One Fans Look to the Future:Robert Griffin

[HuhWHATdefense]

Anyone else manage to see this? Pretty interesting.

Sorry... Meant to add this.

[skinny21]

I haven't seen many talking about designed QB runs. In theory, it's a good thing for Griffin and the offense - the 2012 season was testament to this. However, calling QB runs means defenses gameplan for it... meaning Griffin is having a much tougher time actually running. I wouldn't mind seeing the designed runs scrapped. Let Griffin focus solely on the passing aspect of the game/position in the offseason. Let defenses grow complacent about Griffin's running ability (to some extent) and let him work his magic scrambling... you know, when defenses aren't ready for it.

I general, I think the playcalling/coaching has been poor this season. I do believe they were hamstrung to some extent though due to a lost offseason. Specifically (and notably) his second offseason. One where he would have come in with a solid foundation to build from. Unfortunately, that foundation was washed away in the flood. Sure, the new foundation looks shaky at the moment, but I think this next offseason should... 'cement' it a fair bit.

[darrelgreenie]

As darrelgreenie noted in his OP the first year offense was awesome....

With a new coach I don't see the read option happening anymore because RG3 considers a "running" QB to be a loser.  However, I do seem him scrambling quite a bit and exposing himself to injury.  If he regains the ability to extend plays I could see him running something along the lines of the old Philly offense (with a new top notch pass catching RB) and multiple WR sets.

I don't know where the idea that Griffin doesn't want to run comes from, because if he didn't want to run he wouldn't scramble and clearly he does.

I think the next offense will 100% have some element of read-option. When you have a QB with Griffin's skillset it would be foolish not to. But, the difference will be how the incorporate the read-option into the offense and what type of read-option.

In my previous thread I mentioned how our offense is dive-read or midline read but it also has a dash of triple option. I don't think the new offense will have those read-option concepts.

 

dive/mid-line read:

Brian Billick breaks down:

-^^quick mention LBs aren't giving up the void this year, they are dropping into underneath coverage

 

 

zone read:

I hope instead of dive/mid-line read I hope we do true ZONE-read. Below is one of the most basic but accurate break downs of the ZONE-read:

I like ZONE-read better then our or 49ers dive/midline read is because it takes defenders away from the middle of the field thus making it harder to build an 8 man front.

Our offense and the 49ers used dive/midline read-option the Eagles, Seahawks, Panthers, Broncos, Packers use zone read.

Seattle

Eagles zone-read + bubble

 

SUM: I hope we switch from dive/midline read-option to ZONE-read option. But, either way I expect the new offense to have some form of option concepts to take full advantage of Griffin's skillset. BUT I don't expect the offense to be built around the option.

 

To be continued....

[Voice_of_Reason]

I'm guessing you're a fan of Pete Carmichael/Aaron Kromer, Josh McDaniels, Clyde Christensen as coaching candidates or if not them in particular the system they come from?

 

In your second paragraph you're describing the difference between our offense and Seattle's.

 

Well, I kinda wish we could just hire Sean Payton.  But that doesn't seem to be in the cards.  

 

I like Carmichael.  The one thing that causes me pause is that when Sean is there, he calls the plays.  I know that Sean was suspended last year, and the offense functioned very well.  But the question that you have to ask about Carmichael, or you're not doing your due diligence, was last year was he more the beneficiary of the system Payton left in place and Drew Brees being the coach on the field, or was he really responsible for the offense? Now that Payton is back, he's calling plays again.  And Brees, Payton's system, and the personnel can make a lot of people look pretty good.  How much responsibility does Carmichael have vs. Payton and Brees this year, and last year?  Not saying that he shouldn't be a candidate, just saying you've got to do a ton of homework on him, to make sure he's really ready.  The Saints also lost 4 straight to open the season when Carmichael was the interim coach. I mean, losing Payton, Vitt, and the GM are huge losses.  And the defense was absolutely atrocious.  But... You have to do a ton of homework on Carmichael. 

 

Kromer I like a lot.  I think what he's been able to do in Chicago this year, while rotating QBs, has been pretty impressive.  The only question about him is does he really have enough just general experience as an OC yet to take over as HC of an NFL team. 

 

Josh McDaniels is interesting. He really flamed out in Denver, and got into pissing matches with just about every one of his star players.  But he's very good with X's and O's.  I don't know how good a personality fit he would be with Griffin, or if the two would just come to blows.  But, he's had some experience, and you'd have to think coaching for Belichick twice has got to rub off on you in some way, right? My concern about him would just be that he is the modern day Norv.  Great OC with X's and O's, but not a very good HC for personality reasons (very different personality reasons than Norv, but personality reasons none the less). Though maybe if he didn't have any GM duties, he'd be ok... Dunno. Again, lots of homework needed. 

