Fergasun Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 All, This hit close to home since I live in the vicinity and have co-workers who had children up at University of California, Santa Barbara. I was surprised there was no thread to discuss the shooting, and there was no breaking news thread (suppose that's what happens to news that occurs after midnight on Memorial Day). Over the past couple of days I made it through 80% of this person's manifesto. I have no idea how to uncover the dark, secret thoughts of a crazed delusional person who harbors such a strong resement to society in general and I even doubt some of the manifesto itself. I have a feeling if he did manage to have the intimate relationship with women or a woman that he wants he would have inevitably done serious harm to them out of the inevitable break-up or disconnection that would occur. It is scary to think that my family frequented some of the places he mentions in his manifesto. Let's not forget these names and their families: Cheng Yuan "James" Hong, George Chen, Weihan "David" Wang, Katherine Cooper, Veronika Weiss and Christopher Michael-Martinez. I have yet to hear that I have an indirect or direct relationship to any of the victims or their families; but who knows if you recognize people from church, school, stores, etc. Make sure you love and hug your children tightly, because life can be so random and cruel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 I don't even know what to say at this point that hasn't been said in many similar treads in the past. Sigh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 I'm actually going to go there. I'm going to set this thread up be hijacked and I'm not posting to it again. Maybe I'll post in a few weeks when it happens again. I haven't paid attention to Michael Moore in years, but I thought he nailed it perfectly on this shooting. Nothing else needs to be said: With due respect to those who are asking me to comment on last night's tragic mass shooting at UCSB in Isla Vista, CA -- I no longer have anything to say about what is now part of normal American life. Everything I have to say about this, I said it 12 years ago: We are a people easily manipulated by fear which causes us to arm ourselves with a quarter BILLION guns in our homes that are often easily accessible to young people, burglars, the mentally ill and anyone who momentarily snaps. We are a nation founded in violence, grew our borders through violence, and allow men in power to use violence around the world to further our so-called American (corporate) "interests." The gun, not the eagle, is our true national symbol. While other countries have more violent pasts (Germany, Japan), more guns per capita in their homes (Canada [mostly hunting guns]), and the kids in most other countries watch the same violent movies and play the same violent video games that our kids play, no one even comes close to killing as many of its own citizens on a daily basis as we do -- and yet we don't seem to want to ask ourselves this simple question: "Why us? What is it about US?" Nearly all of our mass shootings are by angry or disturbed white males. None of them are committed by the majority gender, women. Hmmm, why is that? Even when 90% of the American public calls for stronger gun laws, Congress refuses -- and then we the people refuse to remove them from office. So the onus is on us, all of us. We won't pass the necessary laws, but more importantly we won't consider why this happens here all the time. When the NRA says, "Guns don't kill people -- people kill people," they've got it half-right. Except I would amend it to this: "Guns don't kill people -- Americans kill people." Enjoy the rest of your day, and rest assured this will all happen again very soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABQCOWBOY Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 It's really hard for me to put stock in these kinds of discussion simply because every Nation reports differently. Some countries don't report things the same way we do. Without a standard of reporting, it's hard to know if the data we receive is statistically factual. However, I do agree that it's a problem with no clear answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slateman Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 As usual, Michael Moore is full of nothingness. All nations are founded on violence. California passed the "necessary laws." The police were in the killer's home, questioning him. He almost gets there with the guns in Canada (which aren't mostly hunting, BTW). But that would de-rail his rant against guns as they have fewer restrictions than California did. Then he blames white males. Then blames corporate interests. As usual, he doesn't want to look in the mirror and blame himself or his values. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 We're becoming more and more numb to these things. We'll probably have a number of school shootings every semester before long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanboyOf91 Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Waiting periods still don't deter the deranged with spotless prior records. