I Don't Trust the Shanahans

[Oldfan]

MLS --- Timing matters because you had about 7 months to say rather or not use trust Shanahan, but you waited until the eve of the first game of the season to do it. It's like you wanted to see what could you say to piss us off the most. And I bet you had the idea to post this thread for a while. But it seemed like you wanted to wait until the perfect time to post it.

 

As I wrote in the OP, I was prompted to write this by the Phil Emery article I read the night before which I linked. I'm heartsick that you refuse to believe that.

 

As far as me not interested in this thread, that couldn't be further from the truth. This is interesting, but not for your trust issue, but for the fact that you keep nitpicking about any issue you can find about the Redskins.

 

I don't write kool-aid for homers. You knew that before you decided to click on my thread. You came in, knowing that you weren't going to agree then you make up crap about my timing because you can't debate what I wrote.

[Rex Tomb]

thus.....

Baby please - I am not from Havana!

[LaxinFish29]

 

SpacePenguin --- It doesn't matter if you distrust the Shanahans, OF. 

 

It bothers me that Redskins fans have been sold the idea that RG3 lied to Mike and that Mike's only fault was to believe him. It bothers me that most believe that RG3 is soley responsible for his injuries because he isn't good at protecting himself. And, it bothers me that fans don't seem to be questioning the decision to put our stellar QB back out on the field wearing a brace in the first place.

 

It seemed like a good topic for discussion to me.

Where do you get the info that most believe RG3 is soley responsible?  I would argue that MOST think they are both at fault but I have no stats to back that up, so I can't.

 

Putting him back in wearing a brace is not the issue.  Lot of players wear braces and this is trending towards the other thread that says RG3 shouldn't play as long as he has to wear a brace, nonsenese.  I think fans did question why he went back in, they aren't currently questioning it because it has been covered ad nauseam...it's old news.

[daveakl]

Reminds me of the journalists who fight to see who can be more outraged about the Redskins team name. Or Sally Jenkins writting a dissenting piece about the Redskins just to be the lone voice on the other side of the coin and call attention to herself.

It stinks that you feel our FO is treating you like a fool, you don't like it, you think you can't trust them, and you find it necessary to post negatively about the team and their management.

I hope you are able to enjoy the upcoming season. It should be a fun ride and you will get more out of it (and life in general) if you focus on the positives.

HTTR

[Oldfan]

SWFL ---- The point is useless because OF's opinion won't be changed, mountains can be moved but that won't change. No matter how many come with reasonable points they won't be acknowledged and will be shot down as inconsequential, unreasonable blind homer drivel. 

 

Your post is blind homer drivel. My timing? You think it was my intent to ruin your enjoyment of a preseason football game. Do you have such a sensitive nature that you are concerned about that?

 

You criticize my timing because you can't find fault with my argument. How can you claim reasonable points were made to change my mind when you and most others didn't make an attempt? 

[CrypticVillain]

MLS --- Timing matters because you had about 7 months to say rather or not use trust Shanahan, but you waited until the eve of the first game of the season to do it. It's like you wanted to see what could you say to piss us off the most. And I bet you had the idea to post this thread for a while. But it seemed like you wanted to wait until the perfect time to post it.

As I wrote in the OP, I was prompted to write this by the Phil Emery article I read the night before which I linked. I'm heartsick that you refuse to believe that.

As far as me not interested in this thread, that couldn't be further from the truth. This is interesting, but not for your trust issue, but for the fact that you keep nitpicking about any issue you can find about the Redskins.

I don't write kool-aid for homers. You knew that before you decided to click on my thread. You came in, knowing that you weren't going to agree then you make up crap about my timing because you can't debate what I wrote.

We'll see about that...

[bedlamVR]

 

NLC --- There...there is nothing to debate here.

 

The main themes of the Shanahan refrains on their responsibility are debatable, but only if you feel up to the challenge. 

 

1. Why did the Shanahans call running plays for a QB that they knew, or should have known early on, was not good at protecting himself on runs?

 

2. How could Robert's dishonesty possibly be a problem when the effects of the knee injury were visible? It's not like it was an internal injury which required input from the QB.

