I hope tonight's game erases any illusion about the "talent" level on this team.

[Hooper]

We desperately need to overhaul the front office, hire a real GM for starters.

 

But Danny has shown no inclination to do that.

[Sticksboi05]

Where the **** do we beat the 49ers in talent or at the skill positions?  Seriously?

 

QB - even

RB - yes

WR - no

TE - not even close

O-line - no

D-line - embarrassing to even compare

LB - don't make me laugh

DB/safety's - seriously?

[TexasSkinsFan]

We had the Seattle Seahawks down 14-0 and on the ropes.

 

We had the Denver Broncos down 21-7 and on the ropes.

 

Plenty of talent, but effort and execution are issues.  Also doesn't help when you sit an All-Pro calibre TE in Fred Davis who could be helping us.

 

Both of your references above are debatable. The Seahawks game was not over in the 2nd quarter, Peyton Manning is never out of the game in the 3rd quarter when he is down by only 2 TD's. Both of these examples show me two things

 

1. The team doesn't understand how to keep the pressure going for a full 60 minutes. If the Ravens last superbowl couldn't play a full 60 minute game they would have lost. Teams that play 60 minutes respond like the Patriots did last Sunday night. This coaching staff doesn't understand how to make the players play full effort for 60 minutes.

 

2. The coaching staff is a one trick pony. When they are stopped they wilt. There is too great of an entitlement feeling with this staff. In the Seahawks game everyone knew by halftime that Griffin should be sat down. The coaching staff choose to allow him to stay in the game and it hurt the staff since. Why wasn't Griffin pulled? Why did the same staff put Griffin in to start the season? The staff is breeding this entitlement mentality. Why is the coaching staff continuing to out think themselves and refusing to go back to basics with this team? Why isn't Mike Shanahan feeling more pressure and taking over the play calling like Jason Garrett did last week to protect himself? Is anyone on the team being held to a high standard or is the team just stuck in mediocrity? Is there any players on the team that the young guys can look to and say "I will not let (insert name) down and will not make any mistakes"? If there are no adjustments, the other team will make adjustments. If there is no accountability then nothing will change.

 

These problems on this team start with the coaching staff. If the only thing done is to place the blame at the players feet nothing will change. You do not fix a gushing cut with a band aide, you need a tourniquet

[RiggosMohawk]

The cap penalty is why many of these positions have not been upgraded.  We can't afford to upgrade them.I bet Eric Winston and Aqib Talib would have been Redskins without the penalty.  

 

If we knew about the penalty ahead of time, I bet Robert is not even here and Cousins is our starting QB.  No way they give up all those firsts if they knew what was about to happen.

Even as a certified cap-apologist I must admit Shanny's draft record here is starting to shine as a major issue. We aren't talking about the 1st rounders - those are easy. What are we getting out of the 2s 3s and 4s?

The AlMo 6th round steal is awesome, but we can't rely on that to build a team... and it doesn't excuse some bad misses elsewhere earlier in the draft

[garyclarkforhall]

Offensive Lack of Talent

 

Looking back on it now, it's easier to see that the zone read scheme and Griff's running ability last year hid the deficiencies on the offensive line.  Look, this OL can block the hell out of the stretch run scheme, but they can't at any point block for a passing scheme built on single reads or two man routes when people know we're throwing.  

 

The point of having had the lead LESS than any team in the league is critical here.  Our success was built on play action passes last year to hold linebackers, slow the rush, and open HUGE passing lanes.  If you don't ever lead, that threat is almost worthless.  Mix in a QB who is struggling to read coverages and make quick check downs and the offense looks awful.

 

So, if you're going to try to make RG a pocket passer, a massive upgrade on the line will be necessary (probably four guys)... or a change to the passing tree to short and quick patterns and more traditional screens will be a necessity.

 

We have a top line RB, TE, LT, and WR... we have what will be a very good QB.  The line needs an upgrade and so does the #2 WR (Hankerson looks like a fine #3).

 

Defensive Lack of Talent

 

On the defensive side, I saw really good things with Baker, Jenkins, Cofield, and Nield.  They need a blow-it-up guy to get pass rush and Orakpo isn't that guy.  Kerrigan's a fine opposite side guy.

 

Need an upgrade of speed at ILB, a speed rusher at OLB, one CB, one safety (minimum)

 

Busy offseason.

[NoCalMike]

Hey go back and watch just the O-line last night. I think the entire right side of the line was sacked more than Robert. Literally sacked, as in they were bullied to the ground and looked at each other with clueless looks.  It was embarrassing.  How often do you routinely see your O-lineman not only beat or pushed back, but literally bull rushed into the ground?

