A fundamental problem: We don't understand what kind of bad owner Snyder is

[Thirtyfive2seven]

I agree with everything you said in the OP and it's evident that this is true.  That's why he hires people like Vinny Cerato and Bruce Allen.  He has NO CLUE how to hire smarter, talented people who will challenge him and push him out of football operations.  He needs a competent GM.  I thought we were getting one in BA, but I was wrong.  it's the same ****show every ****ing year.  I hate this organization so much!  It's what, week 6, and I'm ready for next season.  I hate being a fan of this team but it's the only team I care about.  Arrrgh!

I don't doubt Dan's passion for wanting a winning football team and spending to do it. I however question his hires/those entrusted to run the team ie GM etc. At some point a true/proper GM needs to be in charge, get the right group of coaches and let them do their job. No changing every 2-3 years.

What you don't want the 2003-2008 Tampa Bay Bucs? LoL  

EXACTLY!  This post is perfect.

This worse part is if we would have waited just ONE more season good coaches could become available after disappointing seasons like Tomlin? Harbaugh? who knows.. but I know who would. A COMPETENT GM!

[Bishop Hammer]

I still can't believe there are some people still defending Snyder? After 15yrs and some still can't see whats right in front of their faces?

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

I still can't believe there are some people still defending Snyder? After 15yrs and some still can't see whats right in front of their faces?

They love the Redskins and can't accept the truth. Like the parent who can't face the reality that their child is a putz.

[Stadium-Armory]

Meanwhile, the Rams are on QB #3 and he looks like the real deal. Lucky? Perhaps, but when was the last time we lucked out on an UDFA QB?

 

"Luck is the intersection between preparation and opportunity."

 

We lack the preparation part of that equation.

[TSO]

Has anyone looked at the front office structure of other clubs.  I'll limit this just to the division because I don't have time right now to go through all teams but this is what it looks like JUST from a scouting perspective (not including directors of player or pro personnel, ONLY scouts plus assistants)

 

Giants:  3 executive scouts; 6 area scouts; 1 Blesto scout; 2 pro scouts; 1 assist. dir. pro personnel; 1 assistant, pro personnel

 

Eagles: 1 sr. football advisor; 1 AD player personnel; 1 AD college scouting; 1 pro scout; 5 area scouts; 2 assistant area scouts; 1 college scouting coordinator; 1 pro personnel assistant

 

Cowboys: I didn't see the scouting department listed on their website.  But my guess is that it's slightly more robust than ours.

 

Redskins: 1 pro scout; 4 area scouts; 1 scout (non classified); 1 blesto scout

 

So yeah, we're slightly outmatched just in the division.  

 

Slightly? If these numbers are accurate, that's 14 scouts for the Giants, 13 for the Eagles and just 7 for us. We're at about half of the amount of scouts when compared to the division rivals we know about. 

 

Awful. Says everything that needs to be said. I don't buy the whole "Snyder is willing to spend" crap anymore. He's no different than any other owner in the league in terms of salary cap, he was just willing to give more ridiculous long-term contracts than others and earned that reputation falsely. MAYBE he is better about paying head coaches more than others and I guess we do use our entire salary cap every year. But that's it. Big deal.  

 

But when it comes to everything else; stadium experience, scouts, team facility, etc... he's either been behind the curve or just simply cheap. Period. How many times did we hear reports about how the players think our facilities are a joke compared to other NFL team facilities? How long did it take for a bubble to be built? How long before we renovated the gym, and it's still not considered up to par? How long did we hear excuses about the small video board at the stadium being incredibly difficult to upgrade because of complicated old school wiring? Then, suddenly it gets done. We have a winning season in 2012 where we get a home playoff game and the grass is in bad shape causing public scrutiny, and then he does something about it. Why aren't we ever ahead of these things? Why isn't one of the most profitable franchises in sports paving the way instead of lagging behind? 

