The case for firing Gruden ASAP

[Duckus]

From Dan Steinberg via Twitter:

 

NFL teams have gotten the ball back, down by two scores, with < 3:00 left, 131 times since 2012. Only once have they punted.

 

[TSO]

I agree 100%  A lot of the moves make sense in a vacuum. Some don't.  (Luavao? What the hell?)

 

But when you put all the decisions together, they make NO sense.  

 

There's something to be said for adjusting to your talent.  I get that.  But it's really tough to adjust to your talent when part of your talent is not complementary to it'self.  If you adjust to make the passing game better, you break the running game.  You adjust to make the running game better, you break the passing game.  Just based on what different people are good at. 

 

It's lunacy. I don't even care if the GM isn't a great talent elevator.  That's why you have scouts.  What I want is a GM that has a complete view of the entire roster and organization, and understands how to use the information provided by the scouts to put together a roster.

 

Avoid a situation, like, say, drafting a second pass-rushing OLB in the first round (and then a 3rd pass-rushing OLB in the second round) of drafts to try and drum up a pass rush, not understanding that 60% of the time when you don't blitz, one of the OLB is either not on the field or dropping into coverage.  

 

That's the type of moronic personnel moves that CAN'T happen.  Forget that Kerrigan is maybe the best player on the defense.  He should NEVER have been drafted.  He's actually BETTER when Orakpo is out of the lineup, because it allows him to play his position more naturally, and not drop into coverage as often, because they are trying to get Orakpo pass-rushing attempts while not blitzing.

 

It's such elementary stupidity.  And it's been going on here since Bethard left, with Casserly, Vinny, Shanahan/Allen. for 30 years.  

 

You'd think at some point, we'd just catch a Goddamn break out of sheer luck.  

 

Yup, totally agree. But I would say that, in order to find that GM you mention here (one with a complete view), he should be a great talent evaluator himself. It'd certainly be an asset for him in helping him get to that "complete view" and understand fully what the scouts are doing, you know? 

[Voice_of_Reason]

 

See...I agree with you up till here, but it's your logic after here that confuses me. Or more, your logic getting there.

 

I can't speak for SubimttedOne, but for me, the GM and HC HAVE to be a team.  Each have their own responsibilities, but they have to work together.  I know that's how they do it in Baltimore.  The HC and GM work together. They define what they want the team to look like, they hire the coaches to conform, the scouts know the type of guys to get, everybody is on the same page.  

 

And when it comes to putting the final roster together, they do it together to make sure everybody is bought in.  

 

But here's the difference: The coach HAS to be focused on winning NOW.  That's his job.  He can't deviate from it.  The GM has to focus on the longer term.  And that's where you have compromise, which is good for everybody.

 

You can't hire a HC and say, "here are your players.  Good luck!"  That doesn't work.  It's got to be teamwork.  

 

Here's a question: Who from a FO perspective is actually having the personnel conversation with Gruden about what qualities he wants in a 3rd string OLB?  Allen?  I doubt it. Snyder?  Yeah, not so much.   So who IS actually putting the roster together.  I don't think it's Allen.  I know it's not Snyder except for the QB.  

 

So who is it?  It probably was Morocco Brown.  But he's gone.  So, really, it's a rudderless ship.  And it shows.  

Yup, totally agree. But I would say that, in order to find that GM you mention here (one with a complete view), he should be a great talent evaluator himself. It'd certainly be an asset for him in helping him get to that "complete view" and understand fully what the scouts are doing, you know? 

I don't disagree at all.  I guess my point is that I don't need a GM who is going to watch 6,000 hours of film breaking down the hand position of a RG from Talamuzu state that they might pick up in the 6th round. 

 

I'd like to have somebody who has done that before.    But I want somebody who knows how to manage the FO, the scouts, and the personnel dept, and then the make decisions based on the best information that he has, in conjunction with the coaches.  

 

Though, and this is really, really, important.  If a coach, (Let's call him Jim Haslett) stands up on the table to advocate for a player (let's call him Brian Orakpo), the GM HAS to have the authority to tell him it's a bad idea and can it.  Regardless of how it makes that coach feel.  

 

 

EDIT: I feel like this thread got hijacked away from "Fire Gruden!" (which is the topic of the thread) to "other things that are wrong with the organization. 