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 It's really hard for me to put stock in these kinds of discussion simply because every Nation reports differently. Some countries don't report things the same way we do. Without a standard of reporting, it's hard to know if the data we receive is statistically factual. However, I do agree that it's a problem with no clear answers. I think the first clear answer is what you already said. we have a problem. We must as a nation discuss it and try to formulate a solution. that means pro-gun / anti-gun, pro anything / anti anything.. we all need to recognize it is a shared problem, and come up with a shared solution. Unfortunately, many begin the discussion with absolutes and entrenchment to the extreme, which leads predictably nowhere. Look, pro-gun, anti-gun, no matter where you come down.. these rampages aren't discriminating. they aren't caring if it's women, men, bad guys, good guys, kids, the bullets slung in these mass murders don't care who they hit. my first step would be to suggest we must DO what we hear in these debates a lot, and that is police current laws, and perhaps tighten down on some of the registration process to try and weed out those like this latest guy who should clearly not have access to a firearm. I know there's pitfalls, and i know it's not perfect, but that is the point of a discussion.. do we or do we not agree that we have laws and processes that are perhaps not being fulfilled, or even skirted by some? we are highly proliferated by guns. Banning them won't ever work, and it's against the constitution to begin with. But getting a handle on the problem of these crazies going on rampages has to begin somewhere, and I'm thinking it is with law enforcement and the registration process. (this and somehow getting the media to turn down the fear cannons we are constantly bombarded with.. we're terrified of each other, of our government, of every foreigner,, about the only thing our 'news' hasn't got us defending ourselves against is Martians. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rictus58 Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 We're becoming more and more numb to these things. We'll probably have a number of school shootings every semester before long. Agreed. In the Baltimore Sun this weekend, news of the shooting was burried in the back. In the past, it would have been front page news. I predict in the near future there will be gambling pools to predict where the next mass shooting will be. Much like Celebrity Death Pools. I got dibs on Portland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 I think the first clear answer is what you already said. we have a problem. We must as a nation discuss it and try to formulate a solution. that means pro-gun / anti-gun, pro anything / anti anything.. we all need to recognize it is a shared problem, and come up with a shared solution. Unfortunately, many begin the discussion with absolutes and entrenchment to the extreme, which leads predictably nowhere. Look, pro-gun, anti-gun, no matter where you come down.. these rampages aren't discriminating. they aren't caring if it's women, men, bad guys, good guys, kids, the bullets slung in these mass murders don't care who they hit. my first step would be to suggest we must DO what we hear in these debates a lot, and that is police current laws, and perhaps tighten down on some of the registration process to try and weed out those like this latest guy who should clearly not have access to a firearm. I know there's pitfalls, and i know it's not perfect, but that is the point of a discussion.. do we or do we not agree that we have laws and processes that are perhaps not being fulfilled, or even skirted by some? we are highly proliferated by guns. Banning them won't ever work, and it's against the constitution to begin with. But getting a handle on the problem of these crazies going on rampages has to begin somewhere, and I'm thinking it is with law enforcement and the registration process. (this and somehow getting the media to turn down the fear cannons we are constantly bombarded with.. we're terrified of each other, of our government, of every foreigner,, about the only thing our 'news' hasn't got us defending ourselves against is Martians. ~Bang Bang, You and I disagree greatly regarding gun policies. And I was starting to notice some of your other posts I felt didn't really have substance and were not up to your usual standard. This is a well thought out, polite post that I can come close to agreeing with and more importantly respect. Comments like this makes me want the two sides come together, meet in the middle and figure something out. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 As usual, Michael Moore is full of nothingness. All nations are founded on violence. California passed the "necessary laws." The police were in the killer's home, questioning him. He almost gets there with the guns in Canada (which aren't mostly hunting, BTW). But that would de-rail his rant against guns as they have fewer restrictions than California did. Then he blames white males. Then blames corporate interests. As usual, he doesn't want to look in the mirror and blame himself or his values. He's pushing an agenda to sell his documentaries, that's really all there is to the guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elessar78 Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 As usual, Michael Moore is full of nothingness. All nations are founded on violence. California passed the "necessary laws." The police were in the killer's home, questioning him. He almost gets there with the guns in Canada (which aren't mostly hunting, BTW). But that would de-rail his rant against guns as they have fewer restrictions than California did. Then he blames white males. Then blames corporate interests. As usual, he doesn't want to look in the mirror and blame himself or his values. What do his values have to do with it. Why does it happen in this country more so than any other industrialized nation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Bang, You and I disagree greatly regarding gun policies. And