 

Now we see that we're understaffed in the scouting department. We've already heard how the scouts aren't held accountable here and/or don't get listened to. They don't get promoted when they do show promise, and are allowed to leave to be successful elsewhere. Is that an unwillingness to pay them and not just about titles? I mean, honestly? Or is it simply because more scouts means, in turn, less input from Danny himself or the guys he "trusts"... the ones in his "inner circle"?  

 

Some have speculated that Haslett is still here because Danny would've had to take another hit on a coaches contract and didn't really want to. I never thought Danny was cheap on that front, but I have to wonder at this point.        

 

Again, if he's not cheap, then what is it? Does he just not care enough? The money is there to be put back into this franchise. We should have one of the largest and highest paid scouting departments in the league. Scouts should dream to work for the Skins. We should have some of the best team facilities, period. We should have one of the best stadium experiences in the league. We should have one of the best and properly maintained fields. We should be at the forefront here if the money that comes into this organization is any indication. But it's not that way. It's almost the complete opposite. So what is it?

 

He's either cheap and IS all about lining his pockets unlike what so many of his supporters (and I used to be one of them, big time) say or he's simply not into winning as much as people make it out. The whole "he's as big a fan as any of us" crap is just that, then. I don't see another way of explaining it anymore.  

[kleese]

This is a fabulous post.

My hope?

Luck. That we wind up with a special coach, player, exec, etc that is able to overcome the issues outlined in the OP. 2012 gave us a glimpse. We had a special QB and it could be argued that if his knee never got mangled by Ngata, that this thread may not exist right now. I'm hoping that if guys keep coming through that door that someday one of them will be good enough and strong enough to fix this.

[daveakl]

thesubmittedone,

the $ isn't there anymore.

[kleese]

They love the Redskins and can't accept the truth. Like the parent who can't face the reality that their child is a putz.

I don't defend Snyder so much as I like to point out that we were already spiraling out of control when he took over. We were horrid from 1993-1998 with terrible decisions being made on the executive level. Fifteen years is plenty enough time to fix those issues, but JKC made some devastatingly bad decisions before his death.

[daveakl]

I don't defend Snyder so much as I like to point out that we were already spiraling out of control when he took over. We were horrid from 1993-1998 with terrible decisions being made on the executive level. Fifteen years is plenty enough time to fix those issues, but JKC made some devastatingly bad decisions before his death.

We were so I'll equipped for the Era of free agency it isn't even funny.

[brandymac27]

If we're gonna blame anyone, we should be blaming us, the fans. Stop buying tickets, stop buying jerseys, stop going to games etc until this **** turns around. As long as we keep forking over money for a ****ty product, we're gonna keep getting a ****ty product. Yeah, Dan is a fan, but he's a business man first. Hit him where it hurts, and i guarantee you'll see a difference.

[Boss_Hogg]

Has anyone looked at the front office structure of other clubs. I'll limit this just to the division because I don't have time right now to go through all teams but this is what it looks like JUST from a scouting perspective (not including directors of player or pro personnel, ONLY scouts plus assistants)

Giants: 3 executive scouts; 6 area scouts; 1 Blesto scout; 2 pro scouts; 1 assist. dir. pro personnel; 1 assistant, pro personnel

Eagles: 1 sr. football advisor; 1 AD player personnel; 1 AD college scouting; 1 pro scout; 5 area scouts; 2 assistant area scouts; 1 college scouting coordinator; 1 pro personnel assistant

Cowboys: I didn't see the scouting department listed on their website. But my guess is that it's slightly more robust than ours.

Redskins: 1 pro scout; 4 area scouts; 1 scout (non classified); 1 blesto scout

So yeah, we're slightly outmatched just in the division.

More scouts and front office folk means less money for Danny.

[kleese]

If we're gonna blame anyone, we should be blaming us, the fans. Stop buying tickets, stop buying jerseys, stop going to games etc until this **** turns around. As long as we keep forking over money for a ****ty product, we're gonna keep getting a ****ty product. Yeah, Dan is a fan, but he's a business man first. Hit him where it hurts, and i guarantee you'll see a difference.