 

For that, to those who just want to fire Gruden, I apologize, but I personally don't see any benefit from firing Gruden, except maybe it makes you feel better, without addressing the real issues, because the next guy is going to have the same problem that every coach has had since Gibbs retired the first time in 1993.

[TSO]

^^ Which is why anyone coming here, presently, would be set up to fail. 

 

I mean, I guess I'm willing to concede that MAYBE bringing in the new guy with the new FO structure would be okay so they can work together... I just think there's such a lack of even a basic coherency to our personnel that he'll fail and I'd rather bring that guy in when he's allowed to succeed right away. It will help his message to always be accepted within the locker room and just makes life generally easier for any coach.

 

I'm, essentially, convinced that bringing in a new coach right now will ruin him. Just can't see another way, but I can be wrong. Doesn't look like it, though, when taking into account everything that has happened up until this point.    

 

I think Gruden can be that guy for now, since his offense is pretty standard around the NFL, anyway, and requires personnel that the vast majority of coaches could work with. And we get the added benefit of not ruining another guy in the process, lol. That's really my main point.  

 

EDIT: I feel like this thread got hijacked away from "Fire Gruden!" (which is the topic of the thread) to "other things that are wrong with the organization. 

 

For that, to those who just want to fire Gruden, I apologize, but I personally don't see any benefit from firing Gruden, except maybe it makes you feel better, without addressing the real issues, because the next guy is going to have the same problem that every coach has had since Gibbs retired the first time in 1993.

 

We're pretty much on the same page. And this thread deserves to be "hijacked", because now we're talking about the real issues.

[Brokenstriker]

clean house

remove or contain Allen and hire a proven legit GM

clean slate review across the board - top to bottom ... keep, compete for retension, or fire/cut/dump

trade any player on the roster for a day 1 draft pick

trade almost any player on the roster for a day 2 or better draft pick

trade about 50% of the players on the roster for a 4th or better pick

trade about 30% of the roster for a bag of balls or better

prioritize building

1 - OLine

2 - DLine

3 - Everything else on Offense and Defense except the QB

4 - QB

 

if the new GM fires Gruden ... fine

if the new GM keeps Gruden ... fine but he damn well better improve by game 1 of year 2

if anyone is fired or cut and there isn't a new GM ... f-it

if there isn't a new proven legit GM ... f'it

[Rodriggo]

Can somebody explain the happy, joyful interchange between Rob and Grudz after the 10-7 TD?

 

Whaaaaaaaaaaat the **** is the truth with this team?

[Redskin Diehard]

Am I the only one that thinks that NOBODY can turn this dumpster fire into a winning team.

It's impossible. Hasn't happened since Snyder bought the team. I think you're an idiot if you think a new coach stands any chance of a win in record here.

Simply put. YOU ARE AN IDIOT IF YOU THINK ANY NEW COACH WILL LEAD THIS TEAM TO A RECORD BETTER THAN 8-8.

Prove me wrong.

No you're not. As a matter of fact, that's a fairly obvious conclusion to draw at this point. Now getting back to what needs to happen going forward to possibly go 6 and 10 at some point... #FanWithVeryLowExpectations 

[TexasSkinsFan]

Anyone who wants to bring back Gruden simply loves being a masochist.  Look, I understand that some of you guys feel that being impatient will lead to more issues, etc.....Here's the deal.  Gruden was a bad hire for THIS team.  It is clear to a lot of us that this WILL NOT work out.  The team has NOT improved at all and looks to be more lost than last season.  If we are going to cut our loses, it needs to be with Gruden.  There is NOTHING he has done that shows he deserves to come back.  NOTHING.

 

Okay this is coming from a fan who doesn't want to fire Gruden. Not because I am a masochist, or whatever you said there, but because of the reality that exists outside of emotions. Your post there clearly sounds passionate and emotional. Now breath and listen.

 

Your football team is a mess, it's not Gruden's fault that Griffin is on this team or that it has been 3 years since they drafted in the 1st round or that it was docked 30 something million from its salary cap and today is only one year removed from that. Those issues happened LONG before Gruden ever took over yet he is the Captain of this ship that is reeling from those choices.

