I Don't Trust the Shanahans

[Oldfan]

ArmchairRedskin --- If you understand the X's and O's of the scheme then you understand the the RO actually does keep the defense at bay. It is safer for the QB.

 

Safer than what? Running back kickoffs?

 

Once the QB starts to run, its up to him to keep himself safe. He will have ample opportunity to slide or reach the sideline because he knows where the D players should be according to the play and he never takes his eyes off the defense. If a QB takes a hit, it is because of his judgement, not the scheme.

 

Are you on the Shanahans' payroll? That sounds like a claim they'd make.

 

Not to mention that the play action is a lot safer than a normal play action also due to the fact that the QB does not take his eyes off the defense, unlike a normal PA.

 

What if the unblocked DE rushes, and the QB's momentum is stopped at the mesh point, does the QB get a great view of a helmet in his chest? 

 

I agree, NLC. OF is not interested in having a healthy back and forth. He likes to take unpopular opinions and argue their merits against all comers. 

 

A healthy back and forth? What the hell is that? Is that me making unsupported claims to counter yours? I made arguments. If you make counter-arguments, that's called debate.

[ddub52]

"No new threads, no new threads, no new threads no no new"

 

Once again Oldfan makes a thread to stir the pot and garner attention. 

[SkinsHokieFan]

I see where Oldfan is coming from.

 

I disagree with Oldfan because the organization is as stable and legit as it has ever been in the Snyder era. The team makes smart moves, hasn't over paid, didn't go out and trade a 2nd round pick for an aging d-lineman when Carriker went down last year and has over the course of 4 seasons set this team up for long term success.

 

What Oldfan needs to remember is the odd situations the Shanahans have faced.

 

1) 2010 offseason with an impending lockout and very strange rules in FA. The McNabb trade though was a clear disaster

 

2) The 2011 offseason with the lockout, no OTA's/minicamps etc, an FA period AFTER the draft, and a draft where the team sorely needed picks

 

3) The 2012 offseason where the organization was hit with criminal cap penalties literally minutes before the start of the FA period, which blew up plans to improve the defense (see the thread why hasn't the D improved by Oldfan) and address the o-line better

 

4) The 2013 offseason where the organization is still crippled by those cap penalties but yet was able to keep everyone it wanted to at a lower price (see how many players took actual pay cuts as opposed to re-structures) and drafted young quality players for the secondary and a potential pass rushing star in Jenkins.

 

There are 3 big mistakes I think this regime has made

 

1) The McNabb deal which cost valuable picks, hence the need the following year to trade back. This team could easily have Navarro Bowman and JJ Watt on its defense at the moment

 

2) The Jamal Brown trade/waste of time. Again quality picks were sunk (a 3rd and 5th), and cap space was allocated to someone who didn't contribute enough

 

3) Keeping Griffin in the Seattle game. Horrible lapse of judgement and I still find it inexcusable because RG3 no longer was the best option at QB to help us win that game. After it was 14-0 Cousins was the best option to get a win that game. 

 

Everything else, considering the external factors the organization could not control in the past 4 offseason, has been a homerun. Getting Robert, finding Alfred Morris, cleaning up the cap, bringing in the right FA's who fit the scheme, the regime has been outstanding and better then any FO since Bobby Bethard.

 

I think what OldFan is really stating is that this team should be in even better shape then it is. 3 errors are right now what is the difference between a pretty good team that should make the playoffs, and a team with the talent and depth that the 49ers have and ready to win a Superbowl this year.

 

A fully healthy Griffin+not wasting picks in 2010 on McNabb/Brown and we would be looking at a team ready to truly dominate the NFL

 

If the external factors (cap hit, crazy FA rules) weren't there, AND the Shanny's didn't waste picks in 2010 you could see a defense with Watt/Bowman and Finnegan a fully healthy RG3 and a better o-line that could also pass block in obvious passing downs. 

[Oldfan]

NLC --- 1.) Because they figured he'd learn [to protect himself] eventually.

 

If he didn't get injured first.

 

2.) Because the coach wanted to believe his player when he said he was okay and didn't want to pull his best player out of a big game.

 

Good grief. The injury wasn't internal. Mike didn't need input from his player. The kid was hobbling on one leg. 