This assumes that Snyder KNOWS how to fix this but refuses to do so because he thinks it will cost him money to do so. I don't buy that.

[chipwhich]

This assumes that Snyder KNOWS how to fix this but refuses to do so because he thinks it will cost him money to do so. I don't buy that.

 

Narcissists don't care about money, they are Narcissists.  Rinse, repeat.

[Destino]

I'll believe that Dan Snyder is a big spender when I see stories about how this team has amongst the best practice facilities in the league.  The the best training equipment and staff.  The most advanced and maybe largest scouting departments in the league that is using advanced statistical analysis methods to determine exactly what players are the best fit. 

 

Until then the only thing he's investing in is marketing a big name coach so his fans to revolt and disappear on him.  The NFL has a hard cap and most teams make full use of it, his signing free agents doesn't make him a big spender. 

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

I don't defend Snyder so much as I like to point out that we were already spiraling out of control when he took over. We were horrid from 1993-1998 with terrible decisions being made on the executive level. Fifteen years is plenty enough time to fix those issues, but JKC made some devastatingly bad decisions before his death.

His worst decision was to put the team up for sale.

 

Snyder bought a division champion with three first round picks so he brought in Deion Sanders, Bruce Smith, Jeff George, et all. 

traded two of the firsts to move up and supposedly had to be talked out of trading the 2nd and 3rd overall pick to move up to #1. Fired the coach with three games left and when we still had a winning record, Brought in Marty who cut all of the garbage and won 8 of his last 11 with Tony Banks and a bunch of other scrubs. Dan fired him because he wasn't having fun.

 

And so, the sad farce has continued for many more years.

[chipwhich]

His worst decision was to put the team up for sale.

 

Snyder bought a division champion with three first round picks so he brought in Deion Sanders, Bruce Smith, Jeff George, et all. 

traded two of the firsts to move up and supposedly had to be talked out of trading the 2nd and 3rd overall pick to move up to #1. Fired the coach with three games left and when we still had a winning record, Brought in Marty who cut all of the garbage and won 8 of his last 11 with Tony Banks and a bunch of other scrubs. Dan fired him because he wasn't having fun.

 

And so, the sad farce has continued for many more years.

 

He didn't put the team up for sale.  Also Snyder didn't have to be talked out of trading to number 1.

[kleese]

His worst decision was to put the team up for sale.

Snyder bought a division champion with three first round picks so he brought in Deion Sanders, Bruce Smith, Jeff George, et all.

traded two of the firsts to move up and supposedly had to be talked out of trading the 2nd and 3rd overall pick to move up to #1. Fired the coach with three games left and when we still had a winning record, Brought in Marty who cut all of the garbage and won 8 of his last 11 with Tony Banks and a bunch of other scrubs. Dan fired him because he wasn't having fun.

And so, the sad farce has continued for many more years.

He bought the team after the 1998 season... We won the division his first year as owner. Norv and Casserly both should have been fired after 98, but the sale went though too late and Snyder had to roll with at least Norv because it was too late to change.

His moves in 2000 worked; most of our money was spent on defense and we vastly

Improved... I believe we went from 28th to 4th. Contrary to popular opinion, Deion was good for us that year as was Bruce Smith. Defense was much better. But Norv was Norv and Brad Johnson had an awful season and we fell apart.

I always felt Marty's 2001 turnaround was insanely overrated by fans, but no doubt that was an awkward and strange break up and Marty was probably on his way to stabilizing the organization. To me, that was Snyder's first real head scratcher. Having said that, I was all for giving Spurrier a chance.

[SkinsFTW]

 At some point a true/proper GM needs to be in charge, get the right group of coaches and let them do their job. No changing every 2-3 years.

 

10+ years ago this is what we were saying here on ES, then in 2006, then in 2008, 2009, 2011, 2013, now, and forever.

