One Fans Look to the Future:Robert Griffin

[darrelgreenie]

I don't think the tempo at which Baylor plays would work in the NFL.

But its already working.*shrugs*Eagles, Broncos, Patriots, Bills are all uptempo the Dolphins try to be and plenty of other teams.

Most teams are trying to increase their uptempo packages more. And West Coast Offenses have always wanted to push the tempo these new offenses just push the envelope even more.

 

 the Pats have been going at a faster pace for years, but I don't think the warp speed that Baylor employs is realistic for the NFL.

And you know where Bellichick went to install the uptempo package? Chip Kelly. And Chip Kelly and Art Briles are from the same overall philosophy: up tempo, spread, dash of zone read.

The pace of Baylor's offense isn't much different from Kelly's or Marrone's or Broncos.

 

In over half of the games Baylor plays, their skill players are significantly more talented than the defense.

That might be the case now. But Baylor was not a power house before Briles/Griffin. They weren't the recruiting hotbed loaded with talent. And spinning it forward to the NFL look at the Eagles how much personnel advantage to the they have at WR? or the Pats? or the Bills?

And the up-tempo isn't just about game day pace. Its about overall philosophy. The uptempo guides how they practice to how the call plays to how they install gameplans etc.

 

The uptempo works in the NFL there are NFL teams right now having success with it.

 

For me uptempo is definitely a concept I want to see expanded in our offense going forward.

Its not the end all be all though. It wouldn't be my guiding factor in choosing a system. But it would be one of the compenents I would look for in the offense going forward....along with the spread concept, verticals concept, zone read, screen game, attacking the seams and throwing to position i.e. back shoulder throws. A system/coach that has all those aspects as part of their offensive package would be high on my list.

[PlayAction]

Re:  whether 4 verticals is strictly a deep passing game

In Ty Detmer's discussion of the Four Verticals concept he talks about keying off the free safety.  One of the possible passes against cover 3 is a 5 step plant, inside throw over the LB into space before the middle LB can help out but not so deep that the free safety or CB can move over to cover.   

[darrelgreenie]

Re:  whether 4 verticals is strictly a deep passing game

In Ty Detmer's discussion of the Four Verticals concept he talks about keying off the free safety.  One of the possible passes against cover 3 is a 5 step plant, inside throw over the LB into space before the middle LB can help out but not so deep that the free safety or CB can move over to cover.   

Yes. I'm not sure what you're saying...verts or all-go is a deep passing concept ~17 yard+

[PlayAction]

I guess I was thinking that the hole shots for the A or B receiver were shorter than the 17+ yards.  Originally, I was thinking 8-12 yards but the videos sometimes talk about 12-14 yards. Definitely not the short WCO type pass.  I like having shallow cross variations that can be added to the four vertical concepts. 

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

I'm surprised nobodys posted this yet:

 

http://mattwaldmanrsp.com/2013/10/30/the-degradation-of-a-young-stud-part-i-starring-robert-griffin/

http://mattwaldmanrsp.com/2013/11/04/robert-griffin-part-ii-reasons-for-hope-and-watching-grass-grow/

 

Highlights:

 

 

Griffin begins his drop and his three backs set a perimeter to assist the offensive line. If I didn’t know better, it would appear the coaches are so worried about Griffin’s knee that they’re adding a second layer of protection behind the offensive line to insure the quarterback earns a clean pocket to throw the deep ball without a hit to his legs. I think the coaches are worried more about the offensive line’s difficulty protecting Griffin while he guts through an ACL rehab in record time.

If Washington is going to max protect, shouldn’t they be expecting a heavy pass rush? Is Griffin not reading the safeties’ position or is he not allowed the change the play to something better? This is an ugly play that makes Griffin look like he’s a first-year player who lacks the intellectual sophistication to handle a pro offense. Again, I don’t think this is true nor is it the intent of the coaching staff, but this isn’t the only max protect-simplistic route play in this game. It’s just a disturbing blow-back of creating a simple offense predicated more on elite athleticism and less on spreading the field to manipulate and offense.

It may appear degrading to a player like Robert Griffin, a prospect known for his intellect, but name a young, technically proficient, healthy receiver in Washington’s lineup and you’ll come up empty. Garcon is the closest thing to player to fit this description, but his wheels aren’t back, either. If anything, Griffin’s injury is revealing just how valuable one player’s game-changing ability can be.