 

I'll be brutally honest that I know nothing about Christenson, but he's worked with Luck and Manning, and been an OC for the Colts (though I think he was the OC the year P. Manning was out, and they couldn't get 2 yards a game) so I'm going to say he knows how to work with QBs.  I really don't know about him as a HC or OC.  

 

I'm going to post this in the Coach thread, but the more I think about it, an unlikely candidate has emerged in my head for HC.  Most people will think I'm off my rocker, and lost all reason, contrary to my handle.  But the name I keep coming up with is Rob Ryan.  I'll post why elsewhere.

[darrelgreenie]

Well, I kinda wish we could just hire Sean Payton...

 

You have to do a ton of homework on

 

Dunno. Again, lots of homework needed. 

 

I'm going to post this in the Coach thread,

Good info but like you mentioned a better fit in the coaching thread. This is more an exploration of the future of the offense in terms of tangibles and Xs and Os and philosophy not a direct breakdown of the candidates. But briefly, every candidate will have questions that can only be answered given an opportunity.

 

btw fwi- Kromer does not call plays in Chicago, Trestman does and Kromer didn't call plays in NO either. But that doesn't mean he doesn't know how to put together an offense or lead a team.

[Skinsinparadise]

Here's where it is neither Shanahan's fault nor Griffin's... With our cap, and draft situation we have had to settle for minimum upgrades in order to address all of our needs rather than filling holes with great talent. With that said, our R Tackle situation is in bad need of another upgrade. We can't protect RG3 enough to take as many deep shots as we would like.

 

Although I must admit, I'm interested to see the results when Cousins is calling protections because I have heard several analysts say that RG3's calling of the wrong protection has led to quite a few of the sacks he has taken.

 

I put it 100% on Shanny, the Colts drafted Luck and they found him deep threats like Hilton in the draft, Seahawks, got Tate, etc.   And, Shanny traded away picks for McNabb and J. Brown.    I agree with those who defend Shanny on two points which is he has been ok with the draft.  OK is about it.  Granted though OK is a big improvement over Cerrato.  And the other point I agree is Shanny ultimately understands offense.   If Mike Shanahan could redefine head coaching to mean -- its really being a glorified offensive coodinator and the rest of the stuff just doesn't matter, then he's been fine.

 

But back on point, if you can take the top off the defense, it tends to open up everything else.  Griffin's deep ball was incredible in Baylor.  Its amazing that this part of his game presents no threat right now.  So yeah again granted simple from an X and O's discussion -- but he needs a deep threat IMO to bring out his full game. If he had his own Josh Gordon type, IMO it would make a big difference.  Looking at FOs -- maybe Tate, Sanders?  

[PlayAction]

Re:  Zone-read and spread offenses (Chip Kelly Eagles, and Seahawks)

 

The one knock I've heard for our existing RB tandem is that Morris' strong suit is not pass blocking.  He is catching more passes out of the backfield than last year but I don't think he's really dynamic like the Eagles and Seahawk RBs.  It's like asking Logan Paulson to be a pass catching TE - - he can do it but he's not going to be a main playmaker in that regard.  Helu should fit the role nicely but there's concern about his durability with a heavy load.  I think with a new approach the Skins would have to be open to trading off any players that fit the old system but weren't really good in the new - - even Alfred Morris if they could get sufficient value. 

 

While the O Line is geared to the zone blocking scheme it is, as we all know, extremely light by NFL standards.  I don't know if these guys can hold up in pass pro sufficiently if we go to consistent 3 and 4 WR sets.  I'm not as optimistic about the transition. 

[darrelgreenie]

Re:  Zone-read and spread offenses (Chip Kelly Eagles, and Seahawks)

 

The one knock I've heard for our existing RB tandem is that Morris' strong suit is not pass blocking.  He is catching more passes out of the backfield than last year but I don't think he's really dynamic like the Eagles and Seahawk RBs.  It's like asking Logan Paulson to be a pass catching TE - - he can do it but he's not going to be a main playmaker in that regard.  Helu should fit the role nicely but there's concern about his durability with a heavy load.  I think with a new approach the Skins would have to be open to trading off any players that fit the old system but weren't really good in the new - - even Alfred Morris if they could get sufficient value. 

 

While the O Line is geared to the zone blocking scheme it is, as we all know, extremely light by NFL standards.  I don't know if these guys can hold up in pass pro sufficiently if we go to consistent 3 and 4 WR sets.  I'm not as optimistic about the transition. 