[Going Commando]

Biggest thing Snyder needs to do is pick a plan and ****ing stick to it for YEARS. I repeat, YEARS. If Ted Leonsis can make it work with Ernie Grunfeld despite five years of bottom-dwelling teams and a total loss of confidence within the fan base, there are no excuses for Snyder mowing down coaches and front office people like he has.

I don't really care whether or not Bruce Allen and Jay Gruden are geniuses at what they do. I'm not sure you need to be to have success if your ownership is good and creates a stable organization around you. But I am 100% sure constantly shuffling your coaches leads to uninterrupted failure.

God, if the Bengals can turn it around like they have, with Marvin Lewis, who coached teams that sucked for almost ten years before they got good, then anybody can.

Snyder is incompetent. Something about him and the culture he creates for the organization make success impossible. He can't keep coaches even if he wanted to. Gibbs burned out and quit. Zorn and Shanahan essentially forced their firings having their tenures devolve into painful circuses by the end. It's Snyder.

[kleese]

Biggest thing Snyder needs to do is pick a plan and ****ing stick to it for YEARS. I repeat, YEARS. If Ted Leonsis can make it work with Ernie Grunfeld despite five years of bottom-dwelling teams and a total loss of confidence within the fan base, there are no excuses for Snyder mowing down coaches and front office people like he has.

I don't really care whether or not Bruce Allen and Jay Gruden are geniuses at what they do. I'm not sure you need to be to have success if your ownership is good and creates a stable organization around you. But I am 100% sure constantly shuffling your coaches leads to uninterrupted failure.

God, if the Bengals can turn it around like they have, with Marvin Lewis, who coached teams that sucked for almost ten years before they got good, then anybody can.

Snyder is incompetent. Something about him and the culture he creates for the organization make success impossible. He can't keep coaches even if he wanted to. Gibbs burned out and quit. Zorn and Shanahan essentially forced their firings having their tenures devolve into painful circuses by the end. It's Snyder.

I think most rational people realize that Snyder is the ultimate blame holder here--- he is the ONLY one that presided over it all, AND he holds the highest office therefore he ultimately shoulders the most blame and would be success if we ever had any.

That isn't in doubt. Where the debate seems to rage is in WHY he has failed and whether or not there is anything he can do about it.

I get labeled as a bit of an apologist I believe because I don't think he is quite as evil as others do. I do believe he cares deeply about the franchise and wants to win. And I think HE THINKS he's changed over the years in an effort to be the owner fans want him to be. He just never does it very smoothly and perhaps continues to hire the wrong people.

I just don't like to waste my breath with the "we will never win with Snyder stuff" because even if it's true he will likely be here as long if not longer than I will so I don't see the point in that.

People say we need to "send him a message" so he does what we want him to do. But what exactly is that? Send him a message so he will fire Allen? And hire a "real" personnel guy? I'm sure Snyder thinks Allen IS a real personnel guy. And even if he listened to the fans who would hire the "real" personnel guy? Would Snyder hire a guy to hire the guy? It's just a viscous cycle. So instead I choose to just hope the guys he does have in place are given time to try to figure it out. I'm not saying Allen/Gruden is Beathard/Gibbs, heck maybe they aren't Cass/Norv, but I wiped the slate clean for them this year. Through six games it isn't very inspiring, but they've also caught some tough breaks. I just watch and hope that maybe one of these guys will be able to figure it out. I do believe that if we get things moving in the right direction that Snyder will not go out of his way to mess it up. I think he's pretty desperate for a winner, so if he sees one forming he's much more likely now than 12 years ago to just let it ride.

[TSO]

thesubmittedone,

the $ isn't there anymore.

 

lol, what? I'm going to assume you meant something else than what I'm taking from it... but, if not, here ya go:

 

The World's 50 Most Valuable Sports Teams 2013

#8 Washington Redskins

Value: $1.6 billion

Owner: Daniel Snyder 

The team traded three first-round draft picks and a second-round choice to the Rams last year in order to select Robert Griffin III (above) with the second overall pick in the 2012 draft. Griffin delivered by leading the 'Skins to their first division title since 1999. His jersey set a single season record for most sales on NFLShop.com.

