Getting Locked Up for Drinking an Arizona Iced Tea - Video

[Hitman21ST]

Doesn't mean the guys not a racist in this case. At this point we are both just speculating on the cops motivation for taking it as far as he did. I don't take lightly when anyone is accused of being a racist. It's just the first thing I thought when watching the video.

It also doesn't prove that he is.

[Hersh]

It also doesn't prove that he is.

Good gracious, did you even read what I wrote? We are both just speculating on his motivation. It's just our opinions. I don't see any mention of anyone trying to prove a fact.

[Jumbo]

Good post, mcsluggo (you too, youngchew---and I think you're a pretty bright guy from reading your posts).

It may be only my perception changing a bit over time for reasons other than accuracy of observation, but it seems to me that "lame cops" have become more prevalent in my travels. I have had more than the average level of interaction with various forms of law enforcement personnel in my work, and considerably more in my personal life. I have typically been a LEO "booster" as a default position. Not so much anymore.

Experiences over many years have rendered me more neutral and cautious, especially in evaluation of any specific issue of conflict/question/controversy involving the police (certainly a common topic in the Puget Sound area <esp. SEA> where I live). I have had way more incidents where I found my "pro" attitude was misplaced then I care to remember.

Take this just as written, rather than some sweeping put-down or general negativity on cops because it's not. It's certainly an extremely demanding job (even aside the danger element) for most officers. I think's that's far more true for those who try to do it at a high standard of performance and ethical behavioral, let alone being a good will ambassador, diplomat, and simply helpful/friendly under many of their working conditions.

Still, ideally, one should be considering that before seeking the job and prepare to go to great lengths to meet the challenge, but we're humans.

---------- Post added May-3rd-2013 at 09:55 AM ----------

Good gracious

Amigo, I'm going to have to ask you to turn down the x-rated and angry tone.

:pfft:

[Popeman38]

Good gracious, did you even read what I wrote? We are both just speculating on his motivation. It's just our opinions. I don't see any mention of anyone trying to prove a fact.

The point is that you need a reason to imply racism. White cop, black victim does not equal racism. You need context to to make that assertion. If you jump to racism based solely on this video (all we have to go on here), you are looking for racism.

[Predicto]

The point is that you need a reason to imply racism. White cop, black victim does not equal racism. You need context to to make that assertion. If you jump to racism based solely on this video (all we have to go on here), you are looking for racism.

You are correct that it is difficult to determine in any particular case whether race played a role in this kind of incident.

I hope you can understand why people tend to feel that it probably did - many studies have shown that minorities, particularly blacks, get stopped for no reason by the police at a rate much higher than the population as a whole. "Driving while black" is not just a myth.

So when people see a video like this, it plays into their prior knowledge and causes them to form assumptions that may or may not turn out to be correct. They aren't just "looking for racism" for no reason. They are looking for racism because it is extremely common in this type of situation.

Does that make sense?

[Hersh]

The point is that you need a reason to imply racism. White cop, black victim does not equal racism. You need context to to make that assertion. If you jump to racism based solely on this video (all we have to go on here), you are looking for racism.

There was a reason to imply racism. Doesn't mean it definitively was or wasn't. It's just what I thought when I first watched it and there is still plenty of it down in North Carolina that one doesn't have to "look" for it.

---------- Post added May-3rd-2013 at 06:11 PM ----------

Amigo, I'm going to have to ask you to turn down the x-rated and angry tone.

:pfft:

If they aren't careful, next time I'll hit them with a golly gee whiz whether I would get banned or not.

[RonArtest15]

I agree, Hersh. I'm calling a spade a spade here. That man is being harassed for no other reason than the color of his skin. Happens DAILY.

[Koala]

Complying with the police officer's demands would have been the wrong thing to do there. Its not just about stopping the abuse of authority or knowing your rights, its about PUBLIC SAFETY and ensuring the police officers follow guidelines of properly identifying themselves and explaining the reason they are approaching (i.e. the store owner wants you to leave, etc), before they go on any sort of powerrip,

Plainclothes police officers should not expect citizens to comply or respond as they would to uniformed police. Otherwise, it wont take long before criminals use this to take advantage of unsuspecting citizens.

This officer followed none of the guidelines, did everything wrong, and is not only unprofessional but is a danger to society. I guarantee if he keeps this up, its only a matter of time before someone feels threatened, lashes out, and ends up dead. In this case, if some random guy gets all in your face and demands your drink and starts reaching for it, a lot of people I know would feel threatened and have punched the guy. Which of course would lead the police officer to feel threatened and justified in the use of deadly force.

