I Don't Trust the Shanahans

[drtdrums]

Oldfan,

 

This isn't a "debate" so there's nothing for anyone to rebut. It's just you not trusting the Shanahans, which is fine and dandy with probably everyone here. It doesn't bother me, because I understand how the doctor, the coaches, and the player can all be wrong in the same situation while still wanting the best for each of the other men involved.

 

You trusting them simply can't be influenced by me or anyone else.

 

As for why I trust Mike...

 

There are 13 men in the entire history of the world who have won multiple super bowls. He's one of 'em.

[Oldfan]

nemo --- i'm 100% ok with it being a player's, errrrr...a grown man's decision on whether or not he plays when injured, a'la Kobe Bryant. 

 

The coach has the final say. The buck stops with him. Making decisions is what he is paid to do.

[London Kev]

 

LondonKev -- I have no counter. I believe that Shanahan was at fault for RG3 staying on the field too long. I also think that Robert himself was at fault. Maybe the team doctors should shoulder some responsibility as well.

 

In what way Robert at fault?

 

You seem to believe that Shanahan hasn't learned from his mistakes and can't be trusted.

 

Another poster twisting my words to come up with an argument he can handle.

 

It appears as though you relish the "Me against the Rest of the World" type stance. Like I said before, let it go.

 

 

The poster attacks me, not my argument.

 

 

Lol, you are good, I'll give you that. OK, I'll play.

 

RG3 was injured, he knew that he was injured. Playing hurt is what men do, playing injured, when you can't perform, is dumb. It hurts you and it hurts the team. Robert could have taken himself off the field.

 

You called the thread "I don't trust the Shanahans" How am I twisting your words?

 

Hardly an attack, more an observation. (that last one one of yours was particularly clever by the way.  )

[Oldfan]

drtdrums: Oldfan, This isn't a "debate" so there's nothing for anyone to rebut.

 

I made arguments which you and other posters haven't even tried to rebut. I agree there's no debate. I can't force you to engage. However, the fact that you are unwilling speaks for itself.

[RG3Hunna]

We don't deserve the Shanahans, we deserve Jim Zorn. This guy has 3 superbowl rings and we're bashing the guy because he disrespects us fans and doesn't tell us the truth? Bill Belichick doesn't give information to his fans or the media do you think pat fans want to run him out of town for that? Let me remind you of what our franchise was like before Shanahan got here. 

 

 

Mike Shanahan is an old school coach they don't give out ANY information. If the media asks them what color is the sky they'll say purple not because they enjoy lying it's because that's how they have been trained. The guy doesn't even use twitter, emails or texts and you expect him to all of a sudden open up and give truthful info when he hasn't opened up for 20 plus years?

 

RG3 does bear the burden/responsibility of his injury, he can slide and avoid contact like Russell Wilson and Kaepernick do. It's like some of you guys love RG3 so much you're willing to blame someone else for something even when it's his fault. Kaep and Wilson show the read option doesn't get you hurt if you slide properly. 

 

Jim Zorn opened up to the media and the post LOVED his press conferences, they could always get a funny soundbite or insider info from zorn and it's no coincidence that Zorn was and is a terrible coach. I wonder if coughlin, belichick, parcells, cowher,gruden tell their fans inside/truthful info? and I wonder if the fans of those superbowl winning teams give a rats bottom if they do? lmao

 

PS Tom Brady has been listed on the pats injury report with a shoulder injury for YEARS I wonder if their fans get bent out of shape at this blatant "Lie" disrespect towards them?

 

 

Bill Belichick giving up ZERO information in both interviews lol

[Burgold]

Burgold --- I think the counter to this is simple. It's one incident doesn't tell the whole story. I can say he made a mistake... I can even say he handled it poorly in the press, but that doesn't define him.

Robert's injury in 2012 can be described as one incident, but the Shanahan statements about it were several incidents portraying a pattern.

Why did the Shanahans call running plays for a QB that they knew or should have known was not good at protecting himself on runs?

How could Robert's being honest possibly be a problem when the effects of the knee injury were visible?

Please try answering these questions that other posters are ducking.

Because he actually was pretty good at protecting himself on planned runs. RGIII got in trouble during scrambles which by their nature are more chaotic. Runs also kept defenses more honest. It's possibly worse to give defenses a point of focus to pin their ears back against a gimpy rookie QB.

