mistertim Posted October 21, 2018 Share Posted October 21, 2018 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Llevron said: My only argument with the comply comply comply thing is that you can still do that and get your ass kicked, or die. And if you are afraid for your life then non compliance is understandable. There is a reason to distrust the police. It may be stupid to not comply, cause they will kill your ass, but there is reason. Yeah that was basically what I meant. "Comply comply comply" only has meaning if complying actually does anything. It just sounds like something that a person who likely won't have to ever really worry about being beaten or murdered by the police would say. I think complying with the police is generally a very smart idea obviously, but the statement just struck me as a bit out of touch. Edited October 21, 2018 by mistertim 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted October 21, 2018 Share Posted October 21, 2018 32 minutes ago, mistertim said: Yeah that was basically what I meant. "Comply comply comply" only has meaning if complying actually does anything. It just sounds like something that a person who likely won't have to ever really worry about being beaten or murdered by the police would say. I think complying with the police is generally a very smart idea obviously, but the statement just struck me as a bit out of touch. Totally. That privilege is real despite what some think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 4 hours ago, mistertim said: Yeah that was basically what I meant. "Comply comply comply" only has meaning if complying actually does anything. It just sounds like something that a person who likely won't have to ever really worry about being beaten or murdered by the police would say. I think complying with the police is generally a very smart idea obviously, but the statement just struck me as a bit out of touch. Indeed Only privileged people say “comply comply comply” because they will never be in that situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, Llevron said: My only argument with the comply comply comply thing is that you can still do that and get your ass kicked, or die. Yeah, that is true and all, but not in this case.... Quote And if you are afraid for your life then non compliance is understandable. There is a reason to distrust the police. It may be stupid to not comply, cause they will kill your ass, but there is reason. No... compliance is always your best option... 1 hour ago, BenningRoadSkin said: Indeed Only privileged people say “comply comply comply” because they will never be in that situation. Yeah, because I won’t be returning to a mall to cause trouble after I was told to leave. You are correct, sir. Edited October 22, 2018 by CousinsCowgirl84 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 The only sensible way to interact with police is to do whatever they say, all while refusing to answer any questions other than your name as politely as possible. There are exceptions. This being true doesn't mean the current situation is acceptable or right. It doesn't mean that victims of police brutality are to blame for what's been done to them. We shouldn't confuse prudent advice that may be needed to do to keep ourselves safe with the way things should work. Those adult police officers should not have beaten that girl. It's less likely those cops would have beaten her had she been polite and compliant, but those cops still shouldn't have beaten on a 14 year old girl. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 The police have authority to force you to comply, even if that means punching a kid. are you suggesting you don’t think police have the authority to force compliance? How many times do should you ask her to put her hands behind her back before taking her to the ground? Just wondering what you would do since it is fact that 1) she didn’t not comply with a lawful request 2) cops have authority to force compliance 3) they already asked her to leave previously I don’t understand what you expect the cop to do in that case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosher Ham Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 I don't see that as a beating really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 compliance blows are generally considered less harmful than forcing the arm movement for all involved. I prefer pain mechanics methods myself, a bit of pressure in the right spots and most folk get more agreeable to following directions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 I think it is more likely than not that the cops were wrong. But I would like to see more video. The majority of the time stuff like this comes out, there is no video of events leading up to what is shown. And I think seeing/knowing what happened beforehand is important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 I dont know how some of you expect to have a conversation in good faith while completely ignoring the points of the people you are debating against. Yes, we know the cops are legally able to force compliance. No ****. We are also aware (and have said) compliance is the best method. Ignoring that we have acknowledged and agreed to this just to restate your point over and over isnt really going to get us anywhere. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 5 hours ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: The police have authority to force you to comply, even if that means punching a kid. are you suggesting you don’t think police have the authority to force compliance? How many times do should you ask her to put her hands behind her back before taking her to the ground? Just wondering what you would do since it is fact that 1) she didn’t not comply with a lawful request 2) cops have authority to force compliance 3) they already asked her to leave previously I don’t understand what you expect the cop to do in that case. As @Llevronsaid above, I don't think anyone here is arguing that the police don't have the legal authority to force compliance if necessary. The question is whether or not it was actually necessary to do what they did in this instance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 5 hours ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: The police have authority to force you to comply, even if that means punching a kid. are you suggesting you don’t think police have the authority to force compliance? How many times do should you ask her to put her hands behind her back before taking her to the ground? Just wondering what you would do since it is fact that 1) she didn’t not comply with a lawful request 2) cops have authority to force compliance 3) they already asked her to leave previously I don’t understand what you expect the cop to do in that case. I have authority to force compliance with my child, do you imagine that I punch her in the kidneys if she refuses to immediately do what I want? This was a 14 year old girl. Is it really asking too much for officers not to escalate the situation to violence so quickly? Was there a bank robbery across town they needed to get to, what was the urgency here? Show some patience, some humanity, and maybe try to assure her that everything is go to be ok and that she’s not in danger. We should do demand better than this for our people, by which I mean all people in our society, but we sure as hell should demand better than this for our children. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 How much patience should he show? He asked her to leave once, she left and game back to start trouble, he told her to put her hands behind her back, she refused. Are we talking 30 minutes? An hour? 3 hours? you are saying that got out their cop car and immediately starting punching her in the ribs. That’s a perversion of the truth. There are many cases that show real police brutality. Pointing to this, while sensational because it involves a child, weakens your argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 54 minutes ago, mistertim said: The question is whether or not it was actually necessary to do what they did in this instance. 34 minutes ago, Destino said: Is it really asking too much for officers not to escalate the situation to violence so quickly? Again why I said we need to see more video. And why I think it is healthy to not rush to judgement based on a short clip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 20 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: How much patience should he show? He asked her to leave once, she left and game back to start trouble, he told her to put her hands behind her back, she refused. Are we talking 30 minutes? An hour? 3 hours? you are saying that got out their cop car and immediately starting punching her in the ribs. That’s a perversion of the truth. There are many cases that show real police brutality. Pointing to this, while sensational because it involves a child, weakens your argument. Destino absolutely did not say that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Destino said: do you imagine that I punch her in the kidneys if she refuses to immediately do what I want? 49 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: you are saying that got out their cop car and immediately starting punching her in the ribs. 27 minutes ago, mistertim said: Destino absolutely did not say that. What is your definition of immediate? (Which is what asked already) Edited October 22, 2018 by CousinsCowgirl84 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 16 hours ago, Destino said: The only sensible way to interact with police is to do whatever they say, all while refusing to answer any questions other than your name as politely as possible. This is correct. 1 hour ago, mistertim said: Destino absolutely did not say that. His post basically said they escalated too quickly. He used the word immediately in describing his (completely different and not applicable) analogy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 2 hours ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: How much patience should he show? He asked her to leave once, she left and game back to start trouble, he told her to put her hands behind her back, she refused. Are we talking 30 minutes? An hour? 3 hours? As much as possible, because we’re talking about our children here. Is an hour wearing them down until they relax really asking too much? Was there a bank robbery across town these cops needed to get to? Quote you are saying that got out their cop car and immediately starting punching her in the ribs. That’s a perversion of the truth. There are many cases that show real police brutality. Pointing to this, while sensational because it involves a child, weakens your argument. I don’t think saying children should be treated differently than adults weakens my argument at all. Kids are not adults and should not be treated as if they were. I also don’t think saying cops escalate things to violence too quickly, we’ve seen countless examples of cops barking orders and then immediately pouncing on people. This is not the same as saying they just jumped out and started beating her, which I have not said. (Though they did murder Tamir Rice before he had a chance to even process what was happening, so it’s not unheard of.