Hersh Posted May 6, 2013 Share Posted May 6, 2013 What are you claiming didn't occur in my description? Cop asked for the can a half dozen or more times, reached for it a half zozen times.. X kept pulling it away... Cop sais let me see the can... X "your looking at it"... Cop says I want to read the ingredients reaches for it again... X pulls it away... and reads the name of the beverage to the cop.. Cop let me see it. X I aint doing nothing wrong... Basically everything since you are the only one claiming that the rapper was taunting the cop and the cop was completely within his rights and did nothing wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No_Pressure Posted May 6, 2013 Share Posted May 6, 2013 What are you claiming didn't occur in my description? Cop asked for the can a half dozen or more times, reached for it a half zozen times.. X kept pulling it away... Cop sais let me see the can... X "your looking at it"... Cop says I want to read the ingredients reaches for it again... X pulls it away... and reads the name of the beverage to the cop.. Cop let me see it. X I aint doing nothing wrong... Let's replace the word can with wallet, or ball of cash, or diamond ring. In what universe is this not a shakedown, or unreasonable search and seizure? What is the cop's probable cause? That the guy in question was drinking what appeared to be iced tea outside of a liquor store? Did he smell alcohol on his breath? He never explained whether he did or not, he never established a reasonable explanation for seizing the man's property. He just shows up says "HEY, I'M A COP, GIVE ME THAT CAN!" The can was the guy's property which he bought and was consuming legally. If there is no forthcoming evidence that he may be doing otherwise, then the cop has no grounds for confiscating the can, or at least has no more justification for doing so as any other cop would to walk up to you on a random day, think you look suspicious, and demand that you hand over whatever you have in your pockets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hersh Posted May 6, 2013 Share Posted May 6, 2013 Fixed. You forgot to add "arrested for trespassing which had nothing to do with the original request" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted May 6, 2013 Share Posted May 6, 2013 Fixed. Added one more fix.. What are you claiming didn't occur in my description? Some random guy who identified himself as a police officer in a leather vest asked for the can a half dozen or more times, reached for it a half zozen times.. X kept pulling it away... Random guy sais let me see the can... X "your looking at it"... Weird guy says I want to read the ingredients reaches for it again... X pulls it away... and reads the name of the beverage to the guy .. Guy let me see it. X I aint doing nothing wrong... Later, the guy briefly shows his badge again identifying himself as a police officer, and only seconds later arrests the man. [/qutoe] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan T. Posted May 6, 2013 Author Share Posted May 6, 2013 "Badges. We don't need no stinking badges." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stinking_badges Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No_Pressure Posted May 6, 2013 Share Posted May 6, 2013 Maybe if I write this in big enough font it will actually be responded to by this guy: The Fourth Amendment to the Constitution of the United Stated (This place where we live) states: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. If you do not satisfactorily establish probable cause, and attempt to seize a citizen's private property without their personal consent, you are violating their rights which are guaranteed by the Constitution. This is why the police officer in question changed his charge to "trespassing" moments before taking the man to the ground and arresting him in a blatant abuse of power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hersh Posted May 6, 2013 Share Posted May 6, 2013 Added one more fix.. What are you claiming didn't occur in my description? Some random guy who identified himself as a police officer in a leather vest asked for the can a half dozen or more times, reached for it a half zozen times.. X kept pulling it away... Random guy sais let me see the can... X "your looking at it"... Weird guy says I want to read the ingredients reaches for it again... X pulls it away... and reads the name of the beverage to the guy .. Guy let me see it. X I aint doing nothing wrong... Later, the guy briefly shows his badge again identifying himself as a police officer, and only seconds later arrests the man. [/qutoe] The cop didn't even identify himself until the rapper asked who he was after they guy reached for the can and said he wanted to see the can. Not to mention the cop didn't actually show identification at that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbo Posted May 6, 2013 Share Posted May 6, 2013 Hey, No Pressure. Please edit all the CAPS in huge font. We always let a degree of caps/large font slide when it's just a few words or less, but when over-done it's distracting and very annoying when reading the thread. I know we all get frustrated with other posters at times, but you're still expected to follow the rules. 