***2021-2022 NBA Season Thread***

[Predicto]

Magic has already stated that Kobe is the greatest Laker ever. That eliminates at least 3 off your list.

Shaq ? Nope not even close. Dominant yes, greatest no. He is not even in the top 3 big men.

 

 

I love Magic, but Magic says lots of stupid stuff.   He hypes whatever he is interested in hyping at the time.   

 

Ummm, you are correct that Shaq is not in the top 3 big men.   That is why I had Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem and Russell ahead of him on that list I just gave you.    

[Kosher Ham]

So the man who was the greatest Laker of all time passes the throne to Kobe, accepts that, and you deem that as stupid ?

 

Come on man.

Kobe is easily top ten.

 

Kareem and Hakeem are certainly top 5. Russell and Wilt are both overrated, Shaq is overrated.

Oscar is top 5 also.

Bird has slipped a tad...still top ten though.

LeBron...carried a scrub franchise to the finals, top ten though.

Dr J. was a very good player...but not even above players like Garnett or Melo at this point.

[PeterMP]

Magic has already stated that Kobe is the greatest Laker ever. That eliminates at least 3 off your list.

Shaq ? Nope not even close. Dominant yes, greatest no. He is not even in the top 3 big men.

And Kobe said Jerry West was the greatest Laker.

 

(Realistically, it is a stupid argument because other than somebody like Jordan, everybody is going to point to somebody else so that they appear humble.)

 

And Shaq and Kareem both have significant portions of their career as a non-Laker.

 

Kareem is a 3XNBA MVP before even joining the Lakers.

 

O'Neil has 3 NBA final appearances (and the 1 championship) independent of the Lakers.

 

When you talk about the "greatest Laker", the 3 NBA MVPs Kareem has before joining them isn't relevant, but when it comes to where Kareem belongs on the GOAT list, it certainly does.

 

On another note, when talking about Duncan and building around a big man, you can't ignore the fact that in his prime Duncan was likely the best defensive player in the game.

 

If Duncan was an average offensive big, he's still a HOF based on his defense.  Is Okafor going to become that good of a defensive player? I don't know, but I don't have to make the decision of what to him with him today.

 

Bynum won a championship, but he MAY have been the 4th best player on the team (with Gasol, Odom, and Kobe all on that team too).

 

Hibbert has only had 3 winning seasons in the NBA, and he's never played in a championship, and on the best teams he's been part of he MAY have been the 3rd best player on those teams.

 

(On a side note, this got me thinking about Curry and GS.  It is unusual, IMO, to have a championship team that has a clear "best" player where that player is not a great offensive and defensive player.  And I don't think Curry is a great defensive player.  I think it says something about the "great" NBA players today and the nature of specialization in the modern NBA.  I also think it says something about Curry.  Curry might be the best scorer in the NBA currently and the best passer.  I think that combination is rare.)

Edited December 1, 2015 by PeterMP

[Destino]

If Duncan was average offensively we wouldn't be talking about him.  He'd be Dikembe Mutombo without the schtick. 

 

Am I reading this right, Duncan has never been the DPOY and was selected to less defensive 1st teams than Kobe?  Wouldn't have guessed that. 

[Kosher Ham]

Kobe is a current player and has never tried to take the shine off of Laker greats, nor should he.

Duncan isn't really in the conversation, he is easily top ten also.

 

If you read my post above yours, I clearly put 3 of his top eleven in the top 5.

 

Curry does not yet have the years under his belt to include him in the top ten. He is however top 5 in the league right now.

[Dr. Do Itch Big]

Top 2 right now.

[Predicto]

 

 

(On a side note, this got me thinking about Curry and GS.  It is unusual, IMO, to have a championship team that has a clear "best" player where that player is not a great offensive and defensive player.  And I don't think Curry is a great defensive player.  I think it says something about the "great" NBA players today and the nature of specialization in the modern NBA.  I also think it says something about Curry.  Curry might be the best scorer in the NBA currently and the best passer.  I think that combination is rare.)

