757SeanTaylor21 Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Would of been nice to get him for a vet min deal 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 (edited) I am a DeAndre Ayton booster, and have been since early in the process, but I have what I think is an interesting philosophical question about him: Was it worth it for Phoenix to take Ayton when they don't have a point guard? Can a transcendent center reach his potential and offer elite value on a team without good point guard play? I ask this because Predicto's old point about it now being too easy to trap the ball in the post and thus the value of the center is diminished is valid. One of the results of Ayton's summer league debut against the Mavs was that they doubled him every time he caught the ball and forced him to pass out. It's an easy, effective strategy for containing his shot making ability, and though it means his gravity is warping your defense, if the opponent doesn't have guards that can capitalize on the space that comes from a double-teamed center, then there is no harm done. Things will obviously be somewhat different when he gets to share the floor with Devin Booker, but that PG spot is a wasteland. Brandon Knight is a lousy starting PG and a sketchy contract. They don't have anyone behind him either. None of their wings are point runners. Ariza and Bridges are three and D players, Warren is a gunner, and Jackson has no offensive value whatsoever at this point. Another thing, Booker is not the best shot creator for teammates. His TOV numbers are really high for only 4.7 APG. Their offense is going to be awful again and there is no solution in-house. Ayton has the potential to be one of the best shotmakers in the league, but they're going to struggle to get the ball to him in the paint, and they're not going to be able to take advantage of his ability to command a double in the post. This is a team who is trying to get out of the lottery but they do not have the foundation in place to run even a passable NBA offense. And they will struggle to not waste Ayton and get out of the cellar until they get better PG play IMO. They should have drafted Luka Donkic. Any team who has no solution or even plan at point guard should not take the transcendent center prospect over the transcendent point guard prospect. If Donkic stays healthy, the Mavs are going to get way better, way faster than the Suns. Edited July 16, 2018 by stevemcqueen1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Bigs like Ayton are rare. Quality PGs are available every draft and every trade deadline. They made the right choice being that it’ll be much easier to get the guard play to help Ayton 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Transcendent players don’t need point guards to be great. Dynasties don’t even need traditional point guards to dominate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillUnknown Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 4 hours ago, Momma There Goes That Man said: Bigs like Ayton are rare. Quality PGs are available every draft and every trade deadline. They made the right choice being that it’ll be much easier to get the guard play to help Ayton Are they? And will it be? This draft had a whole lot of bigs in it. But not many PGs. And not many good PGs have come out in the past five+ years. It takes a special player to carry an offense and I think Ayton is going to struggle to score in volume and efficiency with what the Suns have put around him. All shot makers, no good creators. And they're getting to the point in their rebuild where they're going to try and stop picking high and stop having cap space. The fit of their foundation pieces is awkward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 3 hours ago, Destino said: Transcendent players don’t need point guards to be great. Dynasties don’t even need traditional point guards to dominate. The closest things we've had to dynasties since the NBA became perimeter-centric--Miami and GS--have had two All-Timers running point. There are very few players in the NBA who are both quality playmakers and strong scorers capable of running point. And very few elite offenses that don't have one of these guys. To run an elite offense in today's NBA without an elite point man, your wings have pretty much got to be incredible ball handlers and shot creators. The Suns are the worst offense in the NBA. How are they going to get Ayton the ball and how are they going to keep him from getting doubled? What does a transcendent center look like in today's NBA, in terms of offensive skillset? I would argue that Joel Embiid and Anthony Davis are the only ones. And they are basically guards in terms of his offensive skillset. And in the case of both, their individual talent and dominance only just now this season translated into wins, and a big part of that is because their teams got breakout strong PG play. Ayton is not like Embiid or Davis. He's not a ball handler and shot creator. He is a pure shot maker. He scores off the catch. He is Dwight Howard with a spot up shooting game. He could reasonably become the most devastating shot maker in the NBA if he played with a high end PG. Without one, I'm afraid he is going to struggle and people will be disappointed with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosher Ham Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Rumor: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2786417-brian-windhorst-raptors-in-drivers-seat-for-kawhi-leonard-amid-trade-rumors The Toronto Raptors are emerging as a favorite to land San Antonio Spurs star Kawhi Leonard. During an appearance on The Lowe Post podcast, ESPN's Brian Windhorst speculated the Los Angeles Lakers and Philadelphia 76ers could be backing out of the Leonard sweepstakes, clearing the way for Toronto (h/t The Big Lead's Bobby Burack). "I think [the Raptors are] in the driver's seat for Kawhi because I think the Lakers have given up, the Sixers have given up," Windhorst said. "And with the Nets, Bulls and Hawks spending their cap space, it makes it harder to assemble a multi-team trade. I think the Raptors are in the driver's seat." More at the link... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 Looks like it’s pretty close to happening now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 I think it makes sense for Toronto because they have to be pretty close to blowing it up anyway. Their stars are aging and their ceiling is lower than Boston's and Philly's as currently constructed. Shake it up by trading for Kawhi. If he walks this summer, then that's your cue to make big changes. *next summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HooHog Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 (edited) Pop is the GOAT, as always. "Oh, Kawhi, you want to go party in LA? Well, enjoy Canada, ****." Edited July 18, 2018 by HooHog punctuation 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRAVEONAWARPATH Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 Apparently, Derozan and Leonard are pretty upset. This should be interesting...