The case for firing Gruden ASAP

[Hersh]

Okay, so keeping Gruden so we can suck next year and have high draft picks for 2016 is your reason?  lmao.  omg.. 

 

If you don't want to read the rest, then sure. As I said, if he improves, then the team has improved. What's the downside? The roster is terrible and needs a couple of years to be overhauled.

 

So let's say a new coach comes in and the Redskins go 3-13 again next year. What's the plan after that? Another new coach? Do the Redskins never give a coach a chance to succeed beyond one year?

The Dallas Cowboys organization is the prime example of how not to run a football franchise

 

You should have stopped right there. They aren't an example of anything other than being average.

[VRIEL1]

You make some really good points. I just couldn't help but notice your respect for gruden's offense getting the Bengals to the playoffs and I think that's part of our problem here. As a fan base we see making the playoffs as an accomplishment now. We used to focus on winning Super Bowls and jay gruden has never been a part of that process. His brother won a SB with Tony Dungy's players but proceeded to fall off the map after that. In my opinion, the Gruden family coaching tree has entirely too much cachet at this point based on how so few experts have called jay to task for some of his goofs this season. Oh well...

 

True, but it's his first time coaching. I've also heard how DC media is different vs. other towns. For some reason our media is football savey and seems to ask some real difficult questions or questions that I would think should not be as it might give info to other teams. But DC media does it anyway.

 

I'm not saying just getting to the play offs is my standard. Heck my standard is the SB. But given our situation where this team is .500 or less for the last several years I'll take a starting point. If this team could string a winning season then build on it I'd be happy. Getting to the playoffs to me means your a good team and have at least a chance at getting to the SB. This team doesn't if it's 3-13.

 

I'll agree I think the Gruden's might get too much respect but John also put a good coaching staff together which helped the players. He didn't inherit a coaching staff. Maybe Jay will be able to hand pick some changes in his coaching staff but what I worry about is how loyal is he to the ones we got and will he keep them simply cause he's loyal? ie; Haslett? Chris Foester? McVay?

Do you know how many Super Bowl coaches didn't look anything like a Super Bowl coach their first year?

 

Pretty sure Tom Coughlin didn't.

[War Paint]

If you don't want to read the rest, then sure. As I said, if he improves, then the team has improved.

 

So let's say a new coach comes in and the Redskins go 3-13 again next year. What's the plan after that? Another new coach? Do the Redskins never give a coach a chance to succeed beyond one year?

He's not going to improve.  The man actually quit yesterday late in the 4th qt.  We saw something that you just don't see in the NFL.  The reasons for getting rid of him extend past the product on the field.  He is unprofessional.  He throws players under the bus.  He doesn't have a clue about coach speak.  The man has no business being our HC.  He was a terrible hire.  I will happily eat crow for thinking Gruden was a good hire.  Although Darrell Bevell was my first choice, Gruden was on my wish list.  I was wrong. 

[tshile]

I personally think the 'protecting my QB' line was utter bunkum.

 

But seriously, to give up on a game your down 2 scores with a minute 35 and great field position in, after your pathetic excuse for a football team has for once come out fighting and given everything they had; was nothing shy of an absolute disgrace.

 

Hail.

 

I hate the idea of firing a young coach that is respected by his peers after year one.

 

But between the quitting yesterday and the fact that over the last few weeks it's looked like the players stopped playing for him... it's hard to want to bring him back.

 

He ordered his team to quit yesterday. Quit. I do not believe I've ever seen that.

[VRIEL1]

Sekhmet187,

 

So you truly don't believe that Jay is calling run plays and possibly the inept QBing is changing the play at the LOS because they see the LB's walking up or Safeties walking up or to many men in the box to run the play? You'd just have the QB not make any decisions at all and simply run the play sent in? then maybe that's your way of getting back to RG3 since that's all he would do.

[TSO]

Keeping Gruden around for a 2nd year means keeping Allen as the GM for a 2nd year too and just postponing what has to happen. Allen needs to be replaced. Bruce Allen as GM means that Dan Snyder at any point can and will fall in love with some random college player or FA that we've just got to have and waste picks and cap on, which is what we've always done.