Griffin scored a nifty rushing td against Dallas after the injury that probably influenced play calling. More, the history and mythology of sports is littered with one legged heroes. Hell, you could argue that in his final Superbowl Elway played on one leg and that could have very well colored his judgement. So, it wasn't an untrustworthy decision. Just a bad one.

[Oldfan]

RG3 was injured, he knew that he was injured. Playing hurt is what men do, playing injured, when you can't perform, is dumb. It hurts you and it hurts the team. Robert could have taken himself off the field.

 

It's not the player's decision to make. He can't be blamed if it's not his responsibility. It would be different if we were talking about an internal injury. In that case, the coach must rely on what the player tells him. But, we are talking about a knee injury that obviously has the player hobbling.

 

You called the thread "I don't trust the Shanahans" How am I twisting your words?

 

The thread title didn't claim that the Shanahans can't learn from mistakes.

[ArmchairRedskin]

I trust the Shanahans implicitly going forward. I think the franchise is in good hands with Bruce and Mike. I love the scouting department and I think there is the potential to do something special in the next decade or so. I'm just gonna sit back and enjoy the ride. 

[Mahons21]

Hahaha, I think we might be neck and neck for least liked member on this board OF.

 

As far as this thread goes, you know from our past debates that I will defend MS to the end, I'm one of his biggest fans and have supported literally every move he's made since he's been here.  IMO he's one of the brightest offensive minds currently in the NFL, and a great offensive talent evaluator to boot.  Furthermore, he understands what it takes for a team to win, he doesn't ignore depth, and is willing to take blue collar players over sexy picks.

 

With all that being said, you have somewhat of a point in this thread. 

 

Most recently he's begun to make fans believe that his Qb is actually safer with the r/o being part of the playbook. 

 

BTW, Keim is about to come on Cooley's new show at 630 on 980 AM, should be worth a listen.

[JDCELTIX33]

I say the football season can't start soon enough. Holy Moly!

[Boss_Hogg]

I guess we should stage another fan revolt and demand Snyder bring back the old regime.

 

[RG3Hunna]

A coach who was on ESPN's top 20 coaches of all time list, who has 3 superbowl rings and a bunch of players he's put in the hall of fame telling us that the read option makes the QB safer and yet we have some fans without a morsel of NFL experience/coaching knowledge telling him he's wrong? LMAO

[ArmchairRedskin]

i wonder why if the RO is so detrimental to QB's, that so many teams are looking to incorporate it into their offense this year. 

 

All the coaches must be idiots who don't understand how offenses work. 

[RG3Hunna]

i wonder why if the RO is so detrimental to QB's, that so many teams are looking to incorporate it into their offense this year. 

 

All the coaches must be idiots who don't understand how offenses work. 

LMAO EXACTLY!!!! So many teams are incorporating read option looks but I wonder why I mean some ES posters said it gets QB's hurt. lmao

[RG3Hunna]

Oldfan was admiring the bears organization how they're so upfront with news and posted this article on why they drafted Kyle Long.

 

http://blogs.suntimes.com/bears/2013/04/q_a_bears_gm_phil_emery_on_og_.html

 

Yet here goes the bears organization you hail with praise sending mixed signals/blatant lies to their fans/media about the read option?

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/07/31/bears-send-mixed-signals-on-read-option/

 

LMAO 

[Oldfan]

Hunna --- Mike Shanahan is an old school coach they don't give out ANY information. 

 

Mike's given out plenty of information on Robert's 2012 injury. Most of it shifting the blame to Robert and implying that his role was minimal. He admits to being at fault for trusting the lying RG3.

Burgold: Because he actually was pretty good at protecting himself on planned runs.

RGIII for in trouble during scrambles which by their nature are more chaotic. 

 

Robert was hit 70% of the time on planned runs and 36% of the time on scrambles. That's proof of what we fans should already know. The scrambles offer the QB open field, allowing the QB to get down or to get out of bounds.

 

Robert's ability to protect himself on runs isn't something that depends upon the kind of play. He's either good at it or he isn't. The Shanahans have been saying he isn't good at it and needs to learn to do better Still, they knew, or should have known, about their QB's weakness long before he was injured. 

 

Runs also kept defenses more honest. It's possibly worse to give defenses a point of focus to pin their ears back against a gimpy rookie QB.

