One Fans Look to the Future:Robert Griffin

[darrelgreenie]

Another example of 11 personnel spread w/ the TE split wide in an iso

Grudes/Bengals 4 WR personnel

[darrelgreenie]

The route concept from the formation above wasn't complicated:

 

From top to bottom:

 

WR1-12 yard sideline comeback

 

WR2-Seam/Go route

 

WR3*-9 yard hitch

 

TE(Iso)-Go/Vertical

[Riggo'sRangers]

There is no question RGIII has the ability, and he showed it his rookie year.

 

The question is, can he fully recover from his injury, he obviously wasn't the same player last year.

 

Goodness, you were not insulting or derogatory towards Robert.  This is a nice 1st step.  IF you are a Skins fan (and the jury is still deliberating,) enjoy and occasionally post almost non-negative posts such as this. You were correct here.  Nice.  I will still be watching, to figure out where you stand, but agreed; he was not the same, nor was the team for a wide variety of reasons-not just Robert.  HTTR  

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

There is no question RGIII has the ability, and he showed it his rookie year.

The question is, can he fully recover from his injury, he obviously wasn't the same player last year.

Good to see you finally got over RG3's dad taking your girl back in high school

Progress man. Progress

[Mr. Sinister]

Good to see you finally got over RG3's dad taking your girl back in high school

Progress man. Progress

 

Not buying it. I think his account was hacked or something 

[darrelgreenie]

Aren't there enough threads where those other comments about Griffin, his dad or whatever else non- X's and O's related fit?

I would really like and appreciate if this thread focus on comments/discussion on the Grudes offense with Dalton or how Griffin and the current personnel fit or mesh with those concepts.

Any comments or thoughts about that Griffin and this offense going forward?

[darrelgreenie]

11 personnel with TE in line making 'trips' and a iso WR opposite

This is a more traditional deployment of 11 personnel in a spread formation

 

From top to bottom:

 

WR1(X)-Slant

TE-Flare out drag towards sideline

WR2-clearing route/Go stalk block

WR3-"

RB* swing out of the backfield

 

Quick pass to RB

[98ORAKPO98]

RGIII To Begin Life Minus The Brace On Monday

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2014/04/04/rgiii-to-begin-life-minus-the-brace-on-monday/

[HTTRDynasty]

What I really like about the Bengals offense last year is that they had the 3rd least QB sacks allowed and led the league in fewest QB hits.  Sure, part of that speaks to the fact that they had a competent O-line all year.  But I think a larger part of it is the fact that Dalton gets the ball out so quickly and Gruden is always calling plays that keeps the defense on their toes, which makes a D-coordinator think twice about the blitzes he sends.

 

I think this really plays to RGIII's strengths, while also covering our O-line's weakness, which is a lack of solid pass protection.

 

Edit: Link

[darrelgreenie]

 

Here's ^^ another example of 11 3 WR/1 TE/1 RB personnel this time in a bunch set.

 

Routes on the rightside (playside) routes:  TE flare out the ball gets thrown to AJ on a corner route:

 

 

 

[darrelgreenie]

I know its been covered (over-covered) already but felt I had to include it somewhere in this thread...

 

 

 

"He looked 100% healthy," Shea told USA TODAY Sports Friday. "I didn't let up on him and, boy, he kept coming — and he reminded me of the old Robert Griffin that I knew coming out of Baylor for those eight-10 weeks we worked together in 2012.

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/redskins/2014/04/11/qb-tutor-rg3-looks-100-percent-healthy/7613487/

[darrelgreenie]

empty concept w/ 11 personnel Corner route (a popular route in Grudes O) to the (L) slot WR
 

[Ghost of]

DG,

 

Thanks for continuing to upload these images.  It's helpful to see some of the concepts we might expect to see this fall on Sunday.  I think you may have answered it before, but what are your expectations after seeing how our FA period has gone, with at least the potential draft in the top few picks we have, and the news about Griff's mechanical improvements and return to health?

 

I think with our passing weapons, I would like to see Alfred Morris' role slightly reduced (or at least fewer carries to reduce wear, maybe making a playoff push you up those carries), and get Griff's passing yardage output past 4,000 to maybe 4,3-4,400.  TDs can vary, so I'm not so worried about that as I would be about red zone conversion rates and third down percentage.  

 

I don't see how this team won't score points.  I'm even slightly optimistic about the defense.  Not that it will be great, but I have seen this defense make stops and plays that MIGHT win games if we can get some point production at the right time (we need not set NFL records.  

[nemocystem]

love the contributions Greenie...some things i want to add.

