interceptable pass" isn't intercepted, it can still speak to decision-making...especially if you're reviewing them within the context of what other options were available when the pass was thrown.

 

Long story short: Couins' decision making last year lead to gawd awful INTs and Griffin's decision making last year got him sacked like a mf'er. Neither QB gives much reason to feel they could be the answer.

[Brokenstriker]

I look at it like a fumble that isn't lost: even if it doesn't count as a turnover it still speaks to ball security.

 

Even if the "interceptable pass" isn't intercepted, it can still speak to decision-making...especially if you're reviewing them within the context of what other options were available when the pass was thrown.

 

Long story short: Couins' decision making last year lead to gawd awful INTs and Griffin's decision making last year got him sacked like a mf'er. Neither QB gives much reason to feel they could be the answer.

its not looking good I agree about that ... I am inclined to give a nod to Cousins though given his ability to put points on the board

 

re: the thread though ... the INT issue with Cousins isn't in and of itself an established basis to conclude Cousins couldn't be an excellent QB ... based on excellent QBs who had similar beginnings

[Burgold]

I look at it like a fumble that isn't lost: even if it doesn't count as a turnover it still speaks to ball security.

I just think of the fumble that's not lost as a sack... albeit a scarier sack.

[Mooka]

an entire premise based on a 9 start QB with a ~ 1:1 TD to INT ratio?  You'd clear out space in the hall of fame if that was a non-starter beginning for a good QB.  e.g., Aikman 1:2 first 11 games, 1:1.89 after 2 full seasons ... Jurgensen 0.79:1 after 18 starts ... Theismann 1:1.29 after 11 starts ...

 

This is 2015. Very different game. Stats-wise Tony romoSUCKS is one of the best QBs in NFL history. During his career though, it would be hard to put him in the top 5 just against his current peers. It is a small sample size but this is his 4th season and he has started games in all 3 seasons in the NFL. Teams are no longer going to give guys like Blake Bortles 3 seasons of growing pains. 

 

The 1:1 ratio is just a small example of how Kirk Cousins will not fit our team's direction if he cannot protect the football. That kind of football will not work with our team and if Gruden has too, he'll throw Colt McCoy out there if he can at least not turn the ball over. 

 

I'm rooting for the guy, but would I bet on his success or that he'll be a Redskin come 2016 and on? Hell no. That's like betting on a winning season this year. 

 

 

To your Scot angle, Mooka, I'm one of those who is very concerned about this stuff many others find silly or irrelevant, including his personal history. Not his football acumen (which is not infallible either of course). Certainly, I hope my concern is misplaced.

 

Heya Jumbo, 

 

Must've been quite bad, if it was worse then the Campbell or Mark Booonell days. But maybe I was a main contributor there. 

 

I am quite disappointed in this last drama with McCloughan but as long as he's not drinking I'm treating it like the regular noise. If it starts pointing in a direction of drinking or partying rather then a personal infidelity thing then I think we can all expect his days to be very short. You may take the media leak angle more seriously then the rest of us. You ES mods are media....     :there used to be a paranoid smiley: 

 

 

 

I don't agree with your Cavanaugh theory though...it would be a waste of time to bring him in if he's not really any good with young QBs unless the plan from the start was to sign a good vet QB after this year.

 

Again, I don't know how good of a QBs coach he really is; he seems to focus on basic fundamentals, but his experience is working with more vet QBs then developing younger ones and he's certainly had no success working with younger QBs. 

 

But I agree with you and its why I think bringing him here may have been telling. It does seem to be a waste of time to sign a QBs coach that doesn't seem to be any good with young QBs at this particular time. I don't think it means we're planning necessarily on finding a good vet or at least I hope not, more so that our FO views the QB situation as something we'll have to weather through rather then build our entire team around. 

[TheItalianStallion]

Cousins does turn the ball over a lot, and perhaps that is fundamentally incompatible with GMSM's long-term vision, but Griffin fumbles to the point where his turnover problems aren't much better than Cousins', and I remember McCoy having more fumble problems than Cousins as well, though I might be wrong about that.