 

And you can't say that he didn't develop Griffin this year and that's his fault because it's thinking like yours that keeps this place a revolving losing door. When you threaten the head coach for losing games in a single season with his livelihood what is he exactly supposed to do? Should he

 

A. Play the struggling player who last won a game in the NFL on 11/3/2013 over a year ago?

B. A veteran QB who did well when given the chance?

 

Look around the league today...how many veteran journeyman QB's not to be confused with franchise QB's are starting these days? Off the top of my head Mark Sanchez, Kyle Orton, Ryan Fitzmagic, Colt McCoy, Derek Anderson, Josh McCown off the top of my head. And how many 3rd year QB's who are struggling badly are starting....Robert Griffin, Colin Kapernick, Ryan Tannehill...that list is much shorter and all of those guys are losing games and washing out. Why is that? I can't wait for an answer so I will tell you. Teams today know that they have to win games for everyone to keep a job, from the GM to the coaches to the players on the field. Today the average fan with so much football to watch has no patience for a struggling losing team. When a team starts to lose the fans today want the player, coach, GM, and owner fired. This is not the league of developing players for years so that they maybe can have 1 or 2 winning seasons anymore all the while losing every single year. Not when everyone's job is on the line they don't.

 

Gruden didn't develop Griffin and the next guy you want to name to bring in to coach this team won't develop Griffin either. These guys can't. If they play Griffin and he loses, in his last 18 starts he has lost 15 games so losing is much more likely then he wins a game, when he loses then it means guys like you want to see the head coach fired. You need to realize that no matter if it's Gruden or Belicheck himself, not one of the coaches out there will play Griffin if given the choice. Who actually wants to get fired?

 

So say you get your wish, Gruden is canned and they bring in the next guy. Your happy this offseason but look at the wreckage you have just created. First your inheriting a losing situation with the QB position where no matter what you do your going to upset someone and there is no right answer to play or not play. Second your inheriting the contracts that the last regime had signed to play the schemes they wanted to play. Last I checked the Redskins might have 20 million in cap space right now or less. They went on a spending spree last year and signed like 15 guys one of whom is costing you 8 million a year and who knows if these players can even fit the schemes the new guy wants to run? So your new shiny toy is now looking at a roster that is depleted of talent, with little money to get better, and an expectation that he is to walk in the door and immediately turn things around or the contract with ink so fresh it's not even dry yet will be torn up and you will be out of a job the next year.

 

Once you start canning people like this it's a revolving door so after your new toy wears off and you see that he also didn't improve to your liking are you willing to fire him too and start the process over again? That's exactly what it means that you are asking. Instead of standing pat with what you got and digging yourself out of a hole and really planning the next move in good fashion like dare I say it the Raiders who have 50% free cap space this year with a head coaching opening, instead your advocating for a knee jerk reaction without much thought about what you are asking of your new or current head coach and this situation at hand today.

 

If the Redskins really want to move forward and become a winning team they need to suck it up, accept that it's going to take 2 maybe 3 drafts to get it right, avoid spending money in free agency and instead the answer has to be they have to out research everyone else. They need to find those guys other people aren't looking at. They need to find the guys who like Gruden himself were in other leagues who might be able to contribute. They need to not spend the cap, they need to trade down in the draft and get more picks, they need to remember who they are - they are the team that won Championships with Hogs and make a new Hogs - And forget who they were - the last 15 years mostly - and start new with the old today so they can have new tomorrow.

 

Do I think your wrong and Gruden shouldn't be fired? No actually I agree with you on that, I have no problem with the idea of firing Gruden except it's not the right time today to do that. Do I think it should be this offseason? No I don't. Knee jerk reactions do not work for us and just shows that we haven't remembered our own history

[tshile]

I was all about hey - griffin is a problem child and needs to get his act together.

 

Then Gruden quit. He quit with 1:35 left to go yesterday.

 

I don't know how you bring that back.

 

139 times since 2012 a team has received the ball down 2 scores or less with 3 minutes or less to go.

 

Only once has the team punted.

 

That was us. Yesterday. Because our head coach told us to quit.

 

How do you bring that guy back?

[TexasSkinsFan]

I'll play...

(1) Hire a GM

(2) GM with Jay's input hires an experienced designated OC who can call plays and a experienced designated QB coach. Removing the playcalling duties should be open for discussion. Consider hiring a spread game analyst.