 

firstly...some of these route concepts, especially the ones like the post-corner with no safety help over the top, are designed specifically to take advantage of their size at WR.  we have to remember that Cincy had Sanu, Green, & Gresham.  i imagine, in a similar situation in the red zone (to the pic just above) that we would probably instead see a route combination where instead of a post-corner, it becomes a corner-post or seam for the slot man, & the wide man either runs a slant, or a drag underneath the coverage to force the LB to make a decision (with a RB release to the right).  the key in these sort of plays will be early recognition from Griff, & throwing the ball early with touch (an area Dalton excelled at), rather than later.  the other plus here is that DJax, Roberts, & Garcon are all interchangable at the slot/WR positions & can make the route combos much more nuanced to utilize DJax's speed from there, or Garcon's fearlessness.

 

also, while i worry about AlMo's pass-catching/route-running, i take comfort in knowing that he operated from a Spread concept at FAU.  i have all the confidence that he can excel in single backfield, spread formations.  i just want him to improve in the pass-blocking, & pass-catching areas.

 

i imagine we'll see a lot more crossing routes, & hitch routes to take advantage of the speed, & quickness on display.  this is all well & good, & i think that the weapons will provide a plethora of options.  what i want to see though, is more creativity...taking advantage of what the defense is trying to "give" us.  i want to see fluid adjustments being made, & a lot of moving the guys around.  i think we'll be misusing our weapons if we don't constantly move our guys around.

 

that said...the biggest thing i want to see is Griffin being empowered with audibility (if i may create such a word).  we have to know that defenses are going to try really hard to disguise, & change their looks.  their main goals will be a) disrupt our timing, & try to take away our first desired option.  we have to 1) have a QB capable of seeing the opportunities for better plays, & 2) have system that allows us to make those changes at the LOS.

 

if a safety is playing over the top to help with DJax wide, & the DB is giving a cushion...bubble screen should be on everyone's mind.  if they try to fill the box to stop the run, & press outside...you have to take the occasional shot deep to beat the man coverage & keep them honest. 

 

i feel that we will see this from Gruden's offense way more often than Kyle's, & i'm excited at the implications.  i also am well aware that this will likely take some time for everyone to get on the same page, & we could well see some mistakes early on.  i believe that III is smart enough to call the right plays at the LOS, & that we have the horses to take advantage of mismatches that we could create by simply moving guys around. 

 

the biggest thing though is if the D spreads itself thin, & puts safeties over the top i wanna see a run...ALLTHETIME!!!  i want to make the defense pay for trying to "force" us into where they want us to be.  if they dare us to run...shove it down their throats.  if they dare us to beat them in man coverage, we have to make them pay.  heck...i want to see designed QB delays in those situations, just so that the defense is constantly reminded that if they want to play man......they better be thinking about Griffin as well. 

 

the big positive of having a coach like Gruden who seems to be empowering to his QB in the offense (a huge 180 from our previous situation), is that i fully expect us to utilize our weapons in non-conventional ways that all taylor to the skills that our QB excels at. 

 

with Dalton you saw more quick trigger route-combos, & they steered away from deep routes, & especially deep-middle, & intermediate routes that take time to develop.  you can incorporate those plays with RGIII because he excels at deep ball accuracy (when healthy), can extend plays with his feet, & is a threat to run.  i mean...imagine the first time we spread out & get man coverage with safety help, & we just run all go's or verticals.  just count to 3, if nobody is breaking free....run.  there should be plenty of room...just make sure to get down.

[darrelgreenie]

....what are your expectations after seeing how our FA period has gone.....

I think with our passing weapons, I would like to see Alfred Morris' role slightly reduced (or at least fewer carries to reduce wear, maybe making a playoff push you up those carries), and get Griff's passing yardage output past 4,000 to maybe 4,3-4,400. TDs can vary, so I'm not so worried about that as I would be about red zone conversion rates and third down percentage.

My expectations are high. At least for Griffin and the offense. If Grudes passing game is anything like it was the Cinci I think Griffin is gonna have a lot of fun. From listening/reading about Jay and watching a lot of the Bengals offense I think/expect an offense that ( A ) gets receivers open ( B )  get the ball out quick ( C ) molds the offense around his QB/is both creative and flexible. (I remember reading articles about how Jay looked at Dalton's TCU offense in designing the Bengals offense. I would love to see more of Baylor's concepts)

As far as numbers go I think Griff will be in the 3,800 ball park ~25 TDs/ 12 or fewer INTs.

But, I wouldn't be surprised if Griffin puts up huge numbers. With Jay viewing the offense through the eyes of QB and Griffin being one of the most gifted QBs in the league I could easily see Jay falling in love with Griffin as a passer and really openeing the passing game up.