 

3. Why bring such a valuable franchise asset back to play with a brace in the first place?

 

Everything is right with the world again - OF is spouting incompressible rubbish based on his half cooked reasoning and this is going to span out into a 10-13 page thread as there is the echoing as people repeatedly hit their heads against a brick wall trying to debate with OF and his minions ... OF you are not disliked - I have a theory why your threads get so much response ... you are Uncle Si from Duck Dynasty ... no one could hate or dislike you ... but your stories are listened to or read because it is a kind a sadomasochistic thing you want to know what the latest babble is going to be ... which is a shame because you know alot about football... but it seems to get lost in this off topic ranting ..

 

I had to quote this post because there is really no debating with you ... if you take point 1 -

 

Why did the Shanahans call running plays for a QB that they knew, or

should have known early on, was not good at protecting himself on runs?

 

Because they spent 4 player gambling chips to trade up to select one of the most electryfing collage football stars who was blessed with a QB computer, an amazing arm and Olympic hurdler speed ... He also has the intangables to sacrifice his body for his sport (and i will come on to this later) ... If we did not have any called runs with his make up then there would be serious and rightous questions asked about what the **** we were doing ... (pardon the french) - If he does not learn to protect himself better HIS dream of playing in the NFL is not going to be for long there is some responsibility on the player ...

 

Yeah i said it - there is some responsibility on the player - this is not Madden where the coaches are controlling the QB from the sideline with a wireless PS3 controller - the headsets the coaches have  are not also used for Call of Duty ... the player has to make smart decisions - and no I am not saying it is RGIIIs fault that he got injured but his desire to get on the field and lead HIS team overrid his safety and short term safety ...

 

And this brings me to my final point . Football players are not like us . Of all the people in the world who could play football and want to play football and have the skill to each year there are a select few who play in the NFL and they are so driven by purpose we cannot understand them, and really they cannot understand us . And don't take my word for it ... this is a snip it from a Dan Steingburg piece earlier this year when the seahawks **** storm was in full effect ..

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dc-sports-bog/wp/2013/01/22/terrell-davis-backs-mike-shanahan/

 

Terrell Davis :-

 

“I mean, we all play with a certain amount of pain. Even when we’re

injured — I’ve played in a lot of games where I had high-ankle sprains, a

stress fracture in my shin, played with basically a partially torn MCL.

So I get that we have to play with a certain amount of pain and a

certain amount of injury. I understand, that guy’s the franchise

quarterback and you want to keep him there for a long time. And I know

Mike is catching it right now. But he’s a good coach, man. I’d side with

Mike any day.”

  

Above all, what Davis said in that quote and elsewhere in the

interview confirms that NFL players are a complete different type of

person than, say, me. And probably than you, no offense. Davis kind of

attempted to thoughtfully understand where critics of Shanahan might be

coming from, but he just couldn’t get there, saying he had no reason to

suspect Shanahan was less concerned with the safety of his players than

any other NFL coach.

 

Oh one last thought - DC9 you asked a couple of pages ago - Old Fan didnt respond to your point and you asked if you won the tread ... No, No i am afraid not - no one wins, as soon as they click on a tread started by mad old uncle Si - no one wins

[Oldfan]

daveakl --- I hope you are able to enjoy the upcoming season. It should be a fun ride and you will get more out of it (and life in general) if you focus on the positives.

 

Don't presume to give advice about life in general, you pompous prick.

[DJD2]

 

daveakl --- I hope you are able to enjoy the upcoming season. It should be a fun ride and you will get more out of it (and life in general) if you focus on the positives.

 

Don't presume to give advice about life in general, you pompous prick.

 

That certainly adds to an intelligent discussion. What respect I had for you just disappeared. 

[DC9]

 

daveakl --- I hope you are able to enjoy the upcoming season. It should be a fun ride and you will get more out of it (and life in general) if you focus on the positives.

 

Don't presume to give advice about life in general, you pompous prick.

 

... really?  Personal attack, OF?

Oh one last thought - DC9 you asked a couple of pages ago - Old Fan didnt respond to your point and you asked if you won the tread ... No, No i am afraid not - no one wins, as soon as they click on a tread started by mad old uncle Si - no one wins

 

Good show, brother.

 

I agree.  It took me a while with OF, but I've found if you do indeed make logical arguments against his point he flat out ignores you.  Meh.

 

Football tonight, who cares!

[Oldfan]

LaxinFish ---- Where do you get the info that most believe RG3 is soley responsible?  

 

In recent threads I've read on the topic, the majority of posters said that. I didn't count them.