 

 

Defense has changed too.   The point's primary job nowadays is not to play one on one defense, because no one plays one on one basketball anymore (except James Harden lol).  It is more important for the point to fight over screens effectively, close on outside shooters, and when they drive, channel them toward the rim protectors and away from open space.  It is also important to obstruct passing lanes to disrupt the offensive rhythm.  

 

When Curry came into the league, he was a below average defensive player, but that is no longer the case.  He still isn't as good as Chris Paul, but he is well above average in all defensive metrics.   Second best PG in defensive real plus minus last year.   Although grabbing steals is a bit overrated, he's second in the league in steals per 48 mins.  

 

"According to NBA.com, Curry’s defensive assignments shot 4.5 percent worse than they did throughout the season when they were defended by Curry. Perhaps more impressively, they shot 12.2 percent worse from behind the arc when Curry was the defender."  

 

http://bluemanhoop.com/2015/10/04/does-stephen-curry-really-chill-on-defense/

[Going Commando]

1. Jordan

2. Russell

3. Kareem

4. Magic

5. LeBron

6. Bird

7. Wilt

8. Oscar

9. Duncan

10. Hakeem

11. Moses

I can see putting Kobe at 12, ahead of Shaq. And I think he's solidly ahead of Karl Malone and Dr. J, who is hurt by the fact that half his career was in the ABA. But I can't see putting him ahead of anyone else in that top eleven. Shaq was, without a doubt, a better/more dominant/more valuable player at his peak than Kobe. But Shaq was also lazy and goofy and didn't come close to maximizing his talent and reaching his potential, or performing at a peak level for a long time. Kobe did. If Shaq had Kobe's competitive drive, he probably could have challenged Russell and Kareem for second or third greatest player ever.

Kareem is the greatest player to ever don a Lakers jersey, followed by Magic, then followed by Wilt. Magic is the greatest Laker though, followed by Kobe, followed by Elgin Baylor, followed by Jerry West.

Kobe will go down as the greatest guard of his era and the second greatest SG in NBA history, ahead of Jerry West and Dwyane Wade. Surprisingly, the history of the SG position isn't that extensive or storied. Jordan, Magic, and Isiah revolutionized the back court positions. Prior to the 80's you had lead guards, like West, who were not as specialized as the PGs and SGs that popped up starting in the 80s.

Kobe's argument for greatness is based on volume and competitiveness/attitude. He'd been the league's alpha player for a long time between Jordan and LeBron, but he's never truly been a transcendent player. You couldn't build a team around just him and have his play elevate you to 50+ win stature like with the transcendent players. His peak lasted an admirably long time. He's performed at a higher level for longer than probably any other player of his generation. But his peak was not as high as the peaks from Duncan, Garnett, Dirk, Shaq, LeBron, Durant, and Curry. And because of that, there's never been a point in Kobe's career where you can point to him and say he was definitely the best player in the league that season. From the late 90's until 2001, the league's best player was Shaq. From 2002-2003, it was Duncan. From 2004-2005, it was KG. From 2006-2007 it was Dirk. From 2008-2012, it was LeBron. In 2013-2014 it was Durant. And now in 2015 it's Curry.

Kobe will probably finish higher on the hierarchy than most of those guys other than LeBron and Duncan because his peak level of play lasted so much longer than Dirk's and KG's and Shaq's. But it dings Kobe in comparison to the truly transcendent players like Jordan/Kareem/Russell/Wilt/Magic/Bird who were both the preeminent player of the league for a time in their era, and they had long careers full of championships and MVPs.

[Kosher Ham]

Russell wasn't better than Kareem and Wilt certainly was not better than Duncan.

 

I could argue that Bird isn't better than Oscar either.

If any player was a matchup nightmare and dominated regardless...it was Kareem.

I wouldn't even compare Wade to Kobe. That's a lopsided debate.

[Predicto]

Russell wasn't better than Kareem and Wilt certainly was not better than Duncan.

 

I could argue that Bird isn't better than Oscar either.

If any player was a matchup nightmare and dominated regardless...it was Kareem.

I wouldn't even compare Wade to Kobe. That's a lopsided debate.

 

 

True.   Wade was more efficient.    