 

Why does the gimpy QB have to do the running? Wouldn't the healthy RB be more effective in keeping the rushers from pinning their ears back? 

 

So, it wasn't an untrustworthy decision. Just a bad one. 

 

Decisions are never untrustworthy. It's the people who make bad decisions who often can't be trusted to accept blame. They point fingers at others. 

[Mahons21]

Teams are incorporating it because it was successful.

 

So far the teams that have:

 

SF - With a QB they invested a 2nd rd pick in

SEA - With a QB they invested a 3rd rd pick in

PHI - Who knows who their QB is, they haven't invested heavily in one

BUF - If they do, a 1st rd pick

 

WSH - A QB that cost 3 first rd picks and a 2nd.

 

Why would we not protect that investment?

 

Furthermore, do you not realize that after how things went down last season, Mike and Kyle have motives to say it protects their QB?

Oldfan was admiring the bears organization how they're so upfront with news and posted this article on why they drafted Kyle Long.

 

http://blogs.suntimes.com/bears/2013/04/q_a_bears_gm_phil_emery_on_og_.html

 

Yet here goes the bears organization you hail with praise sending mixed signals/blatant lies to their fans/media about the read option?

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/07/31/bears-send-mixed-signals-on-read-option/

 

LMAO 

 

 

You realize he was talking about Emery their GM right?

 

Do you see anything about Emery in that article?  Or is it just Trestman and Cutler?

[London Kev]

 

RG3 was injured, he knew that he was injured. Playing hurt is what men do, playing injured, when you can't perform, is dumb. It hurts you and it hurts the team. Robert could have taken himself off the field.

 

It's not the player's decision to make. He can't be blamed if it's not his responsibility. It would be different if we were talking about an internal injury. In that case, the coach must rely on what the player tells him. But, we are talking about a knee injury that obviously has the player hobbling.

 

You called the thread "I don't trust the Shanahans" How am I twisting your words?

 

The thread title didn't claim that the Shanahans can't learn from mistakes.

 

 

This is detracting from my original point, that the timing of this thread is questionable, but still.

 

The decision to play is obviously down to the HC, but the decision not to play surely involves the player as well.

 

If you think that the Shanahans can't be trusted now, doesn't that imply that you don't think that they have learned from their mistakes? If you believed that they had learned from their mistakes, then you would be more inclined to trust them now.

 

This is just semantics, you have your opinion, and I respect that, I just don't agree with you.

 

I think that such a negative thread, this close to a new season, begs for confrontation, which you seem to enjoy, (again, an observation not an attack). That, and the fact that our avitars clash, mean that I'm out of this one.

 

Enjoy your confrontation  .

[Oldfan]

Hahaha, I think we might be neck and neck for least liked member on this board OF.

 

You're bragging. You aren't even close.

[Mahons21]

With the way some of the clowns in this thread are posting, I wish I was closer hah.

 

Mike Shannahan said it in a press conference?  It must be true then.

 

How quickly people forget the Rex and Beck quote.  Was he being truthful then as well?

[KCClybun]

...Okay, **** it.

 

Well at least Oldfan is actually being honest instead of being obtuse. He doesn't like the Shanahans. That alonne should color and make you distrust...pffft, 90% of what he says about them and how they operate? But no, let's continue to pretend that Oldfan is just interested in some healthy debate instead of just trying to re-validate whatever pre-conceived notion hes already come to.

 

 

There...there is nothing to debate here. Oldfan doesn't trust the Shanahans...okay, and? I don't trust clowns. I find them creepy. Especially mimes. That's no more worthy of a thread than this.

 

 

This isn't like debating an offensive scheme or a strategy. You're battling against an opinion that was formed before the coach even got hired. This **** isn't knew. He didn't reach this conclusion just because of Mike's handling of RG3. I swear this is the second "I don't trust the Shanahans" thread I've seen.

 

 

You're mad that Shanahan isn't honest? What head coach is? Everytime McNabb or Beck and Rex are bought up (and honestly, those are the two biggest lies he's told), I ask the question "what the **** is he supposed to say?"