 

We have an entire right side of the O-line that would not be starters on any other NFL team.   That right side has been anchoring this line for 2 years and we haven't been able to upgrade over backup depth guys.  This is a problem.

[NoCalMike]

I've heard some folks try to use the Patriots argument about not needing super talented players in every skill position.

The difference is the Patriots get great O-line play.  Brady has clean throwing lanes and has all day to find guys open.

Anytime they face a defense that can get after Brady, suddenly the fact that he doesn't have skill players that can get off the ball and get open immediately comes back to haunt him.

 

When a QB has all day to throw the ball, guys will get open.

[garyclarkforhall]

I've heard some folks try to use the Patriots argument about not needing super talented players in every skill position.

The difference is the Patriots get great O-line play.  Brady has clean throwing lanes and has all day to find guys open.

Anytime they face a defense that can get after Brady, suddenly the fact that he doesn't have skill players that can get off the ball and get open immediately comes back to haunt him.

 

When a QB has all day to throw the ball, guys will get open.

I still think the o-line play is helped by the smart quarterback in New Orleans and New England... by getting the ball out their hands early and often in games, it slows the rush (they instead become pass deflectors because they never get home).  Then, later in the game, you can attack them downfield because they quit rushing.  The quick game is not in our repertoire right now... partly because we can't read hots fast enough.

[DM72]

there was no one saying this, be serious here.Look at the 49ers team. Great OLine, strong running game, and a top 2 tight end. They only lack in WR, and they do have a terrible Offensive Coordinator but thats one of the more talented teams in the NFL.And lets not discuss that defense, which is another level.

I was dead serious. Two different analyst said the same thing. Gave us the edge at QB and WR, but gave the Niners a BIG edge in coaching and defense.

[NickyJ]

What bothers me the most is that this team is almost exactly the same as it was last year. Plus or minus a few players who were injured last year that are back now, the only major change we've had is at both safety positions, mostly for the better. Griffin's knee is the only major difference between the teams. Besides Griffin's recovery being sluggish, I don't see any other explanation for why we stink so terribly. How did our team fall apart so easily over the course of nine months?

[kleese]

Last night the OL was atrocious (Trent included) and RG didn't stand much of a chance. When he did have a chance, he was bad as well, but if we are just talking last night, I would agree that RG didn't stand a chance to do much of anything.. And even quick fire elite QBs would have struggled.

But for the year, I think our pass protection has been above average (corroborated by two analytics sites) and the bigger issue has been RG holding the ball too long, making improper reads, and/or WRs not getting open/poor route designs.

[justice98]

Perhaps not....but it could have everything to do with why they are still starting, which is the point I have been repeatedly trying to make.  Do you think with cap space Wilson is still here?  Davis?  Hall? (Even though Hall has had a good year).  

 

The cap penalty is why many of these positions have not been upgraded.  We can't afford to upgrade them.

I bet Eric Winston and Aqib Talib would have been Redskins without the penalty.  

 

If we knew about the penalty ahead of time, I bet Robert is not even here and Cousins is our starting QB.  No way they give up all those firsts if they knew what was about to happen.

 

Did you see what Winston wound up signing for in Arizona?  He signed for next to nothing.  For what we signed Trueblood and Pashos (neither of which made it out of training camp), we could've had Winston.  Can't blame the penalty on everything, they just made some questionable choices in spots.  

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

I guess everyone glossed over when I posted the stats from PFF's grades and showed that the interior line is absolutely godawful at pass blocking and their scores were driven up by Trent and Polumbus playing really well.

[DC9]

What bothers me the most is that this team is almost exactly the same as it was last year. Plus or minus a few players who were injured last year that are back now, the only major change we've had is at both safety positions, mostly for the better. Griffin's knee is the only major difference between the teams. Besides Griffin's recovery being sluggish, I don't see any other explanation for why we stink so terribly. How did our team fall apart so easily over the course of nine months?

 

-Fletcher is a year older and not a year wiser.

 

-Chester's first two years here we rarely heard his name called.  It's been called several times this season along with Monty (who was arguably the best Center in the NFL last year).

 

-Robert had no offseason, coulda shoulda woulda not started in the first four weeks of the season. 

 

-We got smoked in our first two games and I think we were shellshocked as a team

 

 

Couple that with the offseason mess from the Seattle game (include the documentary) and the training camp debacle between QB and head coach...

 

Perfect storm.

Did you see what Winston wound up signing for in Arizona?  He signed for next to nothing.  For what we signed Trueblood and Pashos (neither of which made it out of training camp), we could've had Winston.  Can't blame the penalty on everything, they just made some questionable choices in spots.  

 

Exactly.  Winston wasn't here for some other reason.  Being that he came from Houston, it was probably because he pissed off Kubiak and he and Shanny are boys.