I can't speak to whether Morris is strong/weak in pass protection, he hasn't been on the field often in 3rd/passing situations. So I got no opinion one way or another, but I think I would notice if he was especially deficient. Judging by his playing style and mentality I think he could learn to be a good in pass protection.

But, for me you don't trade away a RB like Morris unless you get a kings ranson in return. While he's not McCoy by any means you don't need McCoy to have a funtional zone-read running game. I think Morris will fit just fine regardless of which direction the offense/running game moves.

 

I also think Helu fits the bill of a zone-read back because he has speed, homerun ability and catching ability out of the backfield. I agree that Helu shouldn't get the full workload of a lead back but could increase the role he has now and he could be change of pace/receiving back.

 

I think the tandem of Morris/Helu is more then adequate for whichever scheme we run next. Imho getting rid of Morris via trade is digging a needless hole only to search for a means to fill it.

 

I agree that we need help on the OL, not because of scheme but because of talent. I think we can upgrade from anywhere along the interior and RT. But, I'm not convinced some of the solutions aren't in house. It sucks that Maurice Hurt has been banged up this season but depending on the recovery prognosis I think he's an instant upgrade at either OG spot. RT? FA/draft or fingers crossed on Compton (longshot I know). But, I am optimistic about the ability of the OL to transition because the scheme won't change a lot AND a more efficient passing game with quicker drops and quicker releases will put less onus on pass protection. If you look at the Seahawks they have one of the top offenses and they were missing both their starting OTs til about 2 weeks ago and they were banged up on the interior as well. In fact I would argue that our OL while not very good is better then their has been.

[darrelgreenie]

I do seem him scrambling quite a bit and exposing himself to injury.  If he regains the ability to extend plays I could see him running something along the lines of the old Philly offense (with a new top notch pass catching RB) and multiple WR sets. 

One aspect of the offense I want to see improve is the scramble. I know the immediate thought is that teams don't practice the scramble. But, I know Bill Walsh did with the 49ers and Cooley mentioned on his radio show how Kyle doesn't practice scramble drill/rules very often.

And he also mentioned how the Eagles/Reid practiced scramble rules for almost every pass play.

 

Bill Walsh-Finding the Winning Edge: Planning for Situations When the Quarterback is Forced to Scramble

 

 

Although a scrambling quarterback is usually indicative of the fact that an offensive breakdown of some sort has occured, establishing guidlines for the quarterback to follow in this situation can salvage a positive outcome on the play......

Anticipated that one in five drop-back passes will result in a scramble. As a consequence, considerable practice time should be allotted to this aspect of the game......

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Bill Walsh, along with Tom Landry (God rest both), are two of my favourite non-Redskin's of all time. 

 

Just thought I'd add. Continue on. 

 

Hail. 

[darrelgreenie]

...But back on point, if you can take the top off the defense, it tends to open up everything else.  Griffin's deep ball was incredible in Baylor.  Its amazing that this part of his game presents no threat right now.  So yeah again granted simple from an X and O's discussion -- but he needs a deep threat IMO to bring out his full game. If he had his own Josh Gordon type, IMO it would make a big difference.  Looking at FOs -- maybe Tate, Sanders?  

Even aside from the personnel flaws, and once again label me a homer if you must, I think our deep passing game has a lot of room to expand even with our current group. We have 3 WRs that ran sub 4.40. One concept that was touched on in one of the 'Opening Script' threads for earlier this season is the veritcals concept. This is a concept that Chris Cooley mentioned on his show that ~'we don't use because we don't teach it very well' (Chris's words not mine). 

 

Anyhow here is a brief breakdown of the concept:

 

Our personnel form left to right could be: Garcon, Reed, Hankerson, Aldrick or throw Garcon in the slot with Reed iso left hopefully against a LB but I digress here's what it looks like:

 

Aaron Rodgers Pack All-Go

 

 

Here is the play in action from the Saints:

 

....Payton and the Saints actually try to dictate to the defense and force them to play with a single high safety rather than two-deep.

 

How do they do that? By going to a “trips” formation, or one with three receivers to one side. Defenses don’t like to use cover-2 against trips because the single half-field safety has to deal with three possible vertical threats to his side, thus the defense usually checks into either cover-one man or three-deep zone. But with knowledge comes power, and for Brees knowing what the defense is likely to play enables him to quickly know where to go with the football — or at least know who he has to read to determine that.

 

vv Great article on the Saints vertical concept:

http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/25/drew-brees-and-the-four-verticals/?_r=0

[skinny21]

DG - just re watched the Hankerson highlights and saw two things that excite me. Robert climbed the pocket really well (didn't see him bail a lot, which has been a problem this year - an o-line problem, to spell it out).