 

The reason why I'm in Cousins' corner now (but don't confuse me for one of the irrational ones; I defended RG3 until the TB game last year) is NOT because "he understands how to run the offense," but rather that, in addition to being an INT machine, he was also a machine in yardage, TDs, and YPA (yes, he had DJax catching his passes, but so did Colt & RG3), and against some good defenses too. I think the most likely answer is not on the roster, but I think Kirk has shown enough to be at least somewhat hopeful about prospects for panning out this year.

 

That's a good point, though, about what kind of QB that GMSM probably wants long-term. Given that we aren't there yet in terms building a tough team that can control the clock on both sides of the ball, perhaps an aggressive QB is more conducive to winning in the short term, however.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

I haven't seen Scot's plan but I bet it includes contingencies depending on whether any of the QBs play well this season or not.

[MR2Drift]

The only identity that matters is winner or loser, everything else is coach speak that means nothing. We went from a finesse ZBS line to power scheme, great does that mean we are guaranteed to be good, nope. No one was complaining about the ZBS scheme during the RG3/Morris show. Bronco's being a top contender went from power blocking to a ZBS scheme, does  that mean a power scheme sucks, nope.

 

What I'm trying to say is that there are various schemes in the NFL, based on finesse or power that have shown to work. So it doesn't matter what route you go as long as you have the proper coaching and players to run that specific scheme. Biggest issue is that the Redskins are such a dysfunctional organization that we never have a chance to carry over a lot of the talent due to scheme changes. Prime example is Morris, a great ZBS runner, but he's done here because his effectiveness goes drastically down as a power runner. All I want is team with a vision that works towards that year after, not having to scrap it after a year or two and go in another direction. Hopefully Scot is that guy but if the rumors of him leaking private info to the media are true his days are numbered.

[kingarthur65]

11. Please do not use the “Quote” feature to quote pics, gifs, vids, or any large sections of text.

It unnecessarily extends and clutters threads and is annoying. Edit them out.

If you would like to respond to the contents of a particular post, simply quote the sentence or idea that you're commenting upon, not the entire post if it's lengthy.

Are you really trying to tell us that Cavanaugh was brought in here to coach a QB that isn't on the team? Why? Is he in such high demand that we couldn't hire him after we signed a veteran QB? It just doesn't make sense to me.

[kingarthur65]

Sorry but I'm not judging Kirk yet based on games when we're playing from behind and throwing the ball 40 times a game. All young QBs put in that position are going to throw picks. If we ever get to a place where our defense and running game allow to throw 25-30 times and we're not constantly playing catch up, Kirk could prove to be the QB we all hope he can be.

 

I agree.  5 of Kirk's 9 interceptions came in the 4th qtr.  He was playing from behind and it looked like he was trying to make a big play.  I think 4 of those interceptions were attempts over 15 yards as well.  

Cousins has improved every year as a pro.  I think we'll see him improve his interception ratio by a substantial amount this year.

[Koolblue13]

Are you really trying to tell us that Cavanaugh was brought in here to coach a QB that isn't on the team? Why? Is he in such high demand that we couldn't hire him after we signed a veteran QB? It just doesn't make sense to me.

did you really just quote that entire wall of text?

I agree. 5 of Kirk's 9 interceptions came in the 4th qtr. He was playing from behind and it looked like he was trying to make a big play. I think 4 of those interceptions were attempts over 15 yards as well.

Cousins has improved every year as a pro. I think we'll see him improve his interception ratio by a substantial amount this year.

I think the kid is going to be great.

[Brokenstriker]

 

This is 2015. Very different game. ...

 

dude ... rock on!

 

I'm with you 100% ... 1:1 isn't what you want ... I was just commenting that at the beginning of a career its not that unusal and it doesn't necessarily equate to 1:1 over a career.  Some great QBs started out as INT prone or more so than Capt. Kirk.  He has to improve to be acceptable ... I just think it's not a lost cause.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Cousins has improved every year as a pro.

No he hasn't lol...how was he better in 2013 than in 2012? For that matter, how was he better in 2014 than in 2012?

[Taylor703]

I agree. 5 of Kirk's 9 interceptions came in the 4th qtr. He was playing from behind and it looked like he was trying to make a big play. I think 4 of those interceptions were attempts over 15 yards as well.

Cousins has improved every year as a pro. I think we'll see him improve his interception ratio by a substantial amount this year.