 

 

By the way, this isn't a list for most valuable football teams. This is a list for MOST VALUABLE SPORTS TEAMS IN THE WORLD. PERIOD. We're at #8 behind such massive profit-absorbing black holes like the Yankees, Real Madrid and the Dallas Cowboys.

 

And, yet, where do we rank in comparison when it comes to the environment this organization puts its staff and fans in?

 

There can be no doubt, he is cheap. Furthermore, it seems like he may be one of the least respected owners in the league by the top brass in the league and the media can't stand him. The negativity he has wrought on this once very proud franchise is incredible, really. Whether it's pissing off the rest of the league with the type of contracts he's handed out in Free Agency in the past to the point where they were willing to show their collusion to punish the organization, or the ridiculous feuds he's had with local media and the horrible mismanagement of everything PR-related, or how pretty much every single coach has left here cursing him outside of Gibbs (who arguably ran out of here completely unexpectedly, and while people say he was just burnt out and it was because of Sean Taylor, he seems perfectly fine until now handling his racing company)... I mean, enough is enough.

 

How is there still anyone defending him left? People who know me here have known me to be one of the biggest defenders of Snyder and the organization in general in the past. But at some point it turns into delusion. Come on.      

 

But, you know what? Forget all that there. Let me be wrong about all that. Snyder is learning and he's good now and all the meanies are just out to get him. 

 

I still cannot, for the life of me, explain how we have the least amount of scouts on the payroll in the division. How? Somebody? Why are we still talking about anything else? 

 

HIRE THE BEST SCOUTS AND PAY THEM THE BEST. CREATE A SYSTEM OF ACCOUNTABILITY WHERE THE BEST ONES GET PROMOTED AND NOT JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE LEFT. THEIR WORD IS HIGHEST WHEN IT COMES TO PERSONNEL, NOT THE COACHES, NOT ANYONE ELSE. IF YOU HAVE A GM WHO IS ALSO A GREAT SCOUT, HE CAN HAVE FINAL SAY. IF NOT, HE SHOULDN'T. COMMON SENSE MANAGEMENT BASED ON EXPERTISE. 

 

I was sick to my stomach this offseason when I kept getting the sense from Gruden and Allen that the personnel was going to be a "Redskin decision", which implied some stupid consensus. That's what we've always have had and it's ALWAYS failed us. The scouts are the guys who should be in charge of these things, period. Allen almost promised us that after firing Shanahan, implying Brown would be running the draft and Campbell Free Agency. But then we kept hearing about everyone together coming to a decision. Haslett pushed for Orakpo and got him over the scouts wishes, for example.   

 

Damnit, why?     

 

Why is this hard? Why are we talking about anything else? After Isfihan posted those numbers for us there, why are we focused on anything else? How could the 8th most profitable sports franchise in the world have an under-staffed scouting department when the team has an obvious lack of elite talent being found consistently? Are you kidding me?    

[TSO]

People say we need to "send him a message" so he does what we want him to do. But what exactly is that? Send him a message so he will fire Allen? And hire a "real" personnel guy? I'm sure Snyder thinks Allen IS a real personnel guy. And even if he listened to the fans who would hire the "real" personnel guy?

 

This is exactly the issue, kleese. This is what the OP, zoony and others are mentioning when talking about sound management. How does Snyder consider Allen a "real personnel guy" when virtually everyone in the league viewed him before as more of a contract guru? Furthermore, if Allen is to be considered a personnel guy, then his most recent track record in Tampa was average to poor. 

 

So, how is it possible to accept that for Snyder to allow Allen a say in personnel? Either he's completely ignorant in how to properly hire sound management, or he's hiring based on something else as others have speculated here. 

 

Allen should be left to handle contracts and oversee football operations in general. He shouldn't be part of personnel decisions. We should have a clear structure for our scouting department in place, with the guys who are most accurate with their assessments getting promotions and raises. The head of that department should have final word on personnel. He should have the right to go against the coaches wishes and pick who they think will be the best fit. Allen, in fact, implied just that at first but then everything that came out later seemed to contradict that.