People say you should be nice and courteous to police. But it is in fact police who have a professional duty to be courteous. Douchebags need not apply,

.

[SteveFromYellowstone]

Interesting you jump to racist immediately. Power hungry? Yes. A dick? Yes. Stupid? Yes. All supported by video evidence. Racist? Maybe, but not supported by the video.

Yeah, I'm sure he would have done the exact same thing if a nerdy white kid was drinking tea:rolleyes:

He had absolutely no reason to do what he did. You're kidding yourself if you don't think race was a huge part of it.

[Kilmer17]

Yeah, I'm sure he would have done the exact same thing if a nerdy white kid was drinking tea:rolleyes:

He had absolutely no reason to do what he did. You're kidding yourself if you don't think race was a huge part of it.

Of course it is. All white cops are racists at there core. It's their primary driving force. And ANYTIME there is a confrontation with a black man, it is SOLELY because of race.

[China]

I hope you can understand why people tend to feel that it probably did - many studies have shown that minorities, particularly blacks, get stopped for no reason by the police at a rate much higher than the population as a whole. "Driving while black" is not just a myth.

And in other news...

African-Americans 'Understopped': NYPD Commissioner Ray Kelly Defends Stop-And-Frisk Policy

[Popeman38]

You are correct that it is difficult to determine in any particular case whether race played a role in this kind of incident.

I hope you can understand why people tend to feel that it probably did - many studies have shown that minorities, particularly blacks, get stopped for no reason by the police at a rate much higher than the population as a whole. "Driving while black" is not just a myth.

So when people see a video like this, it plays into their prior knowledge and causes them to form assumptions that may or may not turn out to be correct. They aren't just "looking for racism" for no reason. They are looking for racism because it is extremely common in this type of situation.

Does that make sense?

Look, all we have to go on is this video. We don't have any background on either the officer or the victim. I can go off and make up accusations about the victim too. There would be no basis to refute my accusations, because there is no other evidence other than the video. I fully admitted that the cop could be a card carrying member of the KKK for all we know. But the video, posted by the victims friend, shows no evidence or racism (unless you propose a white cop stopping a black man is evidence of racism). For anyone to say this video proves the cop is racist, there has to be a willingness to assign racism regardless of circumstance. There is nothing to indicate racism.

---------- Post added May-3rd-2013 at 03:21 PM ----------

Yeah, I'm sure he would have done the exact same thing if a nerdy white kid was drinking tea:rolleyes:

He had absolutely no reason to do what he did. You're kidding yourself if you don't think race was a huge part of it.

Do you have prof he hasn't done this exact thing to a nerdy white kid? Nope. All there is is the tape. Indict the cop for being a dick, a power-hungry yokel, an abusive cop.... and I will be right there with you. Indict the cop for being a racist solely on this video, and I argue. There is nothing present indicating racism.

[RonArtest15]

And in other news...

African-Americans 'Understopped': NYPD Commissioner Ray Kelly Defends Stop-And-Frisk Policy

I know GREAT people who work for the NYPD...but using Ray Kelly as a co-sign to this argument is like getting Bernie Madoff to co-sign something you said about investments.

[Hersh]

Look, all we have to go on is this video. We don't have any background on either the officer or the victim. I can go off and make up accusations about the victim too. There would be no basis to refute my accusations, because there is no other evidence other than the video. I fully admitted that the cop could be a card carrying member of the KKK for all we know. But the video, posted by the victims friend, shows no evidence or racism (unless you propose a white cop stopping a black man is evidence of racism). For anyone to say this video proves the cop is racist, there has to be a willingness to assign racism regardless of circumstance. There is nothing to indicate racism.

---------- Post added May-3rd-2013 at 03:21 PM ----------

Do you have prof he hasn't done this exact thing to a nerdy white kid? Nope. All there is is the tape. Indict the cop for being a dick, a power-hungry yokel, an abusive cop.... and I will be right there with you. Indict the cop for being a racist solely on this video, and I argue. There is nothing present indicating racism.

Does racism have to be completely overt for it to exist to you? I don't know if this cop is racist but to suggest that nothing on the video should indicate that possibility is being willfully ignorant.

[China]

I know GREAT people who work for the NYPD...but using Ray Kelly as a co-sign to this argument is like getting Bernie Madoff to co-sign something you said about investments.

I'm not sure where you thought I was going by posting that, but the only intent was to show that stopping people for "driving while black" is still institutionally enforced and that people like Ray Kelly are part of the problem.

[Hitman21ST]

I agree, Hersh. I'm calling a spade a spade here. That man is being harassed for no other reason than the color of his skin. Happens DAILY.