The other was Hankerson. He was really quite solid last year. Maybe a 2-3 times he could have stretched out for the ball and didn't, but I saw a guy that could get open, catch some tough balls and get upfield. Didn't see him playing soft as many have alluded to.

Add a #2 that can move to the slot when Hank is in (along with a lineman or two to maintain the pocket and better playcalling) and this passing game can take off.

[Grossman8]

I think trading RGME is the future, let's get what picks we can and start Grossman. I think Grossman can lead this team much better than RGIII.

[skinny21]

I think trading RGME is the future, let's get what picks we can and start Grossman. I think Grossman can lead this team much better than RGIII.

Lol, that's a good one.

If Cousins is terrific these next few games, I'm sure more people will be calling for Griffin to be traded (which I think is wildly improbable, on both counts), but here's the problem... why would we trade Griffin when his stock is at its lowest? Seriously, it would be enough of a black eye that we gave up so much for him and then gave up on him so quickly, but to compound that by trading him when his value is at its lowest would make it even worse.

[darrelgreenie]

Piggy backing on the previous post/discussion on the Veritcals concept/All-Go concept here is a vid on Griffin's deep passing ability, WARNING Jon Gruden is in the video try to ignore him and cut the video off @ 2:25 before Gruden goes full retard:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryMpAPfWoDA

 

Below is a play from Baylor that uses Griffin's skillset of deep ball passing, quick decision making and run threat and uses them in combination with  spread formation+ zone-read play-action + Verticals/All-Go concept

 

[RVAbrendan]

^ stared him down the whole time 

 

In all honesty, I don't believe Griffin has entered the Ramsay/Campbell pitfall. His ceiling is too high. He is too determined not to bounce back after this serving of humble pie with a crow reduction sauce.

 

You can't give up on a guy so quickly - if he gets traded, I've said it before and I'll say it again, he will light it up for the next 10 years. It will be another Trent Green, David Akers, Carlos Rogers, Champ Bailey, etc situation. And I just can't handle that!!

[darrelgreenie]

I was having a conversation with RandyHolt that got me thinking about another feature I want for the offense going forward:

UP TEMPO/NO HUDDLE

 

Baylor's offense featured this:

"The biggest thing in the success of our offense is the tempo at which we played," explained Briles at a recent clinic. "I want to be the fastest team in America as far as the number of times we snap the ball. People do not pay money to come to a game and watch a slowdown offense. If they go to the restroom, I want them to come back and say, 'What happened while I was gone?' They will miss something if they leave the game. When we have the ball, we will do something with it. You only get 12 possessions a game, and we want to get our money's worth."³

^{http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9861289/chris-brown-how-art-briles-potent-offense-made-baylor-national-title-contender}

 

Clip below has a discussion of the tempo of the Baylor offense (WARNING if you can only take Jon Gruden in small doses jump to 2:30-5:30):

 

 

Some other up-tempo teams include the Eagles, Bill and the Patriots (imagine that).

Great vid of how the Pats changed their offense to run more up tempo:

 

[jtpop]

RG III is the future of this franchise, he had no off season other than rehab and he was getting beat to death by defenses. Hard to go through your progressions when you have guys breathing down your neck. I think with the right OC and QB coach (he needs REAL coaches not Kyle and his buddy) he will right the ship. He needs a better line and an additional weapon or two would make all the difference in the world to his development.

 

My plea to our owner would be to please put people around RG III that allows him to develop and progress as a QB. What does the resume's of the current OC and QB coach reflect that shows you they have a track record of developing QB's? It is a blank page because there are absolutely nothing on it.

[SweetAlfred]

To add to the positivity:

 

• Alfred Morris has yet another 1,000 yard year. Currently fifth runningback in rushing yards at 1,125
• Pierre Garcon has his first 1,000 yard year. A career high of 1,146 currently
• Brian Orakpo returns to form racking up double digit sacks, currently at 10.0 sacks

 

All this in a losing season, not bad eh!?

[Cliffmark1]

rg3 is off the chart in ability I think the cap penalty him coming off injury and trying to play the game in a different way then he has was just a bit too much.

[PlayAction]

Well, it's good to see that the verticals/all-go concept isn't strictly a deep passing game.  I was a bit concerned that we were looking at a replay of Spurrier.  RG3 likes Aldrick and he certainly has the necessary speed.  Aldrick's target/completion rate though is relatively low in the current offense - I'm hoping that would improve with a different approach.  Hankerson has always been more of a long-strider rather than having any quick burst of speed.  He definitely could complement any offense but I'm really hoping the Skins get a high talent WR to give the multiple WR sets the most opportunity for success.