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HooHog Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 1 minute ago, BRAVEONAWARPATH said: Apparently, Derozan and Leonard are pretty upset. This should be interesting...... Derozan is understandably upset. He's saying that the Raptors told him during summer league in Vegas that he wouldn't be traded. What a joke of a franchise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 Where’s that Raptor gif?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 I am not sure if this makes these two teams better on the court. But it gets the headache out of San Antonio. DeRozen must be pissed. East is pretty wide open and then he gets traded out West. I'd be irate, especially after all I've done for Toronto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HooHog Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 Just now, Spaceman Spiff said: I am not sure if this makes these two teams better on the court. But it gets the headache out of San Antonio. DeRozen must be pissed. East is pretty wide open and then he gets traded out West. I'd be irate, especially after all I've done for Toronto. Seems like a great move by the Spurs. Kawhi was leaving after next year and could have just sat out again this season. Derozan is a good player who should fit right in in SA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 1 minute ago, TryTheBeal! said: Where’s that Raptor gif?!? This one? Not sure if its what you meant but I feel like it's appropriate. Just now, HooHog said: Seems like a great move by the Spurs. Kawhi was leaving after next year and could have just sat out again this season. Derozan is a good player who should fit right in in SA. He is a good player, I feel like he'd fit in most places. Kawhi in Toronto seems to be drama just waiting to happen. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 15 minutes ago, HooHog said: Pop is the GOAT, as always. "Oh, Kawhi, you want to go party in LA? Well, enjoy Canada, ****." Funny, but I'd be ready to bounce. Toronto is awesome. I would probably enjoy it more than a majority of most U.S. cities at this point, considering the goings on. Gotta say, Pop is a Shaolin Grandmaster. Kawhi showed his cards too early, and really screwed himself hard, with the weird way he boxed himself into a corner, letting teams know he only wanted to go one place. I really think he is an idiot, and he is no longer under the protection of the San Antonio machine, where that strange, mercurial silence will fly, wherever he lands next summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillUnknown Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearrock Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 29 minutes ago, BRAVEONAWARPATH said: Apparently, Derozan and Leonard are pretty upset. This should be interesting...... Why is Leonard upset? What did he expect? SA trades him to LA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillUnknown Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 I really hope some of the other deals on the table get leaked. i find it hard to believe this was the best one on the table Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 Kawhi Leonard is an asshole who deserves whatever comes his way. DeRozan is a good dude who just got screwed by the ugly business end of the NBA. I feel bad for him, but there are far worse places to get traded to than San Antonio. 4 minutes ago, StillUnknown said: I really hope some of the other deals on the table get leaked. i find it hard to believe this was the best one on the table I don't. There is no way San Antonio was getting good offers for Leonard after what he pulled. The injury history and the publicly stated intention he'd be a rental for anyone else but LA kept everyone out. Danny Green was probably in his final year there and DeRozan is a quality volume scorer locked up long term and Poetl is a good young big. That's a surprisingly decent haul for Kawhi given the circumstances. Usually you don't get an All Star back in return for trading an All Star. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, StillUnknown said: I really hope some of the other deals on the table get leaked. i find it hard to believe this was the best one on the table It seems to me that San Antonio waited too long. Once free agency started, other teams started making moves and used up cap space and filled in their gaps, it became harder for them to make deal. I think they would have been better moving more quickly and making a deal before free agency started. The other thing to do is to wait and hope that somebody goes down in the pre-season and a team gets desperate and makes a bad deal then. This seems like the worse time to make a deal. (There also is the issue of his injury and reported interest to play in LA driving down his value. As a one year rental coming off a mystery injury, he's really not worth that much.) Edited July 18, 2018 by PeterMP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillUnknown Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 (edited) I do respect Toronto for realizing they had probably gone as far as they could with the DeRozan/Lowry core. They didn't let a first seed lull them into contentment. They fired the coach and acquired a player who instantly becomes the best in the East, if healthy their success is far from certain, but as someone who watches a lifelong tenured GM rearrange the deck chairs and sign secret extensions, I respect the willingness for a bold call Edited July 18, 2018 by StillUnknown 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 16 minutes ago, PeterMP said: (There also is the issue of his injury and reported interest to play in LA driving down his value. As a one year rental coming off a mystery injury, he's really not worth that much.) The fact that he quit on his team in such an extreme way also probably drove his value down. 11 minutes ago, StillUnknown said: I do respect Toronto for realizing they had probably gone as far as they could with the DeRozan/Lowry core. They didn't let a first seed lull them into contentment. They fired the coach and acquired a player who instantly becomes the best in the East, if healthy They were stuck, and have been for years. But I don't think they come out of this looking good. If they can't keep Kawhi, that team is getting blown up and Ujiri will probably get fired in the process of a rebuild. That is a lot of trust to be putting in someone like Kawhi. I think it's a decent gamble because their core has never been good enough, but I don't actually expect it to work out. And not many other teams were in a similar position to take that kind of risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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