 

3.) Because the doctor's deemed him healthy enough to play and because playing without the brace would've been dumb

 

If your rookie phenom QB needs a brace to play, he shouldn't be playing. If that's over-cautious, then so be it. The alternative is to risk more ligament damage. Which, we now know is what happened.

[SkinsHokieFan]

 

The untold story of John Beck is that basically none of the players respected his ability to help them win games, and they were a little annoyed at all the big talking he did. Rex clearly outplayed Beck in preseason, the players believed in Rex. It was pretty much Rex's job until he screwed up. 

Again, your appeal to inside information is unverifiable and I can't speak to or about those notions.

 

But, its revisionist to portray the QB competition as anything other then close. Heading into the Tampa Bay game the QB competition was very close. And to be clear the mere fact that the QB competition was close is indictment on Rex Grossman who had every imaginable advantage over John Beck.

 

>I'm sure Mike really like John Beck and all, but Mike and Kyle might've been the only people that believed i

n him.

I thought you just posted that: "I'd stake my reputation on John Beck and Rex Grossman" was a dumb lie"

 

I think it was still a lie. I think he liked Beck, but I don't think he ever really thought of him as a long term answer, nor do I think he was being completely forthright in "staking his reputation" on him.

 

 

I gotta be honest with the Beck thing.

 

I still believe the Shanahans knew 2011 was going to be a wash of a season and were already looking ahead to the 2012 QB class.

 

Rex had no external trade value to anyone in the NFL. If they could get Beck to show enough flashes, they would trade him to another QB starved team and re-coup a pick out of it.

 

Clearly Beck failed, but I think they really wanted him to succeed enough to get a Matt Cassel deal for him in a season where they were still looking beyond 2011

[Oldfan]

SHF: I see where Oldfan is coming from.

 

No, my friend, I'm sorry to say you whiffed except for the Seattle game mention.

 

This thread was about the Shanahans' being untrustworthy, their use of the media to put most of the blame on RG3 for the injuries he suffered in 2012, and to deny their own fault.

[Oldfan]

"No new threads, no new threads, no new threads no no new" Once again Oldfan makes a thread to stir the pot and garner attention. 

 

I think this poster disagrees with me but he's not sure why.

[Mocountyskins]

Oldfan, people are backing up their opinions with reasons you just won't acknowledge them. It doesn't matter if their reasons don't make sense or don't counter your reasons in your mind. Who are you to tell someone that their reasons are invalid. People keep attempting to debate you and you just shrug it off as "wrong". Personally I don't trust rg3 because he has not been honest and all the transcripts of him saying he is healthy during the Seahawks game back that up. A relationship between doctors, coach and player are important. Rg3 has damaged that relationship by saying multiple times that he was okay. Even if we saw him limping around, he lied. Rg3 has made more comments this week saying that basically they owe it to him to start him. Shanny has not used the media shanny hates media and says as little as possible. Its rg3 that loves the media and feeds them all this nonsense. I trust shanny but I do not trust rg3 with his own health.

[MartinC]

1. I agree that what Shanny says to the media and fans can not be trusted. In that regard then he is the same as 99.9% of all football coaches. I may be being optimistic about the other .1%. He will also act in his own self interest.

2. What they say to the media and us as fans is not important IMO - it's what they say to the players individually and collectively that matters, how they back that up and the relationship between them. None of us are privy to that and in no position to really know.

3. Whatever anyone thinks of Shanny he is no ones fool. He knows his success here is linked to RGIII and he knows that he needs to keep him healthy (as far as anyone can keep an NFL QB healthy). I'm confident that whatever is said in public there will have been discussions and thought about scheme tweaks and additions to minimize the hits RGIII takes. I have no basis for that confidence in anything Shanny says, just common sense that doing that is in his best interests which was one of the charges against him in the OP.

4. The responsibility for keeping RGIII healthy is shared between coaches and player. The percentage split will vary from situation to situation but it's shared. As an example whatever RGIII said to Shanny in the Seattle game about his health it was Shannys job and responsibility to pull RGIII at halftime at the latest not just to protect RGIII but to win the damn game. I'm sure lessons were learned in that game.

To wrap up I have a Gamepass subscription and they just upgraded the service so I have access to full games going back to 2009. Just for kicks I watched a couple of games from 2009 yesterday. It's hard to describe just how bad our offense was. I mean terrible in just about all aspects.

Hopeless in fact.

