Hersh Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 I don't blame him for making his money this year, but he is one of the worst starting players in the league this year. Maybe he hits a couple more shots tonight but last check he was 2-17. This is two games removed from a 1-14 night. I know guys decline, but this is falling off a cliff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosher Ham Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 A steep cliff. I think he has finally realized that he is afraid of getting another injury. Can't play the game afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamebreaker Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 I know his ego would never allow him to do this, but he should offer to come off the bench and work towards mentoring the young players on the team. If he really cares about the Lakers and their future he'd be doing with KG is trying to do for the T'Wolves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 (edited) I love Kobe. "I work really hard even though I play like ****" Lmao Edited November 30, 2015 by Momma There Goes That Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 The first class of great players for me was the guys on the 1994 and 1996 Team USA rosters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sticksboi05 Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Shame to see an all-time great go out like this. Kobe is probably a top 10 player ever. I've got him around 8-10 all-time and the best of his era besides Timmy. Up until this season his longevity was the most impressive part of his resume. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonArtest15 Posted November 30, 2015 Author Share Posted November 30, 2015 I mean, we all knew the day was coming. I'm glad he finally announced it, because he looks absolutely terrible this year. As bad as he and the lakers are, the last thing I want to see happen is for Kobe to get a season ending injury. I want this farewell tour to play out as it should. All that being said, don't be surprised if the Lakers get the #1 overall next year and take Ben Simmons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hersh Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Better the Lakers than the 76ers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 All that being said, don't be surprised if the Lakers get the #1 overall next year and take Ben Simmons. And don't be surprised if that front office trades that pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Ben Simmons is definitely going to be the #1 pick. The only thing that could prevent that inevitability is if he tears both ACLs. My question is how does he fit with Russell and Randle? Would they need to trade one of those guys if they got the #1 pick? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 I'm in here late, but I kind of agree with PeterMP. I think Okafer is going to be a good NBA player, but he seems to have a relatively low ceiling, especially in the modern NBA where back to the basket post play is less valuable than it used to be in the bad old days of isos and illegal defense rules. If I have a logjam of young bigs, he is the one I would showcase and then trade, rather than trying to build my team around him. Kobe was awesome, but he was also flawed. The inefficiency of his offense is similar to Allen Iverson. If your team lets you take 30 shots a game, you are going to score a lot of points. Put Kobe straight into the HoF, but he does not rank in my top 10 all time NBA players. Tim Duncan certainly does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 I think back to the basket post play is seen as less valuable because there hasn't been a great center that could do it for a while. A dominant offensive center would allow a team with a stretch four to spread the floor without losing the ability to work the ball inside the easy way (by simply throwing it in). Someone would have to collapse to help because dominant, means a single defender can't prevent a basket. If that center can pass, you've got an open shooter in two passes and two bounces of the ball. They'd would have to be able to pass well though, when the defense sends an extra defender. They have to be the type of player willing and able to find the open man and make their team better. They also need a coach that plans for this so that they aren't looking around wondering where to go with it. Also as for Kobe, he wasn't a .500 fg% scorer but he was a great defender and early in his career he got to the rim whenever he wanted. I'm not sure if he's in my top 10 because I think bigger dominant players take up most of those slots, but he's in my top three guards. Only shooting guard I'd take over him is Jordan, who was essentially a rich mans Kobe. Their style was similar but Jordan was better at most things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sticksboi05 Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 I'm in here late, but I kind of agree with PeterMP. I think Okafer is going to be a good NBA player, but he seems to have a relatively low ceiling, especially in the modern NBA where back to the basket post play is less valuable than it used to be in the bad old days of isos and illegal defense rules. If I have a logjam of young bigs, he is the one I would showcase and then trade, rather than trying to build my team around him. Kobe was awesome, but he was also flawed. The inefficiency of his offense is similar to Allen Iverson. If your team lets you take 30 shots a game, you are going to score a lot of points. Put Kobe straight into the HoF, but he does not rank in my top 10 all time NBA players. Tim Duncan certainly does. Agree there's going to be A LOT of hyperbole the rest of this season. He's not a top 5 player ever, not the best player post- MJ (Duncan) and is the *second* greatest Laker of all-time. But he is still one of the all-time greats nonetheless. You could probably argue him out of the top 10 also to people who understand more than "titles bro". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 I'm in here late, but I kind of agree with PeterMP. I think Okafer is going to be a good NBA player, but he seems to have a relatively low ceiling, especially in the modern NBA where back to the basket post play is less valuable than it used to be in the bad old days of isos and illegal defense rules. If I have a logjam of young bigs, he is the one I would showcase and then trade, rather than trying to build my team around him. Kobe was awesome, but he was also flawed. The inefficiency of his offense is similar to Allen Iverson. If your team lets you take 30 shots a game, you are going to score a lot of points. Put Kobe straight into the HoF, but he does not rank in my top 10 all time NBA players. Tim Duncan certainly does. Having seen Iverson in person at high school and college, I can tell you he never got the props that he deserved. There are not that many 6' 160lb NBA players...and none that were as physical as he was. Yeah, he took a lot of shots. No one else was really ever there to be his Pippen. Or Thompson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Kind of remarkable looking back on hiw long he's been in the league. My ass was in 3rd grade, running from cooties. Jordan still had a couple years left with the Bulls 2Pac and Biggie were still alive Trill Bill was getting blown in the Oval Office. Hows that for a timeline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 They'd would have to be able to pass well though, when the defense sends an extra defender. They have to be the type of player willing and able to find the open man and make their team better. They also need a coach that plans for this so that they aren't looking around wondering where to go with it. Draftexpress listed Okafor's passing out of the post as a strength. http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Jahlil-Okafor-6469/ Skip to the 8:25 mark of their "strengths" video for their discussion of his passing. He's come into the league almost a fully formed post player at 19 years old. Greg Oden was a bust because of injury, so really the last player where that's been the case was probably Yao Ming in 2002, and remember, he was 22 as a rookie. Okafor is fully grown, strong enough to match up with any big in the league, and he's going to get stronger as he ages and develops his man strength. And he's got pretty much every back to basket skill you could want. The only thing he's lacking is consistency on his jumper from 15-18 feet and consistent free throw shooting. He'll develop those things in time. I think he has the potential to become the best offensive center in the NBA in a couple of seasons, and that he will be considered in the same class as Drummond and Cousins. He's going to have the size to match up with them. To me it's a no-brainer to build around him. It doesn't matter what position they play, a guy who can create most of his offense on almost 30% usage and command a double team is the foundation for your offense. Everything can be built up from around him. And a nice benefit from him is Philly won't need a dominant perimeter player or elite PG to run a good offense. Just put four shooters around him, guys who can make an entry pass into the post, and who can guard the perimeter. Role players. That'd be enough to build a quality offense. And if Philly manages to score another foundation-level player for the perimeter, that can command a double as well, then you're talking about the potential to run one of the best offenses in the NBA. I hope they end up with Ben Simmons or Brandon Ingram. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 I think back to the basket post play is seen as less valuable because there hasn't been a great center that could do it for a while. And that is because teams are allowed to defend in a way that they were not permitted to do in the past. Posting up works when you get an isolation, or an immediate double team to pass out of. In the old days is it was very predictable, because there were only two ways you were allowed to defend. Singly, or a committed double team. Now, teams can defend any way they want to, including zones and endless switches, collapse in and right back out, leave your man and cheat along the baseline, whatever you want. It's defense as chosen by the defenders rather than by the offensive player calling for a post up and getting a special situation due to the illegal defense rules. It has become much less useful to have a big strong slow post up player. You have to move super fast around the basket or the ball is going to get swatted away. Sure, it is still useful. Tim Duncan shows us that. But not as useful as it used to be. I guess what I am saying is that I think the big men now are just as good as they used to be. They are just more versatile than they used to be - because the rules favor versatility. Or more specifically, the old illegal defense rules disfavored it. In the old days, you could be a guy with half the dexterity of the Frankenstein Monster and still start at center or power forward as long as you were a brute and you worked on a few mechanical post up moves, that you would get to do without fear of being defended in an unexpected manner. We romanticize the past too much. The NBA is so much better now than it was in the 1990s and early 2000s. The league was full of big stiffs like Jon Koncak, Felton Spencer, Bill Wennington, Jim McElvaine, Uwe Blab, Greg Kite, and they sucked. To me it's a no-brainer to build around him. It doesn't matter what position they play, a guy who can create most of his offense on almost 30% usage and command a double team is the foundation for your offense. Everything can be built up from around him. And a nice benefit from him is Philly won't need a dominant perimeter player or elite PG to run a good offense. Just put four shooters around him, guys who can make an entry pass into the post, and who can guard the perimeter. Role players. That'd be enough to build a quality offense. Maybe. I dunno. I think there is a reason that none of the recent NBA champions or top contenders are built that way. The Spurs and the Warriors are built around passing and movement. Other great teams are built around transcendent multifaceted talents like LeBron or Durant. What really good team in the past 10 years has built around repeated big man post ups? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Kobe retiring. Nash, Kidd, McGrady, and Allen already retired. Iverson done a while ago. Pierce looking done soon too. KG will probably retire next year. Dirk and Duncan are still going strong, but in dramatically decreased roles from even just five years ago. Vince Carter will probably retire in the next year or two also. Yep, the end has come for that initial Post-Jordan generation of HoFers. It's sad. Came across this video and remember your post. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6k_D75yyxxA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 eh I think Kobe is solidly in the top 10. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Predicto, there haven't been dominant low post scorers to come into the NBA in almost twenty years. The clearest facsimiles to that we've actually seen (Yao Ming, Dwight Howard, Andrew Bynum) have been incredibly impactful. Hell Roy Hibbert was an All Star and almost single-handedly sunk the Heatles in both their championship seasons because of how outsized the impact of a traditional low post scoring 7 footer is, and he's not even that good. The impact of a dominant big man is huge right now because the delta of quality between the top few at the C position and the rest is huge. It's not just the rule changes that shape play, it's the skill set of the available talent. When you go from almost every incoming big man having developed a multi-faceted low post game to getting maybe one in ten, that changes style of play of the entire league. The reason players aren't as good with their back to the basket is because they aren't being taught how to do it by our current system of developing youth talent. Big forwards and centers grow up playing on the perimeter and almost all American players play for up and down AAU teams that don't run structured offense and don't teach traditional skills. South American and European bigs typically come into the league with much better fundamental skills, so it's not that the old skills are dead or irrelevant to the NBA, they're just absent in American development. And that's big because American players still make up 80% of the league. Okafor's potential and value has become a proxy debate for the usefulness of old school back to basket offense. I think it's always going to be useful for any player to be able to catch the ball, from anywhere in the half court, and create a good shot. A more interesting question about Okafor IMO is in how are teams that are built to and want to go small going to be able to successfully defend a skilled behomoth like him once he starts to enter his prime? Players like him are going to change the style of defense for a lot of teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 (edited) Ugh. Hibbert. Dude was a bumbling fool half the time then when he plays us his soul gets taken over by Wilt Chamberlain Edited November 30, 2015 by Mr. Sinister 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Predicto, there haven't been dominant low post scorers to come into the NBA in almost twenty years. The clearest facsimiles to that we've actually seen (Yao Ming, Dwight Howard, Andrew Bynum) have been incredibly impactful. Hell Roy Hibbert was an All Star and almost single-handedly sunk the Heatles in both their championship seasons because of how outsized the impact of a traditional low post scoring 7 footer is, and he's not even that good. The impact of a dominant big man is huge right now because the delta of quality between the top few at the C position and the rest is huge. It's not just the rule changes that shape play, it's the skill set of the available talent. When you go from almost every incoming big man having developed a multi-faceted low post game to getting maybe one in ten, that changes style of play of the entire league. The reason players aren't as good with their back to the basket is because they aren't being taught how to do it by our current system of developing youth talent. Big forwards and centers grow up playing on the perimeter and almost all American players play for up and down AAU teams that don't run structured offense and don't teach traditional skills. South American and European bigs typically come into the league with much better fundamental skills, so it's not that the old skills are dead or irrelevant to the NBA, they're just absent in American development. And that's big because American players still make up 80% of the league. Okafor's potential and value has become a proxy debate for the usefulness of old school back to basket offense. I think it's always going to be useful for any player to be able to catch the ball, from anywhere in the half court, and create a good shot. A more interesting question about Okafor IMO is in how are teams that are built to and want to go small going to be able to successfully defend a skilled behomoth like him once he starts to enter his prime? Players like him are going to change the style of defense for a lot of teams. I guess we just have to agree to disagree. I agree that young big men don't work on their low post moves as much as they used to, but I posit that they are doing so for good reason - those skills are less valuable than they used to be. I also posit that big men are less effective not because there are not enough of them, but because there are so many of them. You have a million power forwards that would have been centers in the past, and you have 7 foot tall small forwards now. And they all have skills. Back in the day, Patrick Ewing could use his slow deliberate moves to back down Jon Koncak one-on-one and score because 1) Jon Koncak sucked and 2) Jon Koncak's power forward was probably 6'7" and 205 with short arms and 3) the illegal defense rules made it a gimme. There were less than ten skilled big men in the whole league, so of course they dominated all the scrubs around them. We remember Hakeem, Shaq and Robinson and we forget how bad so many of the rest of them were. Hakeem and Shaq would dominate in any era. Hakeem because he could do everything, Shaq because he was so physically dominant. However, guys like Patrick Ewing who were great in that era, I'm not so sure. I suspect he probably would be just another Roy Hibbert if he played today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosher Ham Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 eh I think Kobe is solidly in the top 10. Easily. Predicto only says that because he is a Warriors fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Easily. Predicto only says that because he is a Warriors fan. Jordan Wilt LeBron Kareem Hakeem Bird Magic Russell Shaq Duncan Oscar There's eleven that are all greater than Kobe. I can't decide if Kobe goes in ahead of Karl Malone and Dr. J., or just behind them. Somewhere between 11 and 15 on my list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosher Ham Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Magic has already stated that Kobe is the greatest Laker ever. That eliminates at least 3 off your list. Shaq ? Nope not even close. Dominant yes, greatest no. He is not even in the top 3 big men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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