(3) Fire Haslett replace the defensive staff starting with DC and Secondary....

(4) Minor(ish) issue have a better challenge system at minimum remove Bruce Allen from the process

 

Fantastic post! I agree with all of it.

 

And I might add if that's all they did they wouldn't hurt future years cap numbers and that is how you learn to out think the rest of the league. You get the best staff around, who motivates everyone to get better, with a clear goal in mind with realistic expectations that knows you are not turning this situation around in one season no matter who else did that you want to name.

 

I honestly would be over the moon if this happened.

[Redskin Diehard]

Anyone who wants to repeat the same pattern of organizational dysfunction is a masochist. You say you understand not being impatient but I don't think you do. If you really did you'd realize that it's precisely this kind of impatience which has led to the current joke of an NFL franchise that is the Washington Redskins. I don't believe that gruden should be above criticism, but there are so many bigger problems, the main one being that the roster just flat out sucks. That is not on gruden and any coach ( and hopefully new GM) will need time to reverse the damage. But history says we will not allow for that and offer up the latest scapegoat. And out of desperation we will again mortgage away the future or give insane contracts to keep the loony bin afloat. It has happened so many times that I'm surprised there is not a more solid consensus to stop the madness. Still you have people focusing on where the problems are not.

If we are already considered a laughing stock, joke NFL franchise, what do we have to lose by starting over? It can't get much worse. And anybody who thinks Dan Snyder makes decisions based on public perception is fooling themselves. He has been called everything except a deranged criminal to date and some have gone as far as referring to him as the Anti-Christ. So what does he have to lose. Regardless of what Dan Snyder decides to do when the season is over, he will be ridiculed by the masses anyway. He gave Bruce Allen total control because he trusted his judgment and Bruce decided to utilize the good ole boy network to find his predecessor's replacement. Now the chickens are coming home to roost. 

[TexasSkinsFan]

I was all about hey - griffin is a problem child and needs to get his act together.

 

Then Gruden quit. He quit with 1:35 left to go yesterday.

 

I don't know how you bring that back.

 

139 times since 2012 a team has received the ball down 2 scores or less with 3 minutes or less to go.

 

Only once has the team punted.

 

That was us. Yesterday. Because our head coach told us to quit.

 

How do you bring that guy back?

 

It's called tanking, some times it works out like with Andrew Luck and Peyton Manning somehow both ending up on the Colts mysteriously and sometimes you don't tank and wish you had for the future like the Redskins did when they didn't just earn the 2nd overall pick in the draft they so coveted. Sometimes you just need to bite the bullet and do what's necessary. Honestly for as much as it would have felt good to beat those Gants yesterday I'm glad it didn't happen. What good would have come of it outside of a few hours of "wow we did it" feeling?

 

We need to take the long view, and stop looking at this as if it can be fixed in a single season. It cant be. And the higher the draft pick we have hopefully the better it will be for this team to trade down and get a bunch of picks. The cupboard is empty. It's like really really empty. We need losses more then wins today and I say that with one exception.

 

If I had a single wish for the Redskins today it would be this. Please practice the next two weeks for the Cowboys final game. Like seriously, don't waste any time at all worrying about stopping the Fecals, just skip right on over that and game plan for the Cowboys. I think if they spend the next two weeks for that game there is a real good chance that we can win it and effectively not only sweep the Cowboys this season but knock them out of the playoffs. That would be an amazing end of this season for all of us. That's my wish today.

 

Outside of that winning games in seasons when your 3-10 is just stupid. There is a reason that so many teams are 2 and 3 wins this year, other teams get this. They need those top players more then ever

[Redskin Diehard]

Do you know how many Super Bowl coaches didn't look anything like a Super Bowl coach their first year?