Say what you like about Shanny but we know at least we have hope and realistic hope at that. That's pretty much all you can ask for from your HC. Our offense is in very good hands on and off the field, it's the defense which needs to catch up now .....

[TSO]

 

MLS --- OF, I always tried to defend your threads, but you lost me with this one sir. Why on the eve of the first pre-season game, coming off a division title, with a team that is still together, and added a couple of pieces, would you even start this thread to rehash the past?

 

What does my timing have to do with it? I'm not a kool-aid dispenser. If you need pumped up, there are other threads you can check out. I pick a side on controversial issues; I make arguments, and I try to generate debate. If you aren't interested in this topic, why post?

 

 

Oldfan, why do you seem to always forget that the act of starting a debate is, well, an act in and of itself? I don't get it. You completely miss something so incredibly obvious that it wouldn't take more than elementary level knowledge and ethics to grasp. It's why I have trouble giving you the credit so many on here do about your "brilliant ability" to generate discussion.  

 

For instance, if I walked into a liberal group meeting organized to discuss war and its consequences, and started arguing about the merits of gun ownership, wouldn't I be ridiculously obtuse if I complained about those among them who were bothered by my choice of subject in the first place? Should I complain when they don't solely focus on my arguments, no matter how sound they are (and trust me, I'm not saying your arguments are sound here)? Should I claim they can't refute my arguments as the reason they're telling me to shut up or maybe re-think the wisdom of my choice? 

 

I mean, you do realize there is a negative trait/state in this world known as "being a contrarian", right? Or do you think that's morally acceptable at all times? Like, when a group of people are discussing the wonderful blessings of parenthood someone from among them comes out of nowhere to debate abortion and the right to choose.

 

I'm sure you understand the concept that there is a time and place for discussions. I know for a fact you wouldn't come into The Stadium talking about how awesome taking a poop feels when you've been constipated for some time. So where do you draw the line?  

 

I do understand this is a Redskin message board open to all views, and I know my analogies there are more on the extreme side and therefore one can't properly deduce from them just how wrong you are, but can you at least admit that you seem to overlook the fact that there is PLENTY reason for optimism in regards to our coaches and organization in general and that, only in your mind, was there a need for a "void" to be filled? Or no, you're absolutely right about some magical void appearing due to a lack of perceived negativity in your mind and that's why it's important for you to let everyone know how little you trust the Shanahan's? 

 

You should understand why you would rub the majority of posters the wrong way instead of responding to each one who lets you know about it with a condescending tone while telling them to only debate what you brought up.  

 

Heck, maybe you need to take your own advice and figure that those posters who got annoyed felt that a "void" in this thread was missing and "needed to be filled" by letting you know how ridiculous bringing up this subject was due to timing among other things.

 

 

And, with that, I officially hate myself. I was close to deleting this post a hundred times because I know what is to come, but screw it. Lol.     

[Rufus T Firefly]

Oldfan, people are backing up their opinions with reasons you just won't acknowledge them. It doesn't matter if their reasons don't make sense or don't counter your reasons in your mind. Who are you to tell someone that their reasons are invalid. People keep attempting to debate you and you just shrug it off as "wrong". Personally I don't trust rg3 because he has not been honest and all the transcripts of him saying he is healthy during the Seahawks game back that up. A relationship between doctors, coach and player are important. Rg3 has damaged that relationship by saying multiple times that he was okay. Even if we saw him limping around, he lied. Rg3 has made more comments this week saying that basically they owe it to him to start him. Shanny has not used the media shanny hates media and says as little as possible. Its rg3 that loves the media and feeds them all this nonsense. I trust shanny but I do not trust rg3 with his own health.

This argument (and it's come from several in this thread) reminds me, as a Red Sox fan, of the Grady Little/Pedro Martinez affair.

 

In 2003, Pedro was simply the best pitcher in baseball (by a long shot) for 100 pitches. Over 100 pitches he became mediocre or worse. Everyone knew it, and that's why the gameplan revolved around getting him out after 100 pitches. The Sox used it to great effect all season. Then, in game 7 of the ALCS Pedro pitched the Sox to a 5-2 lead vs. the Yankees thru 7 innings. He had thrown 100 pitches. But Grady Little left him in the game. And then left him in some more. Until he had given up 4 straight hits and the lead, and it was another night of heartbreak for sox fans.