16. REFRAIN FROM POSTING IN ALL CAPITALS. Also, especially given "number 3" in the READ ME thread I just put up, the reason you're not getting a time-out is because of your excellent record here, rule violation wise. Only one minor issue in the whole time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitman21ST Posted May 6, 2013 Share Posted May 6, 2013 Added one more fix..What are you claiming didn't occur in my description? Some random guy who identified himself as a police officer in a leather vest asked for the can a half dozen or more times, reached for it a half zozen times.. X kept pulling it away... Random guy sais let me see the can... X "your looking at it"... Weird guy says I want to read the ingredients reaches for it again... X pulls it away... and reads the name of the beverage to the guy .. Guy let me see it. X I aint doing nothing wrong... Later, the guy briefly shows his badge again identifying himself as a police officer, and only seconds later arrests the man. [/qutoe] Just saying you're a police officer does NOT identify yourself as one. You need to show a badge, which this guy didn't until much later. Until he shows his badge, he's just some random ass guy. And yes, I actually spoke with a former plainclothes detective about this actual case, and he said the cop was in the wrong and the rapper didn't have to give him his drink. Nevermind that he arrested him for trespassing, which a cop can't do unless the owner/proprietor of the property says "that guy is trespassing", which he didn't. I know that because after the cop realized that he screwed up with the Arizona, he threw in trespassing there to give himself an excuse to continue with the arrest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No_Pressure Posted May 6, 2013 Share Posted May 6, 2013 I took out the all caps and made the fonts slightly smaller. I think I succeeded in granting the tailgate a momentary reprieve. After all, who is going to argue that the 4th amendment shouldn't apply to things?! :paranoid: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
da#1skinsfan Posted May 6, 2013 Share Posted May 6, 2013 I think you are entirely wrong. This cop was from the enforcement division of the Cumberland County Alcoholic Beverage Control Board. He was there outside of an ABC store specifically to ensure folks weren't drinking in the parking lot. He was doing his job. No cop is going to take your word for it if he sees you drinking from an open container.. Nor is he going to let you get away with refusing to inspect the drink more closely. Officers are trained to RESOLVE issues, not complicate them. Check out this video for an example of an officer who clearly has been trained properly in terms of how to best handle a potentially inflammatory situation: Here is another one: These are examples of cops using their training to diffuse a situation and solve a problem...not exacerbate the issue by introducing violence and unexplained demands. See the difference? The officer (or however you want to label him) could have gone about this a much better way. In fact, it's not that he could ,he SHOULD have gone about it a better way. Remember, it's his job. The same way you and I are expected to interact with our coworkers and others, the same is expected of police officers. You also need to remember, the police are an extension of police management...who are an extension of politicians....who rely on the public to remain in power. Politicians will be the first ones to see videos like this and come down hard on whatever "arm of the law" is responsible for stirring up the public like this. Rest assured, the Mayor of Fayetteville has seen this video and I'm sure has had some tough questions for the folks in charge of this operation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted May 6, 2013 Share Posted May 6, 2013 Basically everything since you are the only one claiming that the rapper was taunting the cop and the cop was completely within his rights and did nothing wrong. Look the clip clearly shows the police man reaching for the tea can after identifying himself as a cop and the rapper pulling it just outside his reach... It clearly shows at one point the rapper turns his back and uses his other arm to block the cop.... The cop telling him he wants to see the can.... the rapper saying, "you are looking at it". That is certainly taunting... It's just being a pain the the cops butt. If your contention is the rappers behavior did not influence the cops behavior at all... then we disagree. The cop didn't want to arrest him the cop wanted to do his job and the ultimately since the rapper wouldn't cooperate that meant an arrest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted May 6, 2013 Share Posted May 6, 2013 Look the clip clearly shows the police man reaching for the tea can after identifying himself as a cop and the rapper pulling it just outside his