I was starting to notice some of your other posts I felt didn't really have substance and were not up to your usual standard. This is a well thought out, polite post that I can come close to agreeing with and more importantly respect. Comments like this makes me want the two sides come together, meet in the middle and figure something out. Thank you. Sorry man! I've been rather disgusted with things as of late. I guess it shows To clarify,, I am not anti-gun. Not in the slightest. (I guess I am in that i don't think we should have massive military firepower,, but you're typical gun owner with handguns, rifles, shotguns,, no problem with it.) I'm anti- crazy person having easy access to guns. i am anti fear agenda whipping us into the most gun sales in history behind lies and propaganda. it adds to the problem to the profit of a few, and the anguish of many. As it is, gun violence as a whole is down, but crazies with a gun killing a lot of people at one time is a pretty disturbing and rapidly growing trend. This is why it bugs me so much when people like this guy end up with guns. (and so many of them get them legally. I don't know this guy's circumstance, but most of the recent mass shooters acquired their guns legally. It is VERY frustrating.) I think the system fails us, and I think the system is being perverted like so many other public trust / social contract systems,, large money interests are tipping the field. The driving force behind the NRA is nothing anymore but a fearmongering shill to fill the pockets of the manufacturers. Liken it to unions. Most union members are regular hard working people. But it's the political tug of those at the top that makes it distasteful to so many others. This clown laPierre spreads terror in his speeches, inciting sales. Is he really doing anything to promote firearm safety? I'm not talking about Bill down at the local chapter.. i mean those at the top who write the legislation that poisons smart gun sales. Who write the legislation that ties law enforcement's hands when it comes to tracing firearms and sales. (While "supporting" cops.. lol) It polarizes and paralyzes us. Meanwhile we're glutted with guns, and it makes it that much easier for the crazies. I liken it to the responsible gun owner must be the responsible parent with a toddler in the house .... you have among you people who can't handle the responsibility of a bread knife, or your medicine, or cleaning fluids, so put it out of their reach. It doesn't mean you can't have it and use it. Again, this i say is the system failing. Police know where their problems come from, so work to shut them down. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slateman Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 He's pushing an agenda to sell his documentaries, that's really all there is to the guy Bingo. More concerned with being relevant again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABQCOWBOY Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 I think the first clear answer is what you already said. we have a problem. We must as a nation discuss it and try to formulate a solution. that means pro-gun / anti-gun, pro anything / anti anything.. we all need to recognize it is a shared problem, and come up with a shared solution. Unfortunately, many begin the discussion with absolutes and entrenchment to the extreme, which leads predictably nowhere. Look, pro-gun, anti-gun, no matter where you come down.. these rampages aren't discriminating. they aren't caring if it's women, men, bad guys, good guys, kids, the bullets slung in these mass murders don't care who they hit. my first step would be to suggest we must DO what we hear in these debates a lot, and that is police current laws, and perhaps tighten down on some of the registration process to try and weed out those like this latest guy who should clearly not have access to a firearm. I know there's pitfalls, and i know it's not perfect, but that is the point of a discussion.. do we or do we not agree that we have laws and processes that are perhaps not being fulfilled, or even skirted by some? we are highly proliferated by guns. Banning them won't ever work, and it's against the constitution to begin with. But getting a handle on the problem of these crazies going on rampages has to begin somewhere, and I'm thinking it is with law enforcement and the registration process. (this and somehow getting the media to turn down the fear cannons we are constantly bombarded with.. we're terrified of each other, of our government, of every foreigner,, about the only thing our 'news' hasn't got us defending ourselves against is Martians. ~Bang On the Right, the fear is that things will be used against them by the Government in an attempt to secure the guns. If that fear could be removed, then I think you would see a lot of Gun Owners be much more compliant and much more willing to work with certain registration process that should be in place for the good of all. The problem from there perspective is that these things are used against the gun owner as an objective to remove guns. At least, that is the perception and I have to agree that it seems to work this way all to often. Both sides need to give in order to get and we all know that. That's really the problem in Washington on just about everything. Both sides have adopted a no prisoners, winner take all scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 I myself have run out of things to say. I'm honestly done with al the opinionated roundtable discussions across breakrooms and news outlets. I'm more interested in action, but that just gets everything tied up in conjecture/red tape. I know where I