 

Afterwards, Little tried to defend himself by saying that Pedro had told him he could still pitch. Many of the more casual fans bought this excuse, but I'm not sure I've ever met a knowledgable baseball fan who did. Curt Schilling mocked the very notion in his first Boston press conference.

 

Pedro has multiple Cy Youngs, a World Series title and a future trip to the Hall of Fame. RG3 has a Heisman, Rookie of the Year and hopefully much more to come. What gets men like this to those heights is, among other things, supreme self-confidence and a ridiculous competitive nature. To expect them to volunteer to come out of the biggest games of their life is beyond silly. They don't ever doubt themselves or their ability to will themselves to victory. All they know is that belief and that determination. They will always want to play, it's what makes them great. They don't take themselves out.

 

That's what coaches and managers are for.

[TSO]

^^ Uhm, I'm not sure there are many here on ES that don't think Shanahan was in the wrong to some extent during the Seahawks game. I think the vast majority agree he made a mistake by just going along with Robert and not confronting him then and there like a good leader should, however, the degree of that mistake is what seems to be debated mostly.

 

I'm, for instance, of the opinion that it is EXTREMELY easy to sit back as a fan or an outsider who hasn't been through ANYTHING with said player, whether that be practicing or in real live games where so much passion and fire erupts, and complain about the coach not wanting to go against that player when he says "I deserve to finish this game". Sure, Shanahan should've fired back with "...of course you do and you're awesome for that, but your body just can't in my mind and I'm the head coach so that's that", but let's be honest... it's a confrontation that would make anyone uneasy. So, to me, Shanahan made a mistake, but it was one in the heat of battle and he was caught up in a moment of weakness hoping Robert would surprise him like he has so many times already in his short career and suddenly become effective even though it was OBVIOUS he wasn't going to.    

 

So, sorry if I choose not to hang Shanahan by his throat for what happened. I'm sorry if I don't focus intently on every single thing he mentions in his presser looking to justify my anger towards his mistake and extract what he believes inside of himself. I'm also sorry that I found an extremely smooth path in forgiving the coach who has finally brought the franchise we love after so much failure back to respectability. I don't have trouble trusting him AT ALL looking at the overall direction he has set this franchise on. I'm more willing to listen to the players who say they love how Shanahan treats them with regards to their bodies (Heck, Moss just mentioned this recently) and how he takes care of them than to assume Shanahan finds no fault in his self for keeping Robert in the Seahawks game, which implies a massive lack of empathy on his part towards our best player.       

[Burgold]

I also think it is part of sports.  Who didn't admire Riggins going from hospital traction to the field or even Emitt Smith marching through the playoffs on a broken arm... who didn't cheer Doug Williams coming back into the Superbowl on a bum leg and with a concussion.

What's the diffence between the above and RGIII's story?  We lost.

 

Football history is littered with stories of players who gutted it out and played when they shouldn't have.  We glorify and sometimes deify the players who do it while leading their team to victory.  We crucify and villify teams when it doesn't work.   It goes both ways too.  Jay Cutler was a selfish wimp because the Bears lost, remember. 

[DCsportsfan53]

I also think it is part of sports.  Who didn't admire Riggins going from hospital traction to the field or even Emitt Smith marching through the playoffs on a broken arm... who didn't cheer Doug Williams coming back into the Superbowl on a bum leg and with a concussion.

What's the diffence between the above and RGIII's story?  We lost.

 

Football history is littered with stories of players who gutted it out and played when they shouldn't have.  We glorify and sometimes deify the players who do it while leading their team to victory.  We crucify and villify teams when it doesn't work.   It goes both ways too.  Jay Cutler was a selfish wimp because the Bears lost, remember. 

 

Bingo, it's the nature of football.  Ronnie Lott having a finger chopped off to keep playing, McNabb finishing a game on a broken ankle, TO signing a waiver to play in the SB after a broken ankle, Leftwhich getting carried to the LOS by his OL (in college), like you said the history of the NFL is littered with stories of players who are heros for playing when they shouldn't have been on the field.  The difference is 1) we lost 2) the hypersensitive nature of our culture these days and 3) imo, quite simply Redskins' fans don't yet know how to deal with success and are looking for negatives and ways to knock themselves down.

[Audible_Red40]

In Shanahan I trust!

[DJD2]

I trust the current FO more than any other in the last 20 years.