 

Therein lies the problem. For example, Haslett overruling the scouts and Allen siding with him over Orakpo getting franchised doesn't happen if we have sound management. Who knows what else went on where the coaches won out over the scouts, and we find out later the scouts were spot on. If Snyder can't understand these simple, basic principles for sound management (basically, let the right guys handle their responsibilities in their respective fields of expertise and create an environment which rewards success), then why are we expecting him to do better? He will always fail us. Always. 

 

It should be real simple RIGHT NOW for Snyder. Allen is not a personnel guy, or at least not a great one. Never has been. Therefore, he should not have final say over personnel. If that means he shouldn't have the GM title, fine. Whatever. Make him President like some have said. The only time he can overrule the scouts is if a player they prioritize will cost too much in Free Agency. The scouting department should have final say on personnel. They should be the best assembled group of scouts possible, with the money spent on them consistent with how profitable the organization is overall (tons of money coming in? Tons of money spent on the department). The coaches coach. They are required to keep constant communication with scouts as to what type of player they want for their schemes, but nothing more. 

 

This is essentially what we were sort of promised by Allen in that presser immediately after firing Mike. But then the more they talked about, the more it seemed like a "boys club" all over again where everyone had equal say. It makes no sense. Should the scouts have equal say in what type of schemes the coaches run and what type of plays they call?                     

[RG3Hunna]

Has nothing to do with snyder it all starts with the "NFL DRAFT". The top teams draft well and the teams who suck (Our Washington Redskins) don't draft well.

 

An example of us not drafting well is the 2011 NFL Draft in the 1st we trade down and get Kerrigan instead of standing pat and getting JJ Watt.

 

in the 2nd round we get Jarvis Jenkins when we could have got (Brooks Reed, Kyle Rudolph, Orlando Franklin, Shane Vareen, Stevan Ridley,Torrey Smith, Randall Cobb, Demarco Murray)

 

in the 5th round we drafted DeJuan Gomes in the 5th while the Seattle Seahawks drafted Richard Sherman. In the 6th round of the 2011 draft we selected Evan Royster and Aldrick Robinson while the Eagles selected Jason Kelce (arguably the best center in football)

 

Good teams are very good at the draft and bad teams (us) are terrible at the draft, until we get good at the draft we'll ALWAYS be bad. It has nothing to do with Daniel Snyder, it has everything to do with the scouting department, they should ALWAYS be priority #1 and we should ALWAYS put all our finances in that department. 

[skinsnut1823]

I don't doubt Dan's passion for wanting a winning football team and spending to do it. I however question his hires/those entrusted to run the team ie GM etc. At some point a true/proper GM needs to be in charge, get the right group of coaches and let them do their job. No changing every 2-3 years.

It's a fair viewpoint but my issue is how long do you wade through the mediocrity before you make a change? Is it 4,5,6 years? If you keep changing coaches and Qb's you keep starting over and can't properly gauge where the blames falls.

[chipwhich]

It's a fair viewpoint but my issue is how long do you wade through the mediocrity before you make a change? Is it 4,5,6 years? If you keep changing coaches and Qb's you keep starting over and can't properly gauge where the blames falls.

 

Actually you can.  We have all the time we need to gauge.  It's our personnel.  We have bad players.  We hired a coach who took every team he coached to the playoffs, we hired the most coveted coach in college sports, we hired a HOF coach, we hired a Super Bowl winning coach, we hired a no name coach, and we hired an up and coming offensive coordinator.

 

First 6 games:

Gruden 1-5

Shotty 1-5

Spurrier 2-4

Gibbs II 2-4

Zorn 4-2

Shanny 3-3

 

It's not because we changed coaches, Gibbs spent like a drunken sailor on free agents and still only won 5 games in his 3rd year of his return.

 

We don't have a very good roster and we only focus on players that sell jerseys, we ignore the offensive and defensive lines.