 

Putting him back in wearing a brace is not the issue.  Lot of players wear braces and this is trending towards the other thread that says RG3 shouldn't play as long as he has to wear a brace, nonsenese.  I think fans did question why he went back in, they aren't currently questioning it because it has been covered ad nauseam...it's old news.

 

I'm not leaving out an on-topic argument because you are tired of hearing about it. RG3 is a rarely gifted athlete-QB. We paid a record price in the draft for him. If there's any doubt when considering his health, it's wise to err on the side of caution. There's plenty of doubt about the value of knee braces in preventing further injury. It certainly didn't help in this case.

[MartinC]

daveakl --- I hope you are able to enjoy the upcoming season. It should be a fun ride and you will get more out of it (and life in general) if you focus on the positives.

 

Don't presume to give advice about life in general, you pompous prick.

You could have made your point above without the personal attack.

[Chachie]

If front office experience + roster stability + proven talent evaluation + draft smarts + playoff appearance - cap penalty lunacy = mediocre, then Oldfan has hit the nail on the head. I would say he missed the nail.

 

It takes time to dig out of the hole we were in. Shanny has been digging and digging and we're at least standing on the field again. Those of you who want to focus on Donovan McNabb are truly not seeing the forest behind that tree.

[ZRagone]

My favorite part of this is that he talks about "resumes" and history backing up his notion of "high level mediocrity" as the ceiling for the "Best" they can do....about a two time superbowl winning coach and a GM that got a team to a Superbowl.

 

I've been estatic about this regime thus far. Their only BIG mistake in my mind was McNabb.

 

Do they lie to the media and fans? Yes. So what? Spare me the media pity party that happens in their circles because the mean team won't give them juicy headlines to twist and skewer the team for. :roll: I don't care if you're honest or not with me as a fan, I care if you put a good product out on the field and you win.

 

Year one they did an amazing job in changing the culture. I actually liked how they handled Haynesworth as I knew then it was a long term purpose rather than short term. It showed that we're not putting up with big contract no nothings anymore, that we're not having special players who get treated massively different in practice because they're the big time free agent aquisition or buddy buddy with the owner, and that this was no longer the place to "Get paid". Year one showed that you COMPETE on this team and we need people who want to play as a TEAM not individuals. McNabb and Haynesworth both helped to illustrate this.

 

They've done an excellent job in my opinion in regards to personel moves...especially considering the handicaps they've been in the past two years. Despite the NFL's bogus penalty, the wizardy Allen did to free us from some of our ridiculously bad contracts during the lockout year was wonderful. Since then they've managed to get guys who seem to be on the upswing in potential for reasonable prices rather than over priced guys on the downside.

 

For example, many were calling for Cullen Jenkins 2 years ago when we got Stephen Bowen. Bowen's been a stout for us while Cullen Jenkins flamed out on a much larger contract with the Eagles.

 

Along with this is the notion of drafts. First, let's talk about draft picks. Shanahan's managed 34 within his first four years. Vinny's took 6 years when he came in on his second stint to total 36. If you want to look at the tail end it took him about 5 and a half drafts to reach that 34 number. Indeed, the last three years was the first time since 1993-1995 that we had three straight drafts with 7 or more draft picks.

 

Second, look at the quality and impact of the picks. Previous regimes traded up for Patrick Ramsey and Jason Campbell, while Shanahan/Allen went out and grabbed what looks to be a legitimate franchise QB. Every first round pick of the Shanahan/Allen era has become a probowler while with our team. Three of the four drafts seem to have brought us a late round starter (Riley in 4th, Morris in the 6th, and Rambo in the 6th seemingly).

 

Finally, even when we've made mistakes either as Shanahan and Allen, or due to the old regime, we make something of it. Perfect example is flipping McNabb for picks (hello Alfred Morris) and dumping Haynesworth for one as well. They've also have made other trades, outside of that first year taking over the debacle of Vinny, that were smart and provided little risk for potential boom. For instance trading away an aging backup Vinny Holiday for Hightower who would become our starting RB (till injury). Or trading Jeremy Jarmon, a guy who didn't fit the scheme and was out of the league after we traded him for Jabar Gaffney who turned out to be our top reciever in 2011.  