1. Jordan

2. Russell

3. Kareem

4. Magic

5. LeBron

6. Bird

7. Wilt

8. Oscar

9. Duncan

10. Hakeem

11. Moses

I can see putting Kobe at 12, ahead of Shaq. And I think he's solidly ahead of Karl Malone and Dr. J, who is hurt by the fact that half his career was in the ABA. But I can't see putting him ahead of anyone else in that top eleven. Shaq was, without a doubt, a better/more dominant/more valuable player at his peak than Kobe. But Shaq was also lazy and goofy and didn't come close to maximizing his talent and reaching his potential, or performing at a peak level for a long time. Kobe did. If Shaq had Kobe's competitive drive, he probably could have challenged Russell and Kareem for second or third greatest player ever.

Kareem is the greatest player to ever don a Lakers jersey, followed by Magic, then followed by Wilt. Magic is the greatest Laker though, followed by Kobe, followed by Elgin Baylor, followed by Jerry West.

Kobe will go down as the greatest guard of his era and the second greatest SG in NBA history, ahead of Jerry West and Dwyane Wade. Surprisingly, the history of the SG position isn't that extensive or storied. Jordan, Magic, and Isiah revolutionized the back court positions. Prior to the 80's you had lead guards, like West, who were not as specialized as the PGs and SGs that popped up starting in the 80s.

Kobe's argument for greatness is based on volume and competitiveness/attitude. He'd been the league's alpha player for a long time between Jordan and LeBron, but he's never truly been a transcendent player. You couldn't build a team around just him and have his play elevate you to 50+ win stature like with the transcendent players. His peak lasted an admirably long time. He's performed at a higher level for longer than probably any other player of his generation. But his peak was not as high as the peaks from Duncan, Garnett, Dirk, Shaq, LeBron, Durant, and Curry. And because of that, there's never been a point in Kobe's career where you can point to him and say he was definitely the best player in the league that season. From the late 90's until 2001, the league's best player was Shaq. From 2002-2003, it was Duncan. From 2004-2005, it was KG. From 2006-2007 it was Dirk. From 2008-2012, it was LeBron. In 2013-2014 it was Durant. And now in 2015 it's Curry.

Kobe will probably finish higher on the hierarchy than most of those guys other than LeBron and Duncan because his peak level of play lasted so much longer than Dirk's and KG's and Shaq's. But it dings Kobe in comparison to the truly transcendent players like Jordan/Kareem/Russell/Wilt/Magic/Bird who were both the preeminent player of the league for a time in their era, and they had long careers full of championships and MVPs.

 

 

Except for some quibbling about Shaq and your shameful overrating of Bill Russell   , I pretty much agree with you.

[Kosher Ham]

I do remember Wade being the league MVP...

I also remember him playing defense, occasionally.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

I would definitely say Kobe was the best player in the league during his 81pt season 05 or 06 whichever it was. You can argue other seasons too.

He took a pretty **** team that year into the playoffs and would have knocked off the 1 seed Suns had Odom been able to grab a rebound in game 6.

When he hit the game winner to take a 3-1 lead...I think you'd have been hard pressed to find someone that thought there was a better player. He should have won MVP that season too.

Now I'm going to leave before all the Kobe bashing and Jon Hollingers step in.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Momma There Goes That Man

[Going Commando]

I think 05-06 is one of the only seasons of Kobe's career where you can make a decent case he was the best player in the league. I do think there is something to be said for being able to carry a load that Kobe did that season. 38% usage is crazy.

But Dirk was better that year. His level of play was better on both ends and it contributed far more to team success than Kobe's, and he is the one who should have won the MVP.

[Kosher Ham]

Which years did Nash win ?

Kobe should have won at least one of those...I am thinking the second year.

[CRobi21]

Paul George bout to be mentioned in the same company as Curry. Dudes taken his game to the next level.

[Sticksboi05]

Magic has already stated that Kobe is the greatest Laker ever. That eliminates at least 3 off your list.

Shaq ? Nope not even close. Dominant yes, greatest no. He is not even in the top 3 big men.