 

 

 

Griffin manages to get the ball out despite getting hit, but the pass is understandably lacking velocity and accuracy and falls behind Pierre Garcon. This is a routine occurrence for Griffin this year and a big reason for a drop in yards per attempt and completion percentage. I don’t care who the quarterback is, if he can’t get a clean pocket to deliver the ball without getting hit before releasing the football he’s not going to have consistent, efficient production.

 

 

[PlayAction]

It's an interesting read once you get past the hyperbole of the "horror" in part I.  The more I read this and other articles, the more convinced I am that sitting RG3 for now is in the best interests of the franchise.  Skins need to fix things around him so that a healthy RG3 has a chance for success (both personnel and plays).  I think with a healthy RG3 next season it will be time to force the transition and dump the bunch formations and read-option.  I don't want the hoped-to-be franchise QB getting shell shocked and never improving. 

 

BUT, I'm not ready to trade Cousins yet in case of injury or bust.  I don't want the Skins to have to go through another 3 year learning curve for a new rookie QB.   

[darrelgreenie]

I'm surprised nobodys posted this yet:

 

http://mattwaldmanrsp.com/2013/10/30/the-degradation-of-a-young-stud-part-i-starring-robert-griffin/

http://mattwaldmanrsp.com/2013/11/04/robert-griffin-part-ii-reasons-for-hope-and-watching-grass-grow/

 

Highlights:

I read the 1st part already and didn't know the second part had come out. Thank you for posting this. I think these articles along with the article from Grantland should be required reading for the forum.

The screen caps in the second article reiforce a point made earlier in the thread about spread formations.

Many of Griffin's best plays in the article happened in spread formations and the stats bear this out:

 

Thanks for the Banana Splits guys.

What stood out to me first, was that the more WRs Robert has in the game, the higher the completion %

2WR's = 55.4%

3 Wide 60.9%.

4 Wide 63.5%

I have been wanting to see how Robert would do with more receivers in the game, and actually spread out wide sideline to sideline, including going 5 wide. The splits seem to favor supporting me clamoring to see them more. For the entire year.

[darrelgreenie]

Watching the Ravens/Lions game last night I became convinced that Jim Caldwell has the Offense we should be running. I've gone back and forth on different potential Head Coaches but I'm back on Caldwell now. The majority of plays they ran had 3-5 WR's on the field with Flacco in Shotgun or Pistol. Deep Vertical Routes that play to Flacco's strength throwing down the field and in the middle of the field. This is an Offense Griffin should be running. Mike and Kyle are too stuck on dink/dunk passing, playaction passing, and zone stretch runs. Caldwell is also just the type of low key personality Griffin needs to work with instead of another high strung control freak. The only thing I'm critical of Caldwell about is that he abandons the running game for long periods but the guy has put in coaching time with two Super Bowl MVP's and he has worked in two organizations that haven't had the dysfunction of the Skins.

I meant to reply to this earlier but Flacco is a good comparison in terms of arm talent.

Caldwell manages to get production seemingly out of thin air in regards to the Ravens receiving corps.

They spread it out and he keeps his backs involved in the passing game. His offense appears to spread it out and allow Flacco a chance to chunk the ball down field almost 40% of their passes are deeper then 11 yards.

[darrelgreenie]

Also like the spread formations in the Dolphins offense:

But they're staff doesn't really have a HC candidate.

[darrelgreenie]

Darrell Bevell:

• Green Bay Packers (2000–2005)
  Offensive assistant (2000-2002)
  Quarterbacks coach (2003-2005)
• Minnesota Vikings (2006–2010)
  (Offensive coordinator)
• Seattle Seahawks (2011–present)
  (Offensive coordinator)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darrell_Bevell


Under Bevell’s direction in 2011, Seattle’s offense found its identity: running the football. Over the last-half of the season, the Seahawks running game ranked fifth in the NFL with 1,212 rush yards, posting 100-plus team rushing yards in eight of its last nine games, including a six-game streak that was its longest since the 2002-03 seasons.