 

You talk about as a player you wouldn't trust Shanahan? Well I'll trust the opinions of the players playing for him now over some random guy on a message board in terms of that. This off season due to what they've built here, the culture around this team, and the trust in the coaching staff we had numerous individuals (Santana, Wilson, Carricker) volunteer to take on pay cuts,  others happy to come back at a much lower price after being cut (Hall), and still others who chose this team and this staff over others (Baker).

 

They had some rough record years while attempting to rebuild a RUIN of a franchise and roster, but three years in gave us a winning record and our first Division Crown since 1999. I have full trust in them continuing to move forward with this boat.

[chipwhich]

I also think it is part of sports.  Who didn't admire Riggins going from hospital traction to the field or even Emitt Smith marching through the playoffs on a broken arm... who didn't cheer Doug Williams coming back into the Superbowl on a bum leg and with a concussion.

What's the diffence between the above and RGIII's story?  We lost.

 

Football history is littered with stories of players who gutted it out and played when they shouldn't have.  We glorify and sometimes deify the players who do it while leading their team to victory.  We crucify and villify teams when it doesn't work.   It goes both ways too.  Jay Cutler was a selfish wimp because the Bears lost, remember. 

 

The real difference is Riggins and Smith and Williams could still perform at peak level.

Robert couldn't play anymore.  He couldn't perform.  He had no chance of gutting out a victory, and everyone watching knew it.

[NickyJ]

 

zoony --- You also started a thread called "it's okay to believe" when Vinny was appointed VP and hired Zorn

 

You've been wrong, dead wrong, in your prognosticating a lot more than you've been right over the years. A few threads ago I linked a half dozen or so of those threads directly. Iirc you claimed it was a personal attack. 

 

That you have created a board persona of some sort of football guy because you pass off FOS ideas as your own and never stop telling people how smart you are seems to have worked for so many casual posters, who you so often deride as being wrong, except when they tell you you're smart. You're all ears then.

zoony my stalker-moderator strikes again! zoony gets his ass kicked every time we have engaged in debate over the years. That explains the hate.

 

I mean, figure it out. Why is he the one bearing the grudge?

 

[KCClybun]

Oldfan calls someone a prick and doesn't get **** for it?

Yeah, sounds about right.

[Oldfan]

 

 

daveakl --- I hope you are able to enjoy the upcoming season. It should be a fun ride and you will get more out of it (and life in general) if you focus on the positives.

 

Don't presume to give me advice about life in general, you pompous prick.

 

That certainly adds to an intelligent discussion. What respect I had for you just disappeared. 

[KCClybun]

I also think it is part of sports.  Who didn't admire Riggins going from hospital traction to the field or even Emitt Smith marching through the playoffs on a broken arm... who didn't cheer Doug Williams coming back into the Superbowl on a bum leg and with a concussion.

What's the diffence between the above and RGIII's story?  We lost.

 

Football history is littered with stories of players who gutted it out and played when they shouldn't have.  We glorify and sometimes deify the players who do it while leading their team to victory.  We crucify and villify teams when it doesn't work.   It goes both ways too.  Jay Cutler was a selfish wimp because the Bears lost, remember. 

 

The real difference is Riggins and Smith and Williams could still perform at peak level.

Robert couldn't play anymore.  He couldn't perform.  He had no chance of gutting out a victory, and everyone watching knew it.

Williams gimped his way through the entire second part of that game. It was clear he wasn't healthy, and if he didn't have the best o-line in football it would've been even more obvious.

You honestly think if we had lost that Super Bowl, Gibbs wouldn't have taken any **** for not putting Shroeder in? That's is extremely naive, to say the least.

If Robert drives us down the field and scores a touchdown on a bad wheel and we win that game and Kirk starts versus Atlanta the next week, no one is ****ing. Winning solves everything.

[RG3Hunna]

I also think it is part of sports.  Who didn't admire Riggins going from hospital traction to the field or even Emitt Smith marching through the playoffs on a broken arm... who didn't cheer Doug Williams coming back into the Superbowl on a bum leg and with a concussion.

What's the diffence between the above and RGIII's story?  We lost.

 

Football history is littered with stories of players who gutted it out and played when they shouldn't have.  We glorify and sometimes deify the players who do it while leading their team to victory.  We crucify and villify teams when it doesn't work.   It goes both ways too.  Jay Cutler was a selfish wimp because the Bears lost, remember. 

 

The real difference is Riggins and Smith and Williams could still perform at peak level.