How has he improved? The dude was so bad last year that they made him inactive. I'm still shocked he's on this roster, let alone starting.

[Mooka]

 Biggest issue is that the Redskins are such a dysfunctional organization that we never have a chance to carry over a lot of the talent due to scheme changes.

 

We haven't had a true GM for a long time now. Hopefully McCloughan behaves and can stay. For the Redskins, allowing a coach like Steve Spurrier or Mike Shanahan to build their own teams have been disastrous to our franchise. 

 

 

 

Are you really trying to tell us that Cavanaugh was brought in here to coach a QB that isn't on the team?  Why?  Is he in such high demand that we couldn't hire him after we signed a veteran QB?  It just doesn't make sense to me.  

Edit your quote please.

 

I'm pointing out that Cavanaugh has little experience working with young QBs and less success. So you are correct, it doesn't make much sense to bring him here if it is to continue the development of our young QBs. My claim is Cavanaugh is here to help out a bad situation and weather the storm.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

How has he improved? The dude was so bad last year that they made him inactive. I'm still shocked he's on this roster, let alone starting.

At the end of the 2013 season, 90% of this board was calling Cousins "garbage" and saying he destroyed his trade value, he played so bad. It sticks out in my mind because I was one of the very few sticking up for him at the time lol...

The OP basically says the Redskins don't have an answer at QB on the roster. While every game will have me thinking positively about Cousins, right now I have to agree.

[roanoker]

Based upon what Ive seen so far, SM may be the answer to our aquiring quality players. We will see soon enough. I hope he can keep himself and his house in order. Regarding QBs, if Cousins turns out to be Grossman 2.0 it's going to be a long season.

[NoCalMike]

Right now I am leaning towards the roster just not having a star at QB. Each QB has a set of flaws that will hold a 9-7/10-6 capable team back and will probably instead mean they win 6-7 games.

 

Look at the last few seasons in the NFL and you can see for your own eyes how a team must be built in order to win consistently without a Top 5-10ish QB.  Every other aspect of the team has to be pretty much dominant.  You don't build a dominant team in a couple offseasons. 

[Jumbo]

Speaking of Scot, this is another call-out to the perpetually hypocritical and very biased among us (as most embodied recently in a certain stadium demographic)...had this whole Dianna bj story been attached to Mrs. Gruden and Stupid Jay instead of Savior Scot, can you imagine how many of those calling for "let's just drop, it's not our business and we don't really know anything" would be absolutely livid and incessant with the high-volume blowback?  

 

And there would be a fair share even among the lesser-afflicted members in the same demographic who would be making WAY more of a fuss than they have made.That kind of double-standard and talk out of both sides of your mouth to suit your agenda BS has been massive in here the last year-plus in particular. 

 

 

This isn't about the ultimately decided or currently debatable merits of Jay or Scot--it's about brain-incapacitating bias and bone-deep hypocrisy.

[NickyJ]

Speaking of Scot, this is another call-out to the perpetually hypocritical and very biased among us (as most embodied recently in a certain stadium demographic)...had this whole Dianna bj story been attached to Mrs. Gruden and Stupid Jay instead of Savior Scot, can you imagine how many of those calling for "let's just drop, it's not our business and we don't really know anything" would be absolutely livid and incessant with the high-volume blowback?  

 

And there would be a fair share even among the lesser-afflicted members in the same demographic who would be making WAY more of a fuss than they have made.That kind of double-standard and talk out of both sides of your mouth to suit your agenda BS has been massive in here the last year-plus in particular. 

 

 

This isn't about the ultimately decided or currently debatable merits of Jay or Scot--it's about brain-incapacitating bias and bone-deep hypocrisy.

To be fair, what you described with Jay Gruden would be the same for pretty much every staff and player position on the team, especially those related to our polarizing quarterbacks. The reason Scott isn't getting the same full fury is because too many people are willing to overlook the faults of the savior they're so desperate to find in him. If this had been Cerrato, we'd run him out of town on a rail. People here are desperate for a hero, and Scott fit that bill..... until the tweets. Even now, they still hope he can be, even with the possibility that he's straying from the path early on. I do find it disappointing, but I wouldn't call it surprising.