would start (mental health), but i don't know how you can ever completely stop even one life being taken as a result of incidents like this. Its such a tangled web of events that can lead to that. And while everyone bickers, it happens again, and again, and again, until you're just numb. I feel all I can do is bring stuff to people attention, if I spot disturbing trends in people (which seems to not happen in cases like this), try to help people who are in the early stages of stuff like that, and hope it doesn't happen to anyone I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 What do his values have to do with it. Why does it happen in this country more so than any other industrialized nation? maybe the loss of family structure? http://thefederalist.com/2014/05/28/can-we-discuss-divorces-contribution-to-school-shootings/ correlation or causation?.....I do know identifying and intervening is easiest by those most familiar. the me factor seems a theme for some reason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 I posted it in another thread, but I'll mention it again in here. I find it interesting that several of these recent mass shooters all were in therapy at one point, either ongoing or at one time Guess I'm wondering if that isn't part of the problem. Blame yourself, kill yourself. Blame others, I.e. parents, society, etc... Kill others Wonder if these shooters were all made to feel like victims in their therapy sessions. It would certainly explain some of the raging narcissism and delusions of grandeur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 I posted it in another thread, but I'll mention it again in here. I find it interesting that several of these recent mass shooters all were in therapy at one point, either ongoing or at one time Guess I'm wondering if that isn't part of the problem. Blame yourself, kill yourself. Blame others, I.e. parents, society, etc... Kill others Wonder if these shooters were all made to feel like victims in their therapy sessions. It would certainly explain some of the raging narcissism and delusions of grandeur I've always thought that that method works better when you have the reverse....people with low self esteem who blame themselves over every small misstep, and can't get past it. I'm not sure how you go about curing assholishness, entitlement, narcissism, whatever, unless you deal with it head on, no bull****. From what I've personally experienced (which is only what I've experienced, and may not be the case all the time), that seems to work more than telling them what they want to hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 I posted it in another thread, but I'll mention it again in here. I find it interesting that several of these recent mass shooters all were in therapy at one point, either ongoing or at one time Guess I'm wondering if that isn't part of the problem. Blame yourself, kill yourself. Blame others, I.e. parents, society, etc... Kill others Wonder if these shooters were all made to feel like victims in their therapy sessions. It would certainly explain some of the raging narcissism and delusions of grandeur It might also reflect that they needed therapy a lot more than other people. Correlation/causation is difficult in this area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 raging narcissism and delusions of grandeur I wouldn't point the finger at therapy ... it may be just a symptom of being sufficiently mentally ill that those around you have put you there. A major issue seems to be that professional therapists are either unwilling or incapable of identifying the difference between someone who needs help and someone who needs incarceration while they are getting help. But aside from Michael Moore being a jackass, he has a point in that there seems to be something unique in the American psyche that all the other factors we can blame don't lead to mass shootings as often in other countries.. And not just from loser males who have shown clear signs of mental illness. Workplace shootings as a response to being fired are much more common here too. The narcissism of being "disrespected" demanding an angry or even violent response seems much more prevalent in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss_Hogg Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Anyone read his 141 page manifesto? That dude had serious mental issues. However he knew what he was doing by planning the attack, buying the guns, making the videos, etc. I;ve also watched all of his YouTube videos, he talked like Patrick Bateman from American Psycho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ixcuincle Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 Nice to see the media is giving the jabroni less and less attention. Last few days they had him plastered all over the place with his "manifesto". Why are you giving him attention? Why are you encouraging this type of behavior? The media does this for all mass shooters and it's pathetic. It doesn't discourage anyone from doing this. They just put shooters up on this pedestal and they shouldn't get that much attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCSaints_fan Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 I was a bit surprised there was no thread in ES, but then I thought "Why give the sack of **** the attention", and in a way, was then kind of glad there wasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcl05 Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 The onion nailed it: http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this,36131/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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