 

re:draft

I know many people think the FO is/should/will be out of the WR business come draft time. But I still could see them draft a WR, especially one with a different physical skillset then the ones we already have.

[Mr. Sinister]

One of the many things I've been screaming about in regards to this team on offense (for years) is the fact that audibles either aren't allowed or flat out don't exist in the offense.

 

These DC's and defensive players are smart. A lot of year in/year out successful offenses give their QB's the freedom at the los to audible, or to go to the line with multiple plays based on the defensive look.

 

Its something that I think Griff is way more than capable of doing (despite what moron mediots and fans... Many of whom are our own). I think offseason workouts, TC/preseaso will go a long way in determining what happens, but I fully expect Gruden to say, come September, "Alright kid, the keys are on the table, go and take her for a spin".

[nemocystem]

re:draft

I know many people think the FO is/should/will be out of the WR business come draft time. But I still could see them draft a WR, especially one with a different physical skillset then the ones we already have.

I still believe if Kelvin Benjamin is there at 34, he won't be at 35.

[darrelgreenie]

Great post. I'm gonna break down my reply into sections because you covered a lot of ground.

love the contributions Greenie...some things i want to add.

 

firstly...some of these route concepts, especially the ones like the post-corner with no safety help over the top, are designed specifically to take advantage of their size at WR.  we have to remember that Cincy had Sanu, Green, & Gresham.

I get your overall sentiment I think. The passing route concepts and combination won't be exactly the same here as they were with the Bengals because of personnel. I agree to an extent.

Jay will mold the offense around Griffin and around the personnel. But some of the concepts and plays are all ready in place within the offense. I am sure there will be carry over from the Kyle's offense and carry over from the Bengal's offense because they are from the same base west coast offense tree.

 

i imagine, in a similar situation in the red zone (to the pic just above) that we would probably instead see a route combination where instead of a post-corner, it becomes a corner-post or seam for the slot man, & the wide man either runs a slant, or a drag underneath the coverage to force the LB to make a decision (with a RB release to the right).....

But, specifically to the plays/route combination possibilities..I think you are refering to the corner route from the slot WR #82 from the empty set Iirc that route was a just a corner route not a post corner; a post-corner is a semi-double move route where the receiver runs a post route then breaks to the corner route.

The corner route, like most routes, doesn't require size as much as it requires separation.

 

I am not sure we'll see more seam routes, seam routes are closer to being 'throws to body position' like a backshoulder or jump ball throw where a bigger target is better. As you can see on the play above Gresham is actually running a seam route opposite of #82.

 

i imagine we'll see a lot more crossing routes, & hitch routes to take advantage of the speed, & quickness on display. this is all well & good, & i think that the weapons will provide a plethora of options. what i want to see though, is more creativity...taking advantage of what the defense is trying to "give" us. i want to see fluid adjustments being made, & a lot of moving the guys around. i think we'll be misusing our weapons if we don't constantly move our guys around.

I hope to see more use of spread formations as part of the base offense. Right now we are stronger/deeper at WR then the Bengals were but thinner at TE. In my mind this equates to more 3+ WRs and fewer 2+TEs sets. Hopefully the quick passing emphasis carries over from the Bengals offense which suggest to me more spread quick passing concepts and routes i.e. slants, drags, hitches, stick, the whole array of RB routes china, texas, etc as opposed to double move routes post-corner/corner-post.

I'm meh when it comes to moving receivers around a lot. There are pros and cons but I think there is just as much if not more deception and creativity to be gained by not moving receivers around BUT having them run all of the different routes from the same positions therefore giving away no tendencies. The Colts for example lined up in virtually the same formations the receivers almost never switched sides. But you never knew which routes to exepct because there were no "tells" based on formation or where guys lined up.

 

also, while i worry about AlMo's pass-catching/route-running, i take comfort in knowing that he operated from a Spread concept at FAU.  i have all the confidence that he can excel in single backfield, spread formations.  i just want him to improve in the pass-blocking, & pass-catching areas.

 

I think Morris gets unfairly pigeon-holed as a 'non-pass catching' back. I think Morris will have a career year in catches which still might only end up being around 20-30. But I think this offense is gonna pass to the RB a lot more then Kyles and expect Helu's role in the offense to increase.

 

[FrFan]

There is no question RGIII has the ability, and he showed it his rookie year.

 

The question is, can he fully recover from his injury, he obviously wasn't the same player last year.

"Chris Cooley, who played with Griffin in 2012 and now works as one of the team’s radio commentators, said on ESPN 980 that he worked out with Griffin recently and was amazed by what he saw.