 

 

"We trusted Rex to run the two minute drill because he has better cardiovascular endurance than Donovan" was a big, stupid lie that hid the fact that behind the scenes, Donovan was kind of a dick. Almost immediately the story became how stupid Shanahan sounded and not how bad McNabb played and how hard to work with he was behind the scenes, and the fact we were able to bilk the Vikings out of a couple of draft picks at the time is a testament to the fact that even though he took a big, stupid lie that everyone knew was a ****ing lie, still kept the trade value of a hasbeen quarterback with an attitude problem relatively high.

 

Saying "We're concerned about McNabb's ability to learn the offense, we've tried to help him but he's not co-operating as much as we'd like" would've hurt McNabb's trade value and basically destroyed a relationship that was already on the verge of being frayed beyond repair.

 

 

"I'd stake my reputation on John Beck and Rex Grossman" was a dumb lie meant to motivate the two quarterbacks and give the fans a tiny bit of hope that one of them would pan out. Neither of them did. I don't see Goodell showing up to take away his three Super Bowl rings, nor does anyone actually remember that he said that.

 

 

 

The Seattle game is over and done with. Mike Shanahan had a responsibility in that game to pull Robert out when he saw Robert wasn't 100%. I don't pretend that it's an easy decision to take your franchise quarterback off the field in that situation, but it should've been done. Robert showed in the Ravens game that he is capable of being honest about when he can and can't blame. Robert said it himself that he was going to play as long as he was healthy enough to play, and when he wasn't healthy he pulled himself out. Robert was honest then. He wasn't second.

 

 

But yeah, sure, I'll play the game, I'll say Mike should've pulled Robert when it became clear he wasn't healthy. But man oh man, can you imagine the ****fit people would throw if Kirk Cousins comes in and they lose? Then RG3 comes out and says that he was healthy enough to play?

 

 

This whole stupid thread would be exactly the same, only the criticism would be of Mike's decision to pull RG3 when he was "healthy" instead.

 

 

And the even greater irony of a thread like this is that, while Oldfan basicall says that Mike can't be trusted with RG3's health, RG3 himself has been pushing to get on the field and has even mouthed out in the media that he felt ready to play, but Mike has straight up out and out refused to push him any further than the plan they already have.

 

 

But nope, RG3 is completely innocent. Let the kid dive head first on a scramble when the game is lost versus Carolina, let him flop out of bounds, take shots while scrambling, basically straight up refuse to actually slide. That's not Robert's fault. That's Mike's fault. 

 

 

**** me...

 

 

"I don't trust the Shanahans." Well thank God Dan Snyder doesn't give two ****s what any fans think.

 

 

And if these kinds of threads popped up with anyone else, that person would've got NNT a long time ago. But Oldfan pretends to back-up his post with "facts" (which is really just opinion with a few cherry-picked numbers) and it's "spirited debate". Screw that noise. It's borderline trolling, and if it's not that, it's one old guy loving the smell of his own farts and loving annoying a room full of people who doesn't.

 

 

Ban me, I'm already banned.

[ArmchairRedskin]

If you understand the X's and O's of the scheme then you understand the the RO actually does keep the defense at bay. It is safer for the QB.

 

Once the QB starts to run, its up to him to keep himself safe. He will have ample opportunity to slide or reach the sideline because he knows where the D players should be according to the play and he never takes his eyes off the defense. If a QB takes a hit, it is because of his judgement, not the scheme. 

 

Not to mention that the play action is a lot safer than a normal play action also due to the fact that the QB does not take his eyes off the defense, unlike a normal PA. 

 

Schematically, the RO indeed does offer the QB protection. Moreso than a normal scheme. Especially a normal scheme that features a mobile QB. Historically, the most sacked QBs have always been the most mobile ones. 

I agree, NLC. OF is not interested in having a healthy back and forth. He likes to take unpopular opinions and argue their merits against all comers. 

[Mahons21]

I understand the X's and O's of the scheme just fine.  I also understand logic, and making your QB available for hits does not make the safer, plain and simple.

[Mania]

Mahone21. Off the topic, but the rg3 trade was only 2 1s and 2nd rounder. Last year we swapped 1st rounders.

[Mahons21]

Mahone21. Off the topic, but the rg3 trade was only 2 1s and 2nd rounder. Last year we swapped 1st rounders.

 

Why aren't we including the pick we used to get him in his investment?

 

We used a 1, traded two 1's, and a 2.  That is a total of 3 1's, and a 2.