 

Good point but I'm guessing most Super Bowl head coaches have had to work their way to the top. Gruden was handed this job on a silver platter because of his pre-existing relationship with Bruce Allen. Don't get me wrong... I was intrigued by the gruden hire initially and I was even willing to trust his judgment when he decided to bench Robert in spite of the fact that one of the things he was hired to do was help Griffin improve. So in essence he has already failed at one of his most important marching orders this season. If Robert didn't improve after being in Gruden's system for at least 2 seasons I would have been fine with going in another direction at QB but red flags have been flying up all over the place since he gave up on proving what he could do with a raw QB such as Robert. His now famous rant "exposing" Robert's flaws is unprecedented and I just don't get a good feeling he knows what he's doing or will ever know what he's doing at this point. Why has this guy been anointed an offensive genuis/guru anyway? Andy Dalton isn't exactly tearing up the league this season after 3 years under Gruden's tutelage (gruden basically drafted dalton; he didn't inherit him) and I don't want to hear foolishness like... if gruden was still in Cincinnati, Dalton wouldn't have regressed cause that's some BS. #3playoffappearances #3losses

[Redskin Diehard]

How long has it taken Jason Garrett to succeed in Dallas?

 

Garrett was 5 and 3 as an interim head coach in 2010, 8 and 8 the past three seasons and even though I thought he was a glorified puppet with a very suspect defense, he has managed to go 10 and 4 so far this season. Bringing Garrett into this discussion is like comparing apples to watermelons. Garrett may be extremely corny with his excessive hand clapping after every positive play Dallas makes but I will give him credit... He has always maintained a calm professional demeanor even when his coaching career was in jeopardy and his team reflects that calm confidence. i.e. He has remained true to who he is as a head football coach. Gruden on the other hand has been in panic mode since the Vikings game. You can tell he assumed that was an automatic win and the Tampa Bay loss drove him completely over the deep end and that's when he decided he no longer wanted to live in Sideshow Bob/RG3's shadow.

[88Comrade2000]

Here's what going to happen.  Only one person will decide and that is Dan Snyder.

 

1.  Dan, Bruce & Jay will have a meeting on Black Monday morning.  Dan will say he believes Robert Griffin 3 can become a star and we need to focus on him. Bruce, the puppett will agree.  Jay, will disagree.  Jay will say he wants to go with Colt Mccoy or bring in another QB.  Dan tells Jay, he needs to discuss with Bruce for a minute. Jay steps out.  Dan tells puppett to make the coaching change.

Jay comes back in and is told he is fired.  The announcement is made by noon on Black Monday: 12/29.

 

2.  Dan tells Bruce that we need a big name coach that will get Robert to live up to his potential.  This will go one of two ways.

 

The first way will be that the Redskins will go after the top college coaches. Art Briles will definitely be in the equation. As matter of factor, it will not surprise me; if the Redskins have already inquired with some college coaches about a potential Redskins vacancy. It is the Snyder way to go after the next guy, while the current guy is still here.  In a couple of weeks, the Redskins annonce the hiring that big name college coach. If we do hire a college coach, that coach will also be given control over personnel. Bruce will lose those duties. So basically, the college coach will be our GM/Coach like Shanny was.

 

Should the Redskins fail to land a college coach, their option will be to go after a big name like Bill Cowher.  Dan Snyder will be rebuffed by all of the better big names & will end up having to settle for a pervious head coach desperate enough to return to the NFL. I give you one, Jim Fassell.  Bruce will then be tasked with finding an assistant GM; who will handle most of the personnel duities. Bruce will be back to being a cermonial GM.

 

I am sure Dan Snyder will contact Jim Harbaugh but he will be rebuffed quickly.   They are way too many better options for Jim and he would reject the Redskins.

 

So, we will spend the next 2 years with either a college coach or a deperate former head coach like Fassell; hoping to develop Robert.  The Redskins will ulimately fail and in January 2017; we will finally start over.  The Redskins will clean house. New everything.  This could be when Dan finally hires a real GM.

 

 

Gruden is pretty much dead man walking. He's gone. He's clearly moved on from wanting to deal wiht Robert. Snyder will dissagree and the change will be made.  We will spend the next years hope for Robert to live up to the potential we hope for him.  I believe that will fail; which will lead to the new regimine to be fired.

 

So, we start again.  It is very possible that the Redskns will have had 4 coaches in a 5 year period from 2013-2017.

[Bishop Hammer]

So the coaches here can not possibly succeed because of the craziness that is Redskins park, but coaches can succeed in Dallas?

I'm sorry, I just don't understand the people that can just completely absolve the Head Coach of a football team just to pin all the losses on a bad owner or organization.