 

4 years into a 5 year plan they have re-stocked a cupboard that was bare and termite ridden.

 

This current roster can compete with any team in the league and IMO will only get better once they are out of salary-cap penalty hell.

 

For years I suspect players knew they could come to Washington to get paid because of the dysfunction. I suspect now they will want to come to WIN.

[CrypticVillain]

 

MLS --- OF, I always tried to defend your threads, but you lost me with this one sir. Why on the eve of the first pre-season game, coming off a division title, with a team that is still together, and added a couple of pieces, would you even start this thread to rehash the past?

 

What does my timing have to do with it? I'm not a kool-aid dispenser. If you need pumped up, there are other threads you can check out. I pick a side on controversial issues; I make arguments, and I try to generate debate. If you aren't interested in this topic, why post?

Timing matters because you had about 7 months to say rather or not use trust Shanahan, but you waited until the eve of the first game of the season to do it. It's like you wanted to see what could you say to piss us off the most. And I bet you had the idea to post this thread for a while. But it seemed like you wanted to wait until the perfect time to post it.

 

As far as me not interested in this thread, that couldn't be further from the truth. This is interesting, but not for your trust issue, but for the fact that you keep nitpicking about any issue you can find about the Redskins.

[KingGibbs]

I trust the current FO more than any other in the last 20 years.

 

4 years into a 5 year plan they have re-stocked a cupboard that was bare and termite ridden.

 

This current roster can compete with any team in the league and IMO will only get better once they are out of salary-cap penalty hell.

 

For years I suspect players knew they could come to Washington to get paid because of the dysfunction. I suspect now they will want to come to WIN.

I love when people can get their point across without writing a bunch of pointless gibberish. Nice post my friend and you are correct.

[Henry]

I think this front office has done more good than bad, but no, when it comes to the QB position I don't trust them one bit.

Chipwich, one minor point. Out of four drafts, this front office has only made two under the shadow of the cap hammer. In 2011 we traded down repeatedly and made 12 picks. It was absolutely a draft made with the long term in mind. While it can be argued some of our frugality was forced upon us, not all of it has been. The improvement on that front had already been seen before the hammer came down.

[MusicCitySkin]

Mike didn't mishandle the McNabb situation.  McNabb sucked when he was here, and he refused to learn the playbook and take advice from the coaches on how to run the offense, and Mike was too nice to say it in front of a microphone.

[DC9]

In 2011 we traded down repeatedly and made 12 picks. It was absolutely a draft made with the long term in mind. While it can be argued some of our frugality was forced upon us, not all of it has been. The improvement on that front had already been seen before the hammer came down.

 

I'd also argue (and have) that the 2011 draft was done with the idea in mind that we were going to trade up in 2012 to get a QB.  It was anticipated that we were going to have 5-7 QBs in the first round in 2012 (some stayed in school obviously: Landry, Barkley, etc).

 

But this is a professional organization, and when you make the moves necessary to draft 12 players, most of whom made the 53, then you are in position to trade a couple of picks to move up for that QB you haven't had in your franchise in arguably 30 years, plus.

[Rocky21]

It's times like these where I miss the Don't Feed The Troll Smiley. 

[ixcuincle]

I didn't trust them before last season and wanted them gone, but they adapted their offense to RG3 so Shanahans are now face to me. 

 

Would love to have them around for the remainder of their contract. Shanahan and RG3 are a great fit ATM. 

[SWFLSkins]

Heck, maybe you need to take your own advice and figure that those posters who got annoyed felt that a "void" in this thread was missing and "needed to be filled" by letting you know how ridiculous bringing up this subject was due to timing among other things.

 

by the submittedone

 

 

 

thus.....

 

It was much easier and way more productive then slamming my manhood in a trunk arguing a useless point. The point is useless because OF's opinion won't be changed, mountains can be moved but that won't change. No matter how many come with reasonable points they won't be acknowledged and will be shot down as inconsequential, unreasonable blind homer drivel. 

[darrelgreenie]

People in this thread and I guess internet forums as whole are too black and white, and often times hypocritical.

Posting too often becomes an exercise in groupthink.

If Oldfan posted something about a player or situation they disliked: Banks, Haslett etc then it would be perfectly fine to be critical of a Shanahan.

 

Either way how many of us have friends or co-workers that are high acheivers that we don't trust as far as we can spit?