If this is true and we can't get rid of Allen without getting rid of Gruden (which I think is ridiculous, but hey, that totally fits Danny), then we shouldn't bring any legitimate coach in to ruin right now. Give one of the assistants, outside of Haz, the job for now.

Otherwise, all we'd be doing is ruining another coach who had been untarnished by us as of yet.

Let's get our house in order, complete construction and bring in the cleaning service before we allow the family to move in.

[Hersh]

He's not going to improve.  The man actually quit yesterday late in the 4th qt.  We saw something that you just don't see in the NFL.  The reasons for getting rid of him extend past the product on the field.  He is unprofessional.  He throws players under the bus.  He doesn't have a clue about coach speak.  The man has no business being our HC.  He was a terrible hire.  I will happily eat crow for thinking Gruden was a good hire.  Although Darrell Bevell was my first choice, Gruden was on my wish list.  I was wrong. 

 

Oh, well since you said he's not going to improve they should fire him now. Would you do me a favor, call Snyder up and tell him you are able to determine which people will and will not improve prior to giving them a chance? The Redskins would never miss on draft picks or hires and will be Champs before we know it.

 

Again, what if the next coach comes in here and goes 3-13? What's the long term plan at that point?

[Sekhmet187]

So the coaches here can not possibly succeed because of the craziness that is Redskins park, but coaches can succeed in Dallas? 

 

I'm sorry, I just don't understand the people that can just completely absolve the Head Coach of a football team just to pin all the losses on a bad owner or organization. 

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

I hate the idea of firing a young coach that is respected by his peers after year one.

 

But between the quitting yesterday and the fact that over the last few weeks it's looked like the players stopped playing for him... it's hard to want to bring him back.

 

He ordered his team to quit yesterday. Quit. I do not believe I've ever seen that.

 

I found it astounding.

 

When is a football game lost down 11 with a minute 35 left? Not least when you have great field position for a quick score. You score, 2 point convert, and take your chances at the onside. Hell, we even got the ball back on the late punt fumble.

 

That was just criminal and nothing shy of a disgrace however anyone wants to paint it.

 

Hail.

[VRIEL1]

I hate the idea of firing a young coach that is respected by his peers after year one.

 

But between the quitting yesterday and the fact that over the last few weeks it's looked like the players stopped playing for him... it's hard to want to bring him back.

 

He ordered his team to quit yesterday. Quit. I do not believe I've ever seen that.

 

I've pretty much quit on the team and find other things to do with my time. But, I did tape the game and watched it late last night so I could speed through the commercials. I stopped watching after the first half, which by the way was the better half. I had seen enough. At some point though you have to realize some of this discipline falls on the position coaches as well. This team had the same issues under Mike Shanahan. Maybe getting rid of Mikes assistant coaches will help Gruden.

Oh, well since you said he's not going to improve they should fire him now. Would you do me a favor, call Snyder up and tell him you are able to determine which people will and will not improve prior to giving them a chance? The Redskins would never miss on draft picks or hires and will be Champs before we know it.

 

Again, what if the next coach comes in here and goes 3-13? What's the long term plan at that point?

 

Hey, could he get rid of RG3 also since I know he won't improve either?

[War Paint]

Oh, well since you said he's not going to improve they should fire him now. Would you do me a favor, call Snyder up and tell him you are able to determine which people will and will not improve prior to giving them a chance? The Redskins would never miss on draft picks or hires and will be Champs before we know it.

We gave him a chance.  The team has gotten worse from last year.  There isn't one thing on the team one can point to where Gruden has us going into the right direction.  We'd probably be 1-13 without Djax.

[VRIEL1]

So the coaches here can not possibly succeed because of the craziness that is Redskins park, but coaches can succeed in Dallas? 

 

I'm sorry, I just don't understand the people that can just completely absolve the Head Coach of a football team just to pin all the losses on a bad owner or organization. 

 

Because when something is not working over a long period of time you have to look for the common denominator......Snyder.