 

Yeah and I'm sure Wayne Gretzky has called plenty of players better than him over the years - but that doesn't make it true. Also no GM ever drafts Kobe over Shaquille O'Neal. I wouldn't draft Kobe over any of the players Predicto listed. Maybe Bird but not because of the skill set, because of health concerns, though if Bird played now, his health would've been better managed and he probably lasts 12-14 years instead of 9.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Sticksboi05

[Sticksboi05]

I would definitely say Kobe was the best player in the league during his 81pt season 05 or 06 whichever it was. You can argue other seasons too.

He took a pretty **** team that year into the playoffs and would have knocked off the 1 seed Suns had Odom been able to grab a rebound in game 6.

When he hit the game winner to take a 3-1 lead...I think you'd have been hard pressed to find someone that thought there was a better player. He should have won MVP that season too.

Now I'm going to leave before all the Kobe bashing and Jon Hollingers step in.

 

Definitely his best case for MVP. The year he actually won, LeBron should've won in a blowout per usual. I don't see why we can call out other players for being volume shooters but when we accurately call out Kobe it's a crime. Efficiency matters. So does distributing the basketball. 

 

LeBron is the prime example.

[Going Commando]

Which years did Nash win ?

Kobe should have won at least one of those...I am thinking the second year.

Nash won in 04-05 and 05-06.

In 04-05, KG was still the best individual player in the league and he led the league in PER and win shares. The reason he didn't win the MVP is because Minnesota was only 44-38. The next two best individual players that season were Duncan and Dirk. Dirk had a pretty strong case, second in win shares and seventh in PER, but the Mavs finished third in wins in the West. The MVP almost always goes to a player from a team that's top two in wins in their conference.

That's ultimately why Nash won. He was the leader of the one seed. It's not an egregious selection because he was pretty worthy by the traditional criteria of the MVP award. But Amar'e Stoudemire was also one of the top MVP candidates that year, whereas KG, Duncan, and Dirk didn't play with another guy nearly as good as Amar'e was.

But Kobe definitely didn't deserve to win MVP that year. The Lakers won 34 games and he was 11th in PER and 31st in win shares.

In 05-06, Dirk should have won the award. He tied for the league lead in PER and led in Win Shares, and the Mavs won 60 games. But the Mavs were the four seed, even though they actually had the second most wins in the conference. Meanwhile Nash was the leader of the two seed Suns, who only won 54. That's why Nash got it. The 64 win Pistons and 63 win Spurs didn't really field strong MVP candidates, even though Duncan and Billups had excellent seasons. But their numbers weren't better than Dirk's and they played with far superior surrounding talent.

Under the current seeding system, Dallas would have been the two seed. At that point, Dirk was the best player in the league and was the leader and sole star of what should have been a top two seed, and he would have won it under those conditions. Dirk also led his team to the Finals that year, beating Nash's Suns and Duncan's Spurs in the process.

That year was one of Kobe's best cases for the MVP, but his case wasn't better than Dirk's. Or even LeBron's for that matter. Kobe's argument was based on high quality on huge workload, but that doesn't trump Dirk's argument of slightly superior play leading to far more team success.

[Going Commando]

Definitely his best case for MVP. The year he actually won, LeBron should've won in a blowout per usual. I don't see why we can call out other players for being volume shooters but when we accurately call out Kobe it's a crime. Efficiency matters. So does distributing the basketball. 

 

LeBron is the prime example.

I actually think CP3 should have won MVP in 08. I get that Kobe's award was a bit of a lifetime achievement award, and he had a pretty good case. He was the leader of the one seed Lakers and Kobe was fourth in win shares.

But CP3 was the leader of the two seed Hornets, who finished one win behind the Lakers. He was just behind LeBron in PER with a 28.3 PER (absolutely crazy for a pass first PG) and led the league in win shares with 17.8. In general, a 17+ win share season has been MVP caliber and holds it's own in comparison with the best seasons of most of the NBA's all time greats.

Plus the Cavs only won 45 games that year. If team success is to matter (and it does), and KG gets snubbed for an 18+ win share season in 04-05 because his team only won 44 games, and Kobe isn't a serious candidate the next year despite a 15 WS season because his team won 45, then LeBron should not have won it under the same circumstances.