 

EDIT:  Ironically, Pashos was starting for the Raiders and Trueblood for the Falcons... so there was legit competition brought in.  Not what a team expecting to make a run should've brought in, but legit nonetheless. 

[theTruthTeller]

Hey go back and watch just the O-line last night. I think the entire right side of the line was sacked more than Robert. Literally sacked, as in they were bullied to the ground and looked at each other with clueless looks.  It was embarrassing.  How often do you routinely see your O-lineman not only beat or pushed back, but literally bull rushed into the ground?

 

We have an entire right side of the O-line that would not be starters on any other NFL team.   That right side has been anchoring this line for 2 years and we haven't been able to upgrade over backup depth guys.  This is a problem.

Perhaps understated.  The Oline is mostly scrubs who were cut by other teams.

 

Polumbus (UFA) - released by Denver, Detroit and Seattle before coming here. 

Lichtensteiger (4th round) - released by Denver and Minnesota before coming here. 

Montgomery (7th round) - released by Carolina and the Jets (twice).

 

Honestly, I admire the effort these guys give.  They just aren't good enough to be in the NFL.  Not even as backups.

[Commander PK]

Did you see what Winston wound up signing for in Arizona?  He signed for next to nothing.  For what we signed Trueblood and Pashos (neither of which made it out of training camp), we could've had Winston.  Can't blame the penalty on everything, they just made some questionable choices in spots.  

Winston signed for nothing when he knew nobody was going to pay him what he wanted.  Could we have made a move then?  Maybe, but initially he was priced out of our range.  

 

Look, I don't absolve Shanahan of any responsibility for the team's performance, and he can't say what the truth is right now, but as a fan...I can say it.  The cap penalty has made a huge impact on our ability to grow as a team.  He can't say it, because it would throw his current players under the bus...but the truth is many of them would not be here.  

 

I love Robert, but again, if they know before they make that trade that they are about to get docked 36 million in cap penalty money for cleaning up Wormtongue's mess with fat ass the only way they could no way they make that trade.  You can't blame Shanahan for not having a sixth sense.  The league totally ****ed us on that one.  

[NickyJ]

-Fletcher is a year older and not a year wiser.

 

-Chester's first two years here we rarely heard his name called.  It's been called several times this season along with Monty (who was arguably the best Center in the NFL last year).

 

-Robert had no offseason, coulda shoulda woulda not started in the first four weeks of the season. 

 

-We got smoked in our first two games and I think we were shellshocked as a team

 

 

Couple that with the offseason mess from the Seattle game (include the documentary) and the training camp debacle between QB and head coach...

 

Perfect storm.

True about Fletcher, but I didn't expect his aging to take away his memory of how to tackle.

 

For Chester, he must have been doing something right his first to years. What happened between then and now?

 

True about the last two, but those two games were ten weeks ago. They've got to get back on the rails sometime.

[DC9]

True about Fletcher, but I didn't expect his aging to take away his memory of how to tackle.

 

For Chester, he must have been doing something right his first to years. What happened between then and now?

 

True about the last two, but those two games were ten weeks ago. They've got to get back on the rails sometime.

 

re Chester:  I think he turned 30 or 31?  When it happens it happens, Nicky.

 

It's difficult for a team to recover from coming in with high expectations and then to not perform well.  It happens a lot.

 

I still don't think (talent wise) we are bad off.  But I think we are a bad team this season (if that makes any sense).

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

Name a team that has as many major holes as we do.

 

We need to replace WR2, WR3  RG, C, LDE (or NT if we move Cofield), RDE, both MLB, FS, KR, PR, P. That's at minimum. Those are the spots where we have NOTHING beyond a few projects or fringe players. We probably need to replace LG and RT as well. We also need WR4, CB3 and CB4. And our depth is atrocious. We may also need to replace TE2 as well.

 

Consider the following - teams like the Seahawks have their OL shredded by injury and it still outperforms us in terms of protecting the passer.

 

We have 25m tied up in a lot of guys who are not legitimate NFL starters for the most part.

[kleese]

Name a team that has as many major holes as we do.

We need to replace WR2, WR3, WR4 RG, C, LDE (or NT if we move Cofield), RDE, both MLB, FS, KR, PR, P. That's at minimum. Those are the spots where we have NOTHING beyond a few projects or fringe players. We probably need to replace LG and RT as well. We also need CB3 and CB4. And our depth is atrocious.

We have 25m tied up in a lot of guys who are not legitimate NFL starters for the most part.