Robert couldn't play anymore.  He couldn't perform.  He had no chance of gutting out a victory, and everyone watching knew it.

Why couldn't he? He did it in baltimore when he marched us down the field with deep bullet passes until he couldn't walk anymore. Everyone knew robert couldn't wield us down the field After the game when we lost because hindsight is 20/20. If we would have benched robert after we were up 14-0 and cousins would have lost the game there would be people screaming "See I told you shanahan is a racist" lol. Fans always have to find someone to blame why they lost "The Game". 

[Oldfan]

Bedlam --- Why did the Shanahans call running plays for a QB that they knew, or

should have known early on, was not good at protecting himself on runs?

 

Because they spent 4 player gambling chips to trade up to select one of the most electryfing collage football stars who was blessed with a QB computer, an amazing arm and Olympic hurdler speed ... He also has the intangables to sacrifice his body for his sport (and i will come on to this later) ... 

 

If we did not have any called runs with his make up then there would be serious and rightous questions asked about what the **** we were doing ... (pardon the french) -

 

That's it? In Mike Shanahan's shoes, you would start the seaon with a batch of running plays even though you know your high-priced rookie doesn't protect himself well on runs because you were afraid to answer serious questions? 

 

If he does not learn to protect himself better HIS dream of playing in the NFL is not going to be for long there is some responsibility on the player ...

 

And what about the Shanahan responsibility for Robert's health? Why do you omit him from your statement of responsibility?

 

Yeah i said it - there is some responsibility on the player -

 

Of course there is, but it's the Shanahan responsibility that's the issue raised by the OP.

 

And this brings me to my final point . Football players are not like us ...

 

Football players have to learn to play with pain, certainly. But, that does not include foolishly taking risks with a player's career. That's just plainly stupid.

[Oldfan]

If front office experience + roster stability + proven talent evaluation + draft smarts + playoff appearance - cap penalty lunacy = mediocre, then Oldfan has hit the nail on the head. I would say he missed the nail.

 

It takes time to dig out of the hole we were in. Shanny has been digging and digging and we're at least standing on the field again. Those of you who want to focus on Donovan McNabb are truly not seeing the forest behind that tree.

 

Your post had nothing to do with the argument made in the OP.

[darrelgreenie]

For example, many were calling for Cullen Jenkins 2 years ago when we got Stephen Bowen. Bowen's been a stout for us while Cullen Jenkins flamed out on a much larger contract with the Eagles.

Just a quick spot check here, to avoid revisionist history.

 

Bowen's contract: 5/27.5

Jenkins; 5/25 he then restructed after year 1

 

Production:

Jenkins: 66 tackles 9.5 sacks 1 def 1 FF

Bowen: 66 tackles 7 sacks 4 def 0 FF

 

Jenkins contract was not a much larger contract. Jenkins had better numbers then Bowen therefore did not 'flame out'

[RG3Hunna]

For example, many were calling for Cullen Jenkins 2 years ago when we got Stephen Bowen. Bowen's been a stout for us while Cullen Jenkins flamed out on a much larger contract with the Eagles.

Just a quick spot check here, to avoid revisionist history.

 

Bowen's contract: 5/27.5

Jenkins; 5/25 he then restructed after year 1

 

Production:

Jenkins: 66 tackles 9.5 sacks 1 def 1 FF

Bowen: 66 tackles 7 sacks 4 def 0 FF

 

Jenkins contract was not a much larger contract. Jenkins had better numbers then Bowen therefore did not 'flame out'

Bowen was a back up DE who has overachieved in production with us. Cullen Jenkins was thought of as an elite talent at his position and he is no longer with Philadelphia because his production though very solid was not as "ELITE" as Philadelphia thought. 

 

It's like Alderick Robinson catching 60 balls for 900 yards 3 TD's and Steve Smith catching 60 balls for 900 yards and 3 TDs , not terrible numbers by any stretch however for Alderick it's impressive and for steve smith it's very mediocre. lol

 

But yea I agree jenkins didn't flame out but I guess his numbers just didn't fit with perception of his elite talent. 

[Rudechain]

 

daveakl --- I hope you are able to enjoy the upcoming season. It should be a fun ride and you will get more out of it (and life in general) if you focus on the positives.

 

Don't presume to give advice about life in general, you pompous prick.

Brilliant comeback there OF.  

 

Just the epitome of intelligent debate.