CP3 was unbelievably good that year. Arguably the best individual player in the league (LeBron might have been a wee bit better), that New Orleans team wasn't all that great. And he was putting up triple doubles left and right, powering the Hornets to go neck and neck for the one seed in the far more difficult conference. That year the West had eight 50 win teams. And the Lakers were dominant after they traded for Pau Gasol, and CP3 was able to keep pace with them. So CP3's season in that context is more impressive than LeBron's.

I think CP3's worthiness that year gets forgotten about because he tore his meniscus the next season and experienced a pretty steep decline in his individual level of play from there on out. At that point, he reached a peak level of performance equal to or better than Magic's, and could have gone down as the best PG in NBA history if he'd sustained it. I remember everyone discussing him in those terms at the time. But he didn't, and so he won't. Meanwhile LeBron did sustain his level of play in subsequent seasons (and even got better), so he's remembered more favorably.

Edited December 1, 2015 by stevemcqueen1

[mcsluggo]

well.. there are tons of players tat just didn't stay healthy enough... it is another one of the wonders of players like Jordan, Kobe and Lebron.  THey put up that sort of play day in and day out, year after year, without breaking down.

 

then you have the Penny Hardaways and Grant Hills and D. Rose players... and even the Dwyane Wades.... their bodies betray them, and they are mostly forgotten

[Predicto]

CP3 was unbelievably good that year. Arguably the best individual player in the league (LeBron might have been a wee bit better), 

 

 

He was great, but yes, LeBron was better.   LeBron has been the best overall player in the association since his third year or so.   In reality, he probably still is, last year when Curry and Harden were the MVP finalists.   I guess you can't give MVP to the same guy for a decade straight, but LeBron is the transcendent talent of our time in the same way that Jordan was in his time.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I go away for a week, and McQueen responds by listing all time greats again.

 

I just assume he sits in front of Excel spreadsheets all day moving Joe Dumars name up and down...up and down.....

The Warriors are going to lose to the Nets. You will all pay me a dollar when it happens.

[Predicto]

I go away for a week, and McQueen responds by listing all time greats again.

 

I just assume he sits in front of Excel spreadsheets all day moving Joe Dumars name up and down...up and down.....

The Warriors are going to lose to the Nets. You will all pay me a dollar when it happens.

 

 

Actually, they probably will lose to Toronto before that.   Not because Toronto is that good, but because Toronto's iso-heavy offense seems strangely effective against the Warrior's defense.  They are getting tired and there is no way they are coming out of this 7 game road trip without a couple of losses.    

[Destino]

Predicto loves to sell Curry short. I think he's worried about jinxing him. Curry set records last year while being featured as the best player on the best team. His season mattered for the record books and changed the conversation surrounding him from "great shooter" to "best shooter the game has ever seen".

I don't think people realize just how big last season was for Curry. Let's talk shoes and cash. Durant got a 10 year $300 million dollar deal from nike. He is on a max deal with OKC of course. Rose is on a 13 year $185 million dollar deal with Adidas and had a rule put in place so that young MVPs like him could sign larger deals with their teams. Curry signed a less than max deal with his team and left Nike because Under Armor offered him 4 million a year, and Nike wouldn't go over 2.5. Curry was a player that was known more for looking like a giant child and having as ankles than anything else.

Last year happened. He set new records in 3 point shooting and did an absurd amount of it unassisted and off the dribble. That's not a small thing and it's still under appreciated. His team won a title and the Warriors became the team everyone in the basketball universe wanted to watch. The finals set ratings records, and it wasn't because people suddenly wanted to watch Lebron more than they had the previous three years. Under Armor went from a non factor in basketball shoe sales, to number 2, passing Adidas.

Curry became a superstar, both in terms of game and fame, and deserved that MVP. Lebron didn't have anything approaching the year Curry did.

[Mr. Sinister]

I go away for a week, and McQueen responds by listing all time greats again.

I just assume he sits in front of Excel spreadsheets all day moving Joe Dumars name up and down...up and down.....

The Warriors are going to lose to the Nets. You will all pay me a dollar when it happens.

You should bet a small island with Predicto...