Bcause the The Redskins are more dysfunctional than The Cowboys. Jones is a better owner and knows how to build a football team better than Snyder. Honestly the fact Jones understands the offensive line isn't an option or luxury to win and Snyder doesn't shows how little Snyder understands about the game of football. Was has had the same issues with the line since the Zorn years.

A competent person picking players would see the linemen on the current roster aren't a good fit for Gruden's offensive schemes. A person who knew what they were doing would've gotten bigger, stronger linemen which are required for a heavy pocket passing oriented offense. Instead Snyder and Allen keep small quick lineme geared for a constant running attack, which Jay is not known for. If they wanted to keep the same exact roster then hiring a coach who uses that sort of offense would have been a better fit than a guy who has the opposite philosophy.

[zoony]

Nbcdiana reporting that sources tell her Gruden's job is safe

The continued meltdown of the usual suspects will be entertaining

[SWFLSkins]

Nbcdiana reporting that sources tell her Gruden's job is safe

The continued meltdown of the usual suspects will be entertaining

Justin Byram ‏@Justin_Byram  27s28 seconds ago

Don't like that Grudens job is safe. Should have to show signs of hope these next two weeks for that to be the case.

 Adam Carriker and 7 others follow

Matt Facini ‏@mattfacini  6m6 minutes ago

So at 3pm when someone asked Jay about his status for next year he didn't know. But 3 hours later we know? Weird. #Redskins

[RandyHolt]

Jay's swinging gate may end up being giving up and punting at the end the game. 

 

Amazingly we got the ball back on a muff. TIme for a FG / Onside / Hail Mary

Nope

 

Its like tanking on purpose is going to help us improve our draft position.  

 

I want him replaced with a coach that will try to win next week.  Let's choose Haslett. For the trainwreck effect if nothing else.

 

Just when you think things couldn't get more bizarre after last week, here we are.

 

And OT but RG3 needs to get up off the field when tackled. it takes him longer to get up than any player I have ever seen. I always think he is injured when he is not. I am sure I am not alone. But it sends mixed message to fans teammates and coaches alike. 

[Rufus T Firefly]

Nbcdiana reporting that sources tell her Gruden's job is safe

The continued meltdown of the usual suspects will be entertaining

I assume that means Allen is safe too.

 

So we're probably throwing in the towel on Griffin having any chance of a Redskin career. And blowing off a year of the youth/prime of Williams, Kerrigan, Robinson.... And letting Allen spend high draft picks. And spend a chunk of our future cap dollars. 

 

But hey, continuity. Hooray us.

[Hersh]

I assume that means Allen is safe too.

 

So we're probably throwing in the towel on Griffin having any chance of a Redskin career. And blowing off a year of the youth/prime of Williams, Kerrigan, Robinson.... And letting Allen spend high draft picks. And spend a chunk of our future cap dollars. 

 

But hey, continuity. Hooray us.

 

I don't think there is anyone posting on this site that thinks Allen should be retained. Is there?

[Rufus T Firefly]

I don't think there is anyone posting on this site that thinks Allen should be retained. Is there?

Did you even read what I responded to? There was a tweet that Gruden has been told he's being retained for another year. My assumption is that that means Allen is back. It really doesn't matter if anyone here wants him to be retained, as that has nothing to do with my post.

[Boss_Hogg]

Jesus.

So Gruden will be back. Which means the homecoming planner is back, which means McVay is back. **** this ****.

Watch these bammas retain Haslett too.

**** my football life

[Rufus T Firefly]

Jesus.

So Gruden will be back. Which means the homecoming planner is back, which means McVay is back. **** this ****.

Watch these bammas retain Haslett too.

**** my football life

Don't worry. We only have to wait a year until we can hope a change will be made and then hope that competence is restored. And then we'll just have to wait a few years for a rebuilding job to bear fruit.

 

Doesn't that make you feel better?

[skins/psu1981]

I assume that means Allen is safe too.

 

So we're probably throwing in the towel on Griffin having any chance of a Redskin career. And blowing off a year of the youth/prime of Williams, Kerrigan, Robinson.... And letting Allen spend high draft picks. And spend a chunk of our future cap dollars. 

 

But hey, continuity. Hooray us.

That means Haslett will most likely be retained too. I'm feeling a magical tingly feeling in my pants. I'm a getting a chub!!