He stepped into the Packers quarterbacks role in 2003 with solid results. Favre set a career high with a 65.4% completion rate, led the NFL with 32 touchdown passes and earned his eighth career berth in the Pro Bowl.
In 2005, Green Bay led the NFL in completions (383) and attempts (626) and set a team record in both categories. The 2004 Packers set a team record with 4,449 net passing yards, breaking an 11-year old franchise record en route to ranking third in the NFL in total offense. After setting a team record for rushing yards the season before, the Packers became the first NFL team since the 1988-89 San Francisco 49ers to set team marks in rushing and passing in back-to-back seasons.
Along with Favre in his first year in 2000, Bevell worked with Matt Hasselbeck before his trade from Green Bay to Seattle.
http://www.seahawks.com/team/coaches/darrell-bevell/aa003c1d-a3a9-49fe-a252-058db004a066

--Their website bio is not very in depth.
Bevell was key in the development of Russell Wilson and Seattle's offense:

Well, Coach Bevell was a tremendous coach and he does a tremendous job of just leading our football team in terms of our offense," Wilson said during his new conference this week, via the Chicago Tribune.
"His knowledge of the game, his enthusiasm that he brings, his work ethic, he's always here early, always leaving late, he obviously has a love for the game, and he's young. Not too many people can do that at a high level the way he does it. He's coached a lot of great players in his time.


Obviously, I pray that Coach Bevell stays here, but I also pray for the best for him as well. Whatever is best for him and his family, but at the same time he really helped me develop.

PROS:
o Comes from a West Coast Offense therefore has some built in schematic continuity and verbiage to ease the transition for the players-ZBS; zone-read, WCO passing concepts
o WCO have a history or 'program' for QB development in the rhythm drop back passing game (dating back to Bill Walsh) and this is one area where Griffin could use some rebuilding or rather building
o He ain't scurred to run the ball! (maybe a portion of this comes from Carroll and from having Adrian Peterson)
o Has developed Russell Wilson into arguably the best QB from his draft class
Thoughts on selecting Wilson, Pete Carroll stated, "It was Bevell's project".
o Has worked in different styles of offense from run focused to pass first
o Has held different positions from passing game coordinator, WR coach, QBs coach before becoming OC
o Former QB
o Worked with Favre and some of the best WCO minds
o Seahawks currently 8th in points despite having an average receiving corps and missing both starting OTs for ~70 percent of the season
o has produced top 10 rushing offenses 5 times


CONS:
o offense is more steady then spectacular,
o He ain't scurred to run the ball! (maybe a portion of this comes from Carroll and from having Adrian Peterson)
- has only produced 1 top 10 passing offense in 2009 (w/ Favre when they were the #1 scoring/passing offense)
-has only been top 10 in passing attempts twice: 2006 and 2009 ( QBs were T.Jackson and Sage Rosenfels etc.)

 

                                                                                                                          
Will post specific 2013 offensive tendency stats later.......

 

And try to piece together what the 2014 offense might/could look like with Bevell (and each interviewed candidate)

[darrelgreenie]

Darrell Bevell/Russell Wilson:

 

Percentage of pass attempts:

32% in 4 Wide

43% in 3 Wide

 

65% of passes in Shotgun

[MrJL]

I put it 100% on Shanny, the Colts drafted Luck and they found him deep threats like Hilton in the draft, Seahawks, got Tate, etc.   And, Shanny traded away picks for McNabb and J. Brown.    I agree with those who defend Shanny on two points which is he has been ok with the draft.  OK is about it.  Granted though OK is a big improvement over Cerrato.  And the other point I agree is Shanny ultimately understands offense.   If Mike Shanahan could redefine head coaching to mean -- its really being a glorified offensive coodinator and the rest of the stuff just doesn't matter, then he's been fine.

 

 

Shanahan spent a hell of a lot of the draft picks he had on depth picks or projects.  We're four deep at OLB with Rak, Kerrigan, Jackson and Tapp and he drafts Brandon Jenkins?

 

We've got Morris, Helu and Royster and he drafts Thompson and Jamison?

[ddub52]

IF RG3 hadn't gotten hurt and was still playing exactly the same as last year, no one would be talking about Nick Foles having "progressed" more than him. 

[skins island connection]

 Something you have to keep in mind regarding Griffin at Baylor; he's going up against kids who most likely never sniffed the NFL draft.