There, a definitive statement. You have NO CLUE whether or not it was just because he's black. Just because it happens daily doesn't mean that it was definitely that in this case. Any attempt to say so is ridiculous, and is profiling (white cop with black civilian? Definite racist )

Yeah, I'm sure he would have done the exact same thing if a nerdy white kid was drinking tea:rolleyes:

He had absolutely no reason to do what he did. You're kidding yourself if you don't think race was a huge part of it.

He did have a reason though. Someone was sitting in the parking lot, drinking what looked like an alcoholic beverage. So the cop investigated, and when the drink turned out to be an Arizona and the guy was waiting for a buddy, then they were going to go buy something, that should have been the end of it. That the cop then took it too far isn't a sign of racism; it is, however, an indicator that the cop was a power hungry ass.

But there is no indication that race played any part in this, except for it being a white cop and a black civilian.

[Popeman38]

Does racism have to be completely overt for it to exist to you? I don't know if this cop is racist but to suggest that nothing on the video should indicate that possibility is being willfully ignorant.

Racism exists without a doubt. But bolded is the important part. You don't know, yet you and others are basically saying he is by saying what happened is driven by race. All in a vacuum, with nothing other than a few minutes of video.

[RonArtest15]

I'm not sure where you thought I was going by posting that, but the only intent was to show that stopping people for "driving while black" is still institutionally enforced and that people like Ray Kelly are part of the problem.

My bad, bro. Misunderstood the post.

[Ghost of]

Yeah, I'm sure he would have done the exact same thing if a nerdy white kid was drinking tea:rolleyes:

He had absolutely no reason to do what he did. You're kidding yourself if you don't think race was a huge part of it.

Otto Zehm was drinking a two-liter soda and was killed by a cop who beat him to the ground, then tasered THEN hog-tied. A developmentally disabled white dude who literally went to the same place to buy a hot dog (or nachos or something) and a soda every day.

Because two women had the mistaken impression that he was stealing from the ATM (how one does that, when one is simply withdrawing one's own money, who knows, maybe he just seemed a bit "off" to them) and called police.

Let me restate that. Because of the the suspicion of two people of a non-violent offense, two people who were not even cops, within moments of getting his soda, Otto Zehm was killed by police because they think that if you don't lick their boots and instantly fall to the ground, or if you express any confusion about what would be confusing even for a non-disabled person, that you should be tasered, hog-tied and killed. Sure, they may not MEAN to kill you..but then they do.

A man with absolutely no weapon, no threat (they even tell him to drop the "pop" so it wasn't based on fear of a weapon) and not suspected of just murdering or raping someone was killed.

And he was white.

I try to get people to move beyond the race thing with cops, NOT because it isn't a factor---it is. But there is more to it and you'll see black cop-white citizen, white cop-white citizen or other permutations that point to this being well beyond race. I mean wasn't the Bell dude in NYC shot by black undercover cops (or at least a few were)?

And let me sneak in a bit of a kernel here. Being targeted because of skin color does happen. But so does targeting by sex. They aren't based solely on racism but also on statistics (and not just arrests but the victim survey, which comports more or less with incarceration rates, especially for violent crimes.) There is a reason they don't pull over Asians or Indians, there simply is no reason (from a broad statistical perspective) to do so, except in very specific locales/contexts. Just like you're not going to (if you could) profile followers of Jainism for acts of terror.

---------- Post added May-3rd-2013 at 04:49 PM ----------

I'm not sure where you thought I was going by posting that, but the only intent was to show that stopping people for "driving while black" is still institutionally enforced and that people like Ray Kelly are part of the problem.

I think a large part of this comes from the Drug War. Cops should not be pulling people over because they "might have drugs" even though they do catch other types of criminals from traffic stops. Also, when you develop certain institutional, org'l and persoanl experiences in certain areas of a city or with certain profiles, you're going to use that as a basis for future action.

It's why my ex who had a big butt got cautious around groups of black dudes, but not at all around Asians. Because the younger black dudes are the ones who'd engage in street harassment. If I'm walking down the street, SURE, the woman could stab me, but I'm more on edge if I walk by a group of ANY younger males really late at night.

Two things can be true simultaneously: 1) Cops are often racist, but even when not act unjustly against citizens of various backgrounds for a multitude of reasons 2) Being a cop is a hard, tough and sometimes thankless job and often act wisely based on the observations and generalizations we tend to do when we acquire enough experience. Sometimes this means generalizations that might be wrong, or be outdated but might offend certain groups.

Again, just because we DID have cheerleader bank robbers does not mean the "profile" of a bank robber doesn't start with MALE.