“It’s unbelievable,” Cooley said. “He’s another person right now. I was like, ‘you’re running unbelievably well.’ It was silly to watch. . . . When you watch him run, you’re like ‘You’re a freak. You’re seriously a freak.’”

 

Sounds really good , can't wait to see him lit up the NFC East with DeSean & Jordan.

[nemocystem]

as far as the corner route, i assumed post-corner because of the need for inside-leverage.  also it seems like Sanu really enforced that outside lean to put himself in position for a jump-ball or an overthrow to the corner flag where Sanu is the only one who can get it.  also taking into account the end zone distance, & lack of space to create any real separation.  the seam from Gresham is designed to expose their option, meaning that if they were in a cover 2 in the red-zone, no doubt the first read would have been to hit Gresham.  since the coverage was man, you have to look at Sanu with 1v1 coverage on a smaller defender with inside leverage over the top.

 

i think, in the same situation...a corner route from the slot with similar positioning is unrealistic because there isn't enough room to throw someone open, & our guys aren't adept at grabbing 50/50 balls.

 

the reason i think we'll see more inside seams from the little guys is because they can create more separation, & against cover-2 it really puts their safeties in a bind.  usually the idea is to hit seams with bigger men & throw to a back-shoulder or jump-ball.  however, if you can anticipate the coverage & throw to an area, then you can hit those routes for potentially bigger gains because of the separation that can be gained without safety help.

 

i do think hitches, & crosses will be a staple...as will WR screens.  i also would like to see more Spread concepts as having all that speed on the field at the same time will only help create panic in the defensive backfield.

 

as far as AlMo...i think he'll be fine....what i'm saying is that he will certainly need to do some work to improve in that area, & be certain that he's adept at those things before he's called upon to do so.  there are some things like stiffness when tracking the ball, not always looking the ball into his body, & simply just not doing it enough in the previous 2 years that make me somewhat uneasy at the thought of having to go through some of those growing pains before becoming proficient at it.  i REALLY want to see more HB screens too.

 

all in all...i think we're in agreement, i was just pointing out that there will be nuanced differences (as there would be with any new set of personnel), mainly due to the fact that Cinci really had size to spare, whereas we lack size, but are now Fortune 500 speed merchants.

 

i like a lot of what i see from Grudes, but i have also voiced some concerns.  for better or worse, he's our problem now, so i'm down to hoping that most of what i saw was some Andy Dalton, a little lack of real WR threats outside of Green, & Gresham's inconsistency.  oh, & a lack of a run game which seems to stem more from their OL being more adept at pass blocking than run blocking. 

[darrelgreenie]

as far as the corner route, i assumed post-corner because of the need for inside-leverage.  also it seems like Sanu really enforced that outside lean to put himself in position for a jump-ball or an overthrow to the corner flag where Sanu is the only one who can get it.  also taking into account the end zone distance, & lack of space to create any real separation....i think, in the same situation...a corner route from the slot with similar positioning is unrealistic because there isn't enough room to throw someone open, & our guys aren't adept at grabbing 50/50 balls.

I am little confused, the route Marvin Jones ran (#82) was a corner route @ 0:12s

there is no need for assumption on that point. And again, I don't agree it requires a bigger receiver to run a corner route all it requires (like most routes) is separation.

Afterall if the Bengals wanted to a bigger receiver to run that route almost any other receiver on their roster is bigger then Jones. And a double move like a post-corner or corner-post doesn't fit the timing of a quick rhythm throw.

 

Either way the clip shows some possibilities for our passing game:

We can agree to disagree on this one. 

 

the reason i think we'll see more inside seams from the little guys is because they can create more separation, & against cover-2 it really puts their safeties in a bind.  usually the idea is to hit seams with bigger men & throw to a back-shoulder or jump-ball.....

I guess we can agree to disagree on this one too. Throwing to shorter receivers on the appears counter to your last point. There actually is a benefit of throwing to bigger receivers on seam routes because they provide a bigger target in a limited passing window. I can't see our personnel here vs the Bengals personnel equating to throwing more seam passes.

 

i do think hitches, & crosses will be a staple...as will WR screens.  i also would like to see more Spread concepts as having all that speed on the field at the same time will only help create panic in the defensive backfield.

I agree 100% on this one. More spread formations/concepts appears likely given our personnel. And if spread formations become a bigger part of our base offense we could really do some damage running the ball because of Griffin's threat as a runner.  11 personnel from a spread formation virtually guarntees a 6 man box IF the defense is playing honest and respecting the passing game.

 

In the diagram above the defense is matching up with the receivers in a man look with a single post safety leaving 6 in the box. Even if Griffin wasn't a run threat we win the numbers game right there.