 The NFL is the best of college players, a whole different scenario all together.  You can't make a comparison of college and NFL players, its just not feasible.

 

 If he heals mentally, cures his footwork issues and locking onto 1 receiver, then he will progress well; but it also takes a receiver corp who always sell their routes; I've seen way too many times where a receiver figures he's not getting the ball and half ass runs his routes; you see a QB like Manning, his receivers know there's a good chance the ball is coming their way, so the urgency for them is to sell their routes.

[darrelgreenie]

Not sure what you mean here *shrugs* it is a deep passing concept. All the receivers except for the running back are trying to get downfield in a hurry and 'win' their match-up. But there is a checkdown/outlet to the back, but Spurrier had those too. But its one concept of many different concepts that make up an offense. Its not the overall scheme, just a concept I would like to see in the offensive aresenal that this offense doesn't feature.

Anyhow here is a good All-22 view of the Bengals running All-go special where the QB takes the checkdown to the RB @ :30s

some Dalton Bengals numbers:

586 pass attempts

1 TE 227 at--39%

2 TE 148 att--25%

Shotgun 420---72%

I-Form 13--3%(Wow, watch out D.Young if the only pass 13 times they can't run a whole bunch from I-form)

Singleback 458--78%

3 WRs 226--39%

4 WRS 195--33%

3+ Wide--72%

[darrelgreenie]

Breakdown of Receiving TARGETS/RECEPTIONS

[darrelgreenie]

some Dalton Bengals numbers:

586 pass attempts

1 TE 227 at--39%

2 TE 148 att--25%

Shotgun 420---72%

I-Form 13--3%(Wow, watch out D.Young if the only pass 13 times they can't run a whole bunch from I-form)

Singleback 458--78%

3 WRs 226--39%

4 WRS 195--33%

3+ Wide--72%

One of the Bengals/Gruden popular formations/concepts:

3 Wide Spread + zone-read:

[gholmesbm]

I have thought all season that our passing game has been hampered in both play calling and execution by more than just RGIII's lack of experience in the traditional passing game, as follows:

 

(a) we need multiple receivers who can beat man coverage. Defenses can, and do, go to man coverage and put an extra body up to stop our running game. If our receivers cant get open, we are toast. Garcon is good, but the lack of another wideout who can consistently get open in man coverage is a problem. That's why our TE's have been successful (Davis, then Reed) - they are the only other matchup nightmare for the defense who has to man them up with a LB or S. But that's not enough.

 

( The OL's weaknesses in traditional pass protection in the absence of the read option and surprise play action pass. They limit the time available for routes to develop. This is a problem when combined with receivers who can't get open quickly.

 

© The above two put a premium on RGIII being able to go through multiple progressions, which he just doesn't have much experience at. It also means that he will lack confidence in both his receivers (as to whether they can beat their man) and his line (as to whether they can protect him long enough) and this was evident in his pocket demeanour, and therefore his timing, accuracy and judgement, all season long. The combination of these 3 makes our passing game weak, and if the other team does a good job against the run, even if they have to commit an extra body to do it, they are in a good position by just running man coverages in the passing game.

 

 

We need to improve our pass protection schemes and talent, add at least one wideout who can consistently beat man coverage, perhaps add an additional receiving weapon at receiver or out of the backfield, and work with Robert on the traditional passing game, I think we will see rapid improvement and success in our passing game and return to being a feared offense.

[darrelgreenie]

One of the Bengals/Gruden popular formations/concepts:

3 Wide Spread + zone-read:

 

Mentioned earlier about the difference between read-option and zone-read wanted to add the Bengals differences.

They run it from shotgun as opposed to pistol and they use spread as opposed to bunch. So instead of having a FB and TE in the backfield which invites more defenders into the box to play the run they replace the FB with a WR and add they move them out of the backfield and spread them out on the line. 

So instead of this:

 

You get this:

 

Mike/Kyle had the QB run the read-option playside the Bengals run their QB to the backside AND Mike/Kyle often left an 'optioned' or left the edge defender 'unblocked'  the Bengals block the edge defender:

 

 

 

And here they have the RB cutback to reach the flow LB.