[Predicto]

Look, all we have to go on is this video. We don't have any background on either the officer or the victim. I can go off and make up accusations about the victim too. There would be no basis to refute my accusations, because there is no other evidence other than the video. I fully admitted that the cop could be a card carrying member of the KKK for all we know. But the video, posted by the victims friend, shows no evidence or racism (unless you propose a white cop stopping a black man is evidence of racism). For anyone to say this video proves the cop is racist, there has to be a willingness to assign racism regardless of circumstance. There is nothing to indicate racism.

Wait, I was agreeing with you. We don't have anything specific to go on here that proves anything other than that this cop is a jerk.

I was just trying to point out why people's minds naturally jump to assuming racism when these circumstances come up. There are very good reasons why that happens.

[JMS]

I agree, Hersh. I'm calling a spade a spade here. That man is being harassed for no other reason than the color of his skin. Happens DAILY.

The facts are though the guy with the tea was being a dick to the cop. The cop was trying to see what the guy was drinking and the guy moved to keep it out of the cops hands physically resisting him. Was that enough to get the guy arrested regardless of skin color.absolutely... Laugh at a cop, make fun of a cop... pretend you don't have to listen to a cop... and you are likely going to be going down town regardless of whether you are guilty of anything else...

If this guy would have been like, sure man here is my tea... I don't have a beer... the cop might have been on his way... but that's not what his guy did. This guy thought he wasn't doing anything wrong, and therefore he didn't have to listen to the cop... You always have to listen to the cops.

I don't think a judge is going to convict the guy of anything.. but he'll likely spend a few hours in the jail and have to go through a royal pain in court.. lucky he's got the video and lucky he didn't resist the cop just a little more when the cop was putting on the hand cuffs... This could have been a lot worse..

I

---------- Post added May-3rd-2013 at 07:22 PM ----------

Wait, I was agreeing with you. We don't have anything specific to go on here that proves anything other than that this cop is a jerk.

You lalugh at a cop, you make fun of a cop, you physically try to withhold what you are drinking from the cop...... most cops are going to act like dicks.

I was just trying to point out why people's minds naturally jump to assuming racism when these circumstances come up. There are very good reasons why that happens.

The cop had a perfectly valid reason to question this guy.... he was drinking something which looked like a beer. Was the arrest necessary... probable not... but was it unprecedented or even abnormal given the guys behavior... probable not. Especially in cities.

[RansomthePasserby]

The facts are though the guy with the tea was being a dick to the cop. The cop was trying to see what the guy was drinking and the guy moved to keep it out of the cops hands physically resisting him. Was that enough to get the guy arrested regardless of skin color.absolutely... Laugh at a cop, make fun of a cop... pretend you don't have to listen to a cop... and you are likely going to be going down town regardless of whether you are guilty of anything else...

I agree, but the officer should have identified himself as police before he asked for a drink.

[Hersh]

The facts are though the guy with the tea was being a dick to the cop. The cop was trying to see what the guy was drinking and the guy moved to keep it out of the cops hands physically resisting him. Was that enough to get the guy arrested regardless of skin color.absolutely... Laugh at a cop, make fun of a cop... pretend you don't have to listen to a cop... and you are likely going to be going down town regardless of whether you are guilty of anything else...

If this guy would have been like, sure man here is my tea... I don't have a beer... the cop might have been on his way... but that's not what his guy did. This guy thought he wasn't doing anything wrong, and therefore he didn't have to listen to the cop... You always have to listen to the cops.

I don't think a judge is going to convict the guy of anything.. but he'll likely spend a few hours in the jail and have to go through a royal pain in court.. lucky he's got the video and lucky he didn't resist the cop just a little more when the cop was putting on the hand cuffs... This could have been a lot worse..

Some guy just comes up to you, tries to grab your drink and you are ok with it? I understand the people on here saying the cop wasn't a racist, but I think you are the first guy defending the cop and blaming the rapper. The guy arrested didn't do a single thing wrong in that video. He pointed to his can to show what it was. Cops can't search whatever they want, when they want.

[Popeman38]

Wait, I was agreeing with you. We don't have anything specific to go on here that proves anything other than that this cop is a jerk.

I was just trying to point out why people's minds naturally jump to assuming racism when these circumstances come up. There are very good reasons why that happens.

Well, apparently you weren't ardent enough in your agreement.

I guess I read your pst wrong, my ad. :shrug:

[Stadium-Armory]

I don't see much in that video that proves racism however I do wonder what evidence the officer had to begin with to think a crime was being committed. I suspect nothing concrete but rather that the tea drinking rapper fit a profile in the officer's mind. Racial profiling.