 

Going forward the first rule with a young franchise QB is to protect your investment.  Either the plays have to be designed to get the ball out of his hands quickly OR we need a line that can hold up long enough to avoid a good number of the hits he's been taking.  I'm tired of seeing the QB get de-cleated almost every game (and those aren't usually the sacks).  A good screen game might help as well.

[ConcordNCSkinsFan]

Watching the Ravens/Lions game last night I became convinced that Jim Caldwell has the Offense we should be running. I've gone back and forth on different potential Head Coaches but I'm back on Caldwell now. The majority of plays they ran had 3-5 WR's on the field with Flacco in Shotgun or Pistol. Deep Vertical Routes that play to Flacco's strength throwing down the field and in the middle of the field. This is an Offense Griffin should be running. Mike and Kyle are too stuck on dink/dunk passing, playaction passing, and zone stretch runs. Caldwell is also just the type of low key personality Griffin needs to work with instead of another high strung control freak. The only thing I'm critical of Caldwell about is that he abandons the running game for long periods but the guy has put in coaching time with two Super Bowl MVP's and he has worked in two organizations that haven't had the dysfunction of the Skins.

[Koolblue13]

I think trading RGME is the future, let's get what picks we can and start Grossman. I think Grossman can lead this team much better than RGIII.

Come on Rex, this is getting embarrassing for all of us. We appreciate all that you've done for us, but come on now. We drafted two QBs high in the same draft. You're never going to start again. It's probably time you retire and start the next phase of your life. There is counseling available to you through the NFL. Thanks for your hardwork my friend.  

[skinsdude]

Watching the Ravens/Lions game last night I became convinced that Jim Caldwell has the Offense we should be running. I've gone back and forth on different potential Head Coaches but I'm back on Caldwell now. The majority of plays they ran had 3-5 WR's on the field with Flacco in Shotgun or Pistol. Deep Vertical Routes that play to Flacco's strength throwing down the field and in the middle of the field. This is an Offense Griffin should be running. Mike and Kyle are too stuck on dink/dunk passing, playaction passing, and zone stretch runs. Caldwell is also just the type of low key personality Griffin needs to work with instead of another high strung control freak. The only thing I'm critical of Caldwell about is that he abandons the running game for long periods but the guy has put in coaching time with two Super Bowl MVP's and he has worked in two organizations that haven't had the dysfunction of the Skins.

If I could take anything that the Ravens have, it would be luck. They have a boatload of that.

[darrelgreenie]

Well, it's good to see that the verticals/all-go concept isn't strictly a deep passing game. I was a bit concerned that we were looking at a replay of Spurrier.

Not sure what you mean here *shrugs* it is a deep passing concept. All the receivers except for the running back are trying to get downfield in a hurry and 'win' their match-up. But there is a checkdown/outlet to the back, but Spurrier had those too. But its one concept of many different concepts that make up an offense. Its not the overall scheme, just a concept I would like to see in the offensive aresenal that this offense doesn't feature.

Anyhow here is a good All-22 view of the Bengals running All-go special where the QB takes the checkdown to the RB @ :30s

 

  

  RG3 likes Aldrick and he certainly has the necessary speed.  Aldrick's target/completion rate though is relatively low in the current offense - I'm hoping that would improve with a different approach.  Hankerson has always been more of a long-strider rather than having any quick burst of speed.  He definitely could complement any offense but I'm really hoping the Skins get a high talent WR to give the multiple WR sets the most opportunity for success.

You don't even need an all-star cast of receivers to execute the all-go concept. The Saints and Bills are 2 teams that I know use the concept and there WR corps isn't that much better then ours. But another WR would certainly help. I posted some vids of a Benjamin from FSU that I would love to have.

 

Going forward the first rule with a young franchise QB is to protect your investment.  Either the plays have to be designed to get the ball out of his hands quickly OR we need a line that can hold up long enough to avoid a good number of the hits he's been taking.  I'm tired of seeing the QB get de-cleated almost every game (and those aren't usually the sacks).  A good screen game might help as well.

AMEN bro AMEN. Part of the reason why the Eagles WRs are effective is because of the pass protection. They have 1 deep threat in DeSean and try hard guy in Riley Cooper and Jason Avant that's the extent of the WRs corps but those guys make chunk plays. And it starts up front from tackle to tackle that OL is stout and talented. Lane Johnson at RT? On most teams he could be LT and Peters one of the best OT in the league at LT. #jealous

 

I'll make another post on screens. I certainly agree a good screen game could help the offense out a lot. And a good screen game is all about exection more then talent. Off the top of my head to offense that do it well are Andy Reid's and once again Sean Paytons.