[Hersh]

So the coaches here can not possibly succeed because of the craziness that is Redskins park, but coaches can succeed in Dallas? 

 

I'm sorry, I just don't understand the people that can just completely absolve the Head Coach of a football team just to pin all the losses on a bad owner or organization. 

 

How long has it taken Jason Garrett to succeed in Dallas?

We gave him a chance.  The team has gotten worse from last year.  There isn't one thing on the team one can point to where Gruden has us going into the right direction.  We'd probably be 1-13 without Djax.

 

So what happens if the new coach comes in and goes 3-13? BTW, maybe I'm wrong, but if you are an in-demand coordinator with multiple HC openings, why would you go to the one in which you could be out after one season?

[Sekhmet187]

Sekhmet187,

 

So you truly don't believe that Jay is calling run plays and possibly the inept QBing is changing the play at the LOS because they see the LB's walking up or Safeties walking up or to many men in the box to run the play? You'd just have the QB not make any decisions at all and simply run the play sent in? then maybe that's your way of getting back to RG3 since that's all he would do.

 

First of all, the defense wasn't just loading the box every single play, considering the Redskins call pass more than they run, the defense was ready for a pass heavy game and there were plenty of times they could have run the ball and try and gain traction. 

 

My issue is not that the QB can or can't be allowed to change the play call, which you seem to have latched onto, my issue is that A) The coach can't use that as an excuse for an answer when being questioned why he abandons the run or doesn't call many run plays, and just because you're not successful doesn't mean you just completely abandon the run. At least try some draws and screens or something.

[rocskins]

How long has it taken Jason Garrett to succeed in Dallas?

 

So what happens if the new coach comes in and goes 3-13? BTW, maybe I'm wrong, but if you are an in-demand coordinator with multiple HC openings, why would you go to the one in which you could be out after one season?

Jason Garrett never finished 3-13. 

[Bigmuss1]

Jason Garrett never finished 3-13. 

Yeah, cuz at least their crazy owner realizes that at some point you need to draft 1st round talent on your Oline...even Jerruh can get that right....ugh....

[Hersh]

Jason Garrett never finished 3-13. 

 

It took him 4 years before he improved his record. How many Super Bowl coaches were great their first season?

[darrelgreenie]

Pretty sure Tom Coughlin didn't.

? He went 4-12 with an EXPANSION team.

[Sekhmet187]

It took him 4 years before he improved his record. How many Super Bowl coaches were great their first season?

 

How many Super Bowl coaches quit on their team, threw players under the bus publicly in their first season and started 3 separate QBs in their first season?

[Gizmo 3squire]

Gruden, especially Haslett and Bruce has to go. Period. Or in Bruce's case, relinquish all GM duties and hire a real GM. Snyder won't survive next year if any of the 3 are kept in their current roles. There's def a storm brewing amongst the fans vs the owner.

[MattFancy]

It took him 4 years before he improved his record. How many Super Bowl coaches were great their first season?

 

Not a SB coach, but Jim Harbaugh took over a 6-10 49ers team and for the next 3 seasons had them in at least the NFCCG.

 

John Harbaugh took a 5-11 Ravens team and turned them into an 11-5 team the next season. And he's won a SB with them.

 

I'm not saying I expected Gruden to be great this year, but 3-11 isn't cutting it. I think alot of us thought this team could go at least 6-10 coming into this season.

[tshile]

I found it astounding.

 

When is a football game lost down 11 with a minute 35 left? Not least when you have great field position for a quick score. You score, 2 point convert, and take your chances at the onside. Hell, we even got the ball back on the late punt fumble.

 

That was just criminal and nothing shy of a disgrace however anyone wants to paint it.

 

Hail.

 

I just wish it would have happened at home...

 

Because we would have booed them off the ****ing field, as they deserved.

[War Paint]

How long has it taken Jason Garrett to succeed in Dallas?

 

So what happens if the new coach comes in and goes 3-13? BTW, maybe I'm wrong, but if you are an in-demand coordinator with multiple HC openings, why would you go to the one in which you could be out after one season?