Our 5 OL + Griffin + Almo=7 vs their DL 4 + 2 LBs=6. No factor in zone-read and we have a situation where the defense is gonna have a hard time stopping the run consistently.

NOW imagine if the defense is forced to double a receiver? They have to remove 1 defender from the box and a coverage player. Good luck to any defense playing 5 in box vs our 7 they'll get gashed in the run game.

I'm trying to think of where I've seen quick passing spread formation passing game with a sprinkle of read-option.....Baylor....and TCU...

as far as AlMo...i think he'll be fine....what i'm saying is that he will certainly need to do some work to improve in that area, & be certain that he's adept at those things before he's called upon to do so.  there are some things like stiffness when tracking the ball, not always looking the ball into his body, & simply just not doing it enough in the previous 2 years that make me somewhat uneasy at the thought of having to go through some of those growing pains before becoming proficient at it.  i REALLY want to see more HB screens too.

 

 

Truthfully I'm not worried about receiving from the backs. If Almo can't do it, I think Helu will be more then good enough. And there's still the draft.

 

all in all...i think we're in agreement, i was just pointing out that there will be nuanced differences (as there would be with any new set of personnel), mainly due to the fact that Cinci really had size to spare, whereas we lack size, but are now Fortune 500 speed merchants.

 

Oh, no doubt. Its fun talking Xs and Os for a change, even if hypothetical. I am certain there will be differences its fun to kinda breakdown what we might expect based on what we know from the past. I'm excited and eager to see the Grudes-Griffin offense.

 

i like a lot of what i see from Grudes, but i have also voiced some concerns.  for better or worse, he's our problem now, so i'm down to hoping that most of what i saw was some Andy Dalton, a little lack of real WR threats outside of Green, & Gresham's inconsistency.  oh, & a lack of a run game which seems to stem more from their OL being more adept at pass blocking than run blocking.

i like a lot of what i see from Grudes, but i have also voiced some concerns.  for better or worse, he's our problem now, so i'm down to hoping that most of what i saw was some Andy Dalton, a little lack of real WR threats outside of Green, & Gresham's inconsistency.  oh, & a lack of a run game which seems to stem more from their OL being more adept at pass blocking than run blocking.

Not sure what you mean here. I'm think you mean some of the problems with Grudes offense with Cincu was due to Dalton's limitations? If so I agree. I agree that we're deeper at WRs (less so at TE).

I don't think they had a lack of run game, nor that their OL was better at pass pro then run blocking. They actually had a decent run game, but we may as well start getting used to it now because imo there 'lack' of run game was due to Grudes focus on the passing game. More then 1 way to skin a cat though even if it means being a pass first team.

 

BTW-I am still trying to finish responding to your previous post.

[Skinsinparadise]

But, I wouldn't be surprised if Griffin puts up huge numbers. With Jay viewing the offense through the eyes of QB and Griffin being one of the most gifted QBs in the league I could easily see Jay falling in love with Griffin as a passer and really openeing the passing game up.

 

re:draft

I know many people think the FO is/should/will be out of the WR business come draft time. But I still could see them draft a WR, especially one with a different physical skillset then the ones we already have.

 

If the draft geeks are right and they often aren't -- K. Benjamin has moved from being almost slam dunk late first to now where there is a shot he's there at 34.  If so wonder how tempting it would be

[darrelgreenie]

If the draft geeks are right and they often aren't -- K. Benjamin has moved from being almost slam dunk late first to now where there is a shot he's there at 34.  If so wonder how tempting it would be

If it came to WR at 34 I would prefer Martavis Bryant over Benjamin at 34. This being a deep draft for WRs and short of getting Beckham or Martavis Bryant I would look more to guys like: Jordan Matthews, Cody Latimer, Kevin Norwoord, Devin Street in the 3rd/4th round.

Or Brandon Coleman in the 5th-6th.

[DMVLeGenD]

If the draft geeks are right and they often aren't -- K. Benjamin has moved from being almost slam dunk late first to now where there is a shot he's there at 34. If so wonder how tempting it would be

If KB is there @ 34, I'd run to the podium w/ his name in hand and never look back.

[Voice_of_Reason]

DG, in your analysis of the bengals offense, did you see them use a lot of hurry-up?

I just have a feeling that with 11 personnel, and Jackson, Garçon, Roberts, Reed and Morris, you can run or pass out of that personnel group, and if you went hurry-up, I think that could be really tough to defend. It also somewhat forces the defense to play more straight-up, which would aid Griffin by simplifying reads a little bit.

One of my biggest criticisms of Kyle last year is that they refused to consistently go hurry up, which can simplify things for the QB.