 

If Dalton was 4.5 instead of 4.8 this play would have been a huge gain instead of an ~8 yard gain.

[RandyHolt]

thanks so much DarrelGreenie

 

It seems Dalton likes to do many of exact things you were suggesting we should be running... pretty much all season.

[Cliffmark1]

I appreciate your optimism and maybe under a perfectly taliored spread offense Griffin could be Rodgers + Newton.  Right now I'd be fine with him just being as good as Rodgers.  If RG3 can become as good as Rodgers in his career the draft picks are worth it. 

 

If anything derails that progress its possible RG3 won't even be as good as Doug Williams.  He's got a lot of obstacles to overcome in no small part because he is the Redskins QB.  In another way because he's a media lightning rod, super impressive as an individual athlete but in a team sport where coaching & teamwork is a critical part of the game to win.

 

There is a reason everyone is saying he just needs to work.  This is an important time for him to grow.  This offseason is 100% critical to his development.  If he starts getting consumed by social media, awards, endorsements he might limit himself.  I say start because I don't think its interefered in the past; its just that he is under such intense media scrutiny and pressure in terms of his performance and regaining form that it could become an issue. We will know a lot more about RG3 next season. 

 

He could be a champion or he could get derailed from that but learning the rythm drop back from center will be a big step.  I'd also like to see some more spread. He does have a lot of upside but a lot of obstacles including a haslet led defense and a blood thirsty media.

[darrelgreenie]

....learning the rythm drop back from center will be a big step.  I'd also like to see some more spread...

I posted some stats from the Bengal's offense ealier and surprisingly it shows the same use of 3+ WR formations at 72%.

On the surface the stats show equal use of spead i.e. 3+ WRs formations. But, as you know from watching the offense last year it often used our WRs in the backfield and used them in tight/condensed formations.

From watching the Bengalson rewind; functionally they are in spread a lot more then the offense from last year.

 

I think Griffin needs to improve in the under center passing game also BUT the Bengal's offense really doesn't use a lot of under center passing. Dalton was in shotgun for 72% of his passing attempts vs Griffin who took  58% from gun.

 

In many respects Griffin is Dalton 2.0.

They share the same college background as shotgun-spread-zone-read QBs; except Griffin has far better arm talent and is a far more dynamic playmaker/runner. Grude built an offense around Dalton that led to 4,293 yards 33 TDs 20 INTs 88.8 rating. My only question is whether we have enough talent offensively to put up Bengal's numbers in the passing game?

[darrelgreenie]

Downfield passing attempts:

 

2013 Dalton 86 attempts 20+ yards vs Griffin 46 attempts

 

2012 Dalton 67 attempts 20+ yards vs Griffin 36 attempts

[darrelgreenie]

thanks so much DarrelGreenie

 

It seems Dalton likes to do many of exact things you were suggesting we should be running... pretty much all season.

Thank you and its my pleasure. There is very little actual football talk going on in the forum right now; i gotta keep my sanity somehow.

This thread helps.

I posted this in the other thread:

While I don't have a favorite play, I do think Griffin does well with quick throws.

 

I want to see what he can do with 5 wide / shotgun.

PFF QB's stats are great they have an awesome stat  that tracks the average time from the snap of the ball to the throw:

Dalton lead the league in that category:

 

Quick passing game appears to be a focus of the Bengals passing game.

[RandyHolt]

 

Thank you and its my pleasure. There is very little actual football talk going on in the forum right now; i gotta keep my sanity somehow.

This thread helps.

It seems Gruden appears a good fit for RG3.

 

Thanks again for reaffirming what I was hoping would be true.

 

I knew he had to be doing good things in Cin leading a rookie 2nd round QB (no one here seemed to want) to 3 straight playoffs, but didn't know what they ran nor if he was a logical good fit for 3.

 

These groundbreaking studies rock

Downfield passing attempts:

 

2013 Dalton 86 attempts 20+ yards vs Griffin 46 attempts

 

2012 Dalton 67 attempts 20+ yards vs Griffin 36 attempts

 

Sounds like he likes to stretch the D to open things up. You can see why Haslett was so predictable to open our game against them. Coaching scared of the deep ball and still getting burned deep

 

Priceless.

 

Great work, Jay

 

Its more than Kyle ever did.