Well, I don't recall Garrett going 3-13, playing musical chairs with the QBs, being unprofessional, throwing players under the bus, etc...Garrett's main criticism was always going 8-8. 

 

Honestly, we don't need to go for the in demand coordinator after Gruden is fired, unless that coordinator has HC experience in the NFL.  This organization isn't built for 1st time coaches.   There are only 32 teams in the NFL.  There are only a few opportunities to coach in the NFL.   There won't be a problem finding a coach.

 

What if you were a manager of a business and you hired someone you thought would be a good employee because they said the right things during the interview.  After a few days, you see the employee is rude to customers and doesn't produce.  After you talk to him,  he continues to run customers off and has poor production.  The employee has only been with you a week, but sometimes you have to say "this was a poor hire and he needs to be replaced."

[redskins4ever28]

If your looking for me to come out and say I back Gruden and give you a bunch of stats ....that aint gunna happen unless I go looking for the stats when Gruden was in Cinci.

 

However I back Gruden. Why? cause he inherited most of the assistant coaches. Yes he might have been able to go out and hand pick his people but knowing how DS has worked in the past I'm guessing these coaches were under contract and DS might have had to pay them and new people to come in.  

 

Which goes right a long with Gruden. Everyone wants to over look the fact Gruden will be making $16 mill over the next 4 yrs. I don't think DS is willing to fire Gruden, pay him $4 mill a year for the next 4 yrs and still go out and get another HC who I presume will command roughly 4-5 mill a year. Which is why I think Gruden is back. But I could see top brass sitting down with Gruden and saying you get one more year.....what do we need to do to make this work for you?

 

Which is why I thought of how could the team work to get better with out firing Gruden. I wanted to see what you guys came up with as far as coaching and who might come in or who could be brought in to assist. I know Grimm is looking for a HCing job but how close is he really to getting one? being out a year and ending on a bad note from Arizona I'd say see if he will come in and help fix the OL issues as he is some one who works his people hard to not make mistakes. Plus his OL's were tops in not allowing sacks with Pittsburg and Arizona.

 

I have felt Haslett has been the whole problem all along. Why we fired MS when the offense was the only working side of the ball and kept Haslett and the only none working side of the ball is beyond me. But.... time to fire him and bring in someone who knows when to zone and when not to zone and when to rush and when not to rush.

 

I still say Gruden's OL in Cinci were big OL who played man-to-man so it seemed to me. MS used smaller faster OL in his zone blocking scheme. I think Gruden needs to dump the whole OL and look for bigger man-to-man blockers and bring in Grimm to coach them up and get them ready for next year.

 

Gruden didnt inherit anything.

He kept the guys he knew from Florida and UFL, Arena, etc etc

Haslett gave him a job once, so Allen kept Haslett because Allen knew he was going to hire Gruden as HC.

He kept McVeigh because, again, previous ties.

If the coordinators were under contract and thats why there wasnt a clean house, then the one coordinator that shouldnt have been let go was Kyle.  Its a joke dude, they all wanted their buddies.

[darrelgreenie]

...Wouldn't be my preference, but if we keep Gruden this is kind of what I'd want.

 

I'm happy to have Gruden helping make the game plan for the week...hell, the HC should be giving that kind of input. But I just don't see him doing a good job juggling HC, OC, and QB coaching duties during the game and during the week.

I think Gruden is too involved and focused on the offense which distracts him from coaching the team as whole.

Then even when he's wearing the OC hat he's too involved/hung-up with the QBs (and he's not doing a good job there either).

The fact of the matter is that Jay had more help with the passing game/offense when he was the OC of the Bengals then he has now.

Hugh Jackson, Ken Zampese, Jon Hayes all vet coaches vs our current staff?

 

The only way I could imagine Jay returns is if those duties are taken off his plate. He can 'guide' the philosophy of the offense but allow an OC to handle all the coordination pieces EVEN if that OC does things with the offense that he wouldn't i.e. spread offense/zone read being a bigger part of the offense etc.