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 (edited) @DestinoCops showed patience the first time they were called out. She didn’t listen. And another hour of saying please won’t really serve her well in life. Its not that saying children are the same as adults that weakens your case, it’s saying this amounts to police brutality because the cops didn’t hang around for an hour whispering sweet nothings in her ear after telling her to leave earlier. The cops tried patience already. Bringing up examples of real police brutality are irrelevant to this case. Edited October 22, 2018 by CousinsCowgirl84 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groovedigger Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 Great thread. Here's a video of the cops shooting the wrong suspect 50 times. https://newsmaven.io/pinacnews/police-brutality/watch-denver-cops-fatally-shoot-wrong-suspect-50-times-Amwu8JIEgUmNvLvvQa8zAw/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 22 hours ago, Destino said: As much as possible, because we’re talking about our children here. Is an hour wearing them down until they relax really asking too much? Was there a bank robbery across town these cops needed to get to? I don’t think saying children should be treated differently than adults weakens my argument at all. Kids are not adults and should not be treated as if they were. I also don’t think saying cops escalate things to violence too quickly, we’ve seen countless examples of cops barking orders and then immediately pouncing on people. This is not the same as saying they just jumped out and started beating her, which I have not said. (Though they did murder Tamir Rice before he had a chance to even process what was happening, so it’s not unheard of.) Did the cops attempt to identify and/or contact the minor's parents at all before getting physical? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 28 minutes ago, Groovedigger said: Great thread. Here's a video of the cops shooting the wrong suspect 50 times. https://newsmaven.io/pinacnews/police-brutality/watch-denver-cops-fatally-shoot-wrong-suspect-50-times-Amwu8JIEgUmNvLvvQa8zAw/ The first part of the video shows the cam of the officer that approached the vehicle from the passenger side and stop sort of behind it and begins shouting “show me your hands”. It doesn’t look like he’d be able to actually see the driver through those tinted windows and his angle. I could be wrong but he seems to fire first. The second cam shows the officer that approaches the driver side, and it kind of looks like the driver does show his hands before the shooting starts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groovedigger Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Destino said: The first part of the video shows the cam of the officer that approached the vehicle from the passenger side and stop sort of behind it and begins shouting “show me your hands”. It doesn’t look like he’d be able to actually see the driver through those tinted windows and his angle. I could be wrong but he seems to fire first. The second cam shows the officer that approaches the driver side, and it kind of looks like the driver does show his hands before the shooting starts. I suspect the only reason they were able to pursue a suspect they hadn't correctly identified is because they thought he was probably the guy who killed a cop. And probably was good enough. You are right though.. it kinda does look like he shows his hands. Edited October 23, 2018 by Groovedigger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
China Posted October 28, 2018 Share Posted October 28, 2018 Kopy's owner says Pagans caused no trouble before brawl with cops A statement from the Kopy’s bar owner who tended bar the night four Pagan motorcycle club members brawled with undercover officers appears to challenge how Pittsburgh police have described the fight. The attorney for one of the bikers charged in the brawl contends the police officers were drunk and started the fight because the cops didn’t like how the motorcycle club members were dressed. A court affidavit from Stephen Kopy indicates that the undercover officers came in about 7:30 p.m. Oct. 11 and identified themselves as construction workers. They ordered alcoholic drinks, Kopy wrote. The Pagans came in about 11:30 p.m. and sat at the opposite end of the bar. “On several occasions, the undercover officers called me over and made statements indicating that they had an issue with the bikers at the other side of the bar,” Kopy wrote. “Each time I discouraged them from taking action.” Twice before the fight, one of the officers spoke to the Pagans, but Kopy was not certain what was said, he wrote in the affidavit. Shortly before 12:30 a.m. Oct. 12, one officer identified himself as an undercover officer and told Kopy “he liked me and did not want to see anything happen to my bar,” according to the affidavit. Later, two of the undercover officers asked Kopy if he’d outed them as cops to the bikers, according to the affidavit. Kopy told them he’d been unaware they were law enforcement until just before the fight. One week later, a city detective came to remove the security camera hard drive and make a copy, Kopy wrote. Kopy had also provided copies to attorneys for the bikers and the Pittsburgh Police Citizens Review Board after they requested them. The detective told Kopy that during the process the data was lost and the security system would not work. “Upon stating that the data might be lost, I informed that the (review board) and the bikers’ defense attorney had copies to which (the detective) sounded surprised to hear such news,” Kopy wrote. Click on the link for the full article Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
China Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 Shocking video shows Indiana cops brutally beating a handcuffed man as they're finally charged, 11 months after the attack Two Indiana police officers caught on video brutally punching a handcuffed man more than 10 times have been charged with battery nearly a year after the incident. Surveillance footage from the Elkhart Police Department shows officers Cory Newland and Joshua Titus standing in the station's detention area by Mario Guerrero Ledesma following the suspect's January 12 arrest. In the video, Ledesma can be seen with his hands cuffed behind his back as he prepares to spit at the officers before Newland warns him not to. When Ledesma ignores the warning and projects saliva anyway, the officers immediately tackle him to the ground, slamming his head into the concrete floor. They then proceed to beat into Ledesma for several seconds while hurling expletives at him. Three other officers who were watching the beating from the sidelines eventually tell Newland and Titus to stop. Click on the link for the full article and video Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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