Indy isn't far behind. Read their boards. They want FOUR new OL at a minimum, at least one more WR and maybe a RB (Richardson sucks and was a moronic trade). Their defense has also gotten absolutely lit up in recent weeks by the Rams and Cardinals.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

Colts need a stud somewhere at OL, preferably at LT, but their line is mediocre. Give RGIII a mediocre line and we're 5-5 or better. Their WR are fine unless Wayne falls off a cliff coming off injury. They do need RB. Their defense is mediocre but not as bad as ours, and has kept Luck in games.

 

Their defense is average in my estimation. Keep in mind they did the 4-3 to 3-4 switch completely on the fly so they have room to grow.

[theTruthTeller]

Name a team that has as many major holes as we do.

 

We need to replace WR2, WR3  RG, C, LDE (or NT if we move Cofield), RDE, both MLB, FS, KR, PR, P. That's at minimum. Those are the spots where we have NOTHING beyond a few projects or fringe players. We probably need to replace LG and RT as well. We also need WR4, CB3 and CB4. And our depth is atrocious. We may also need to replace TE2 as well.

 

A golf course has less holes than we do.

[kleese]

Colts need a stud somewhere at OL, preferably at LT, but their line is mediocre. Give RGIII a mediocre line and we're 5-5 or better. Their WR are fine unless Wayne falls off a cliff coming off injury. They do need RB. Their defense is mediocre but not as bad as ours, and has kept Luck in games.

Their defense is average in my estimation. Keep in mind they did the 4-3 to 3-4 switch completely on the fly so they have room to grow.

Luck has less time throw on average than RG does... And his blind side is constantly under attack.

Now I will say this, organizationally, Luck is in a better spot.... And I'd rather have Pagano than Shanny for sure. But talent for talent, I think the rosters are about even.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

Depends if you think A/B gap pressure is "better" than blind side pressure. Conventional wisdom says yes but I think if you replaced Trent with an average LT, C, LG and RG, he'd perform better because he'd have a pocket to step into so he can learn to play better from it. Mobile QBs like Luck and RGIII can deal better with being flushed because they can create time, but pressure straight up the middle is really hard to deal with. Luck unquestionably has better targets, however, I think Royster would be the best RB on their team.

 

Redskins defense versus Indy isn't even questionable. Neither is teams.

[NoCalMike]

But "time to throw" is not being judged properly necessarily.  It doesn't just mean, "seconds before Robert is sacked"  The integrity of the pocket matters.  Giving the QB a nice clean lane to throw from is important.

 

When you look at it from the opposite side of the ball.  Kerrigan & Orakpo.  They mostly are just edge rushers, they try to burst/bully their way around the ends to get to the QB.  That works sometimes, but more times then not, the middle of our D-line is not pushing and collapsing the pocket, which means there is still pocket integrity and throwing lanes etc etc.....There is a difference between having just edge rushers and having a D-line collapsing the O-line backwards into the QB.

 

Just because Robert is not getting sacked, doesn't mean the O-line is doing well.  They are usually always getting bull rushed backwards, closed in on, or pushed to the ground creating wide open lanes for linebackers to blitz.  All of this effects the QB's ability to sit in the pocket and read a defense.  What happens is when Robert takes his 5-7 step drop, before he can even set and step into a throw, he is already having to scramble or move away......now sure, he can throw the ball away as he starts to scramble just to get it out of there, but once he does that 3-4 times I can guarantee the complaining about "bailing on plays too much" will begin and gain traction.

 

I totally agree with everyone that Robert ultimately to be successful long term needs to improve as a pocket passer.  However in order for that to happen, we need to upgrade the O-line so there is a pocket in tact for him to drop back, sit in and learn to read a defense.  He isn't going to be reading a defense when he is running for his life, or always being in the grasp of a hit as he releases his throw.

 

If you look at Kaepernick's performance from last night.  He looked lost and confused on several plays when the Redskins changed to a cover 3.  Perry Riley should have had a Pick 6, it was thrown into his hands. That could have potentially changed the game or at least made it more competitive for awhile because the 49ers came out cold and sloppy on offense for awhile.  Putting them on their heels might have spooked them a little. Perhaps not, but it was another example of lost opportunity.

 

Go back and watch the game, and look at the difference between when Kap & Robert were under pressure with the pocket collapsing? I'd argue that both of them looked similar when the pocket was collapsing.  Kap started making throws when he had time to throw, could stand back there and find Vernon Davis streaking down the field wide open.  He wasn't getting the ball out in 3 seconds.  Yet we make these ridiculous demands of Robert to do it because of how bad our O-line is.

 

The 49ers have an O-line & D-line that were built over a 5-8 offseason span, with draft picks.  1st, 2nd, 3rd rounders.  Players were traded or let go in order to gain more draft picks.  They had tons of picks every year. Had tons of players to groom and choose from. Only keep the best, get rid of the rest.  That is how you build your lines.  That is how games are won in the trenches and have staying power.