reach... It clearly shows at one point the rapper turns his back and uses his other arm to block the cop.... The cop telling him he wants to see the can.... the rapper saying, "you are looking at it". That is certainly taunting...It's just being a pain the the cops butt. If your contention is the rappers behavior did not influence the cops behavior at all... then we disagree. The cop didn't want to arrest him the cop wanted to do his job and the ultimately since the rapper wouldn't cooperate that meant an arrest. The only thing the rapper did to influence the cop's behavior was to not submit to an unreasonable search and seizure,* which the rapper was 100% within his constitutional rights to do. Then the cop got upset/offended that his command was not immediately and unquestioningly followed, and escalated the situation. *an unreasonable search and seizure is one that is not based on probable cause, and standing in a parking lot with a can of something that is not alcohol while not acting drunk or otherwise breaking the law is not probable cause. See Illinois v. Gates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hersh Posted May 6, 2013 Share Posted May 6, 2013 Look the clip clearly shows the police man reaching for the tea can after identifying himself as a cop and the rapper pulling it just outside his reach... It clearly shows at one point the rapper turns his back and uses his other arm to block the cop.... The cop telling him he wants to see the can.... the rapper saying, "you are looking at it". That is certainly taunting...It's just being a pain the the cops butt. If your contention is the rappers behavior did not influence the cops behavior at all... then we disagree. The cop didn't want to arrest him the cop wanted to do his job and the ultimately since the rapper wouldn't cooperate that meant an arrest. Your first sentence isn't accurate. The cop asks and reaches for the can before identifying himself (as others accurately point out, without presenting any kind of identification). My contention is that the cop was way out of line, as everyone but you agrees, and that the way the cop acted influenced the rapper. As others have pointed out and as you have decided to ignore, the rapper wasn't even arrested for not giving his can to the cop, he was arrested for trespassing. The cop never said anything about trespassing at first. Wonder why that is?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted May 6, 2013 Share Posted May 6, 2013 Just saying you're a police officer does NOT identify yourself as one. What do you think there is a secret code word? Yes absolutely saying you are a police officer, is literally identifying yourself as a police officer.. Just like saying you are a police officer and not being one is grounds for being charged as impersonating a police officer. You need to show a badge, which this guy didn't until much later. Again with the I'm not a lawyer and I don't know my rights, but I believe..... ohhhh tooo bad soooo sad. The cop needs to show a badge if asked.. X didn't ask. The cop saying he was a cop is identification enough unless challenged on that. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20101226110810AAmUWtx Until he shows his badge, he's just some random ass guy. No once he says he's a cop he's absolutely not a random guy anymore... Then he's a cop... you can ask to see his iID but you can't ignore him or not cooperate with him, well not if you are smart... And yes, I actually spoke with a former plainclothes detective about this actual case, and he said the cop was in the wrong and the rapper didn't have to give him his drink. And yet X went to jail, and X could have avoided the entire hassle if he had just complied and showed a little respect. Nevermind that he arrested him for trespassing, which a cop can't do unless the owner/proprietor of the property says "that guy is trespassing", which he didn't. More non lawyer legal advice... North Carolina is an Alcoholic beverage control state just like Virginia.. Which means the state has a monopoly on selling booze to go out of a store front. ABC store, alcoholic beverage control store.... connects too alcoholic beverage control officer... The state owned the store and yes if a state alcohol enforcement officer asks you to leave a state owned ABC store and you don't; you can be charged with trespassing which is probable why the cop used those exact words. Because the COP knew what he had to do to arrest this guy, and the guy incorrectly thought he could disrespect the COP cause he wasn't doing anything ELSE wrong. The guy was mistaken and went to jail. Why? because he was making the cops life harder and the cop reciprocated. I know that because after the cop realized that he screwed up with the Arizona, he threw in trespassing there to give himself an excuse to continue with the arrest. Again you're wrong.... The cop told the guy to leave or he wold arrest him with trespassing... when the guy didn't leave the cop arrested him just like he had warned him of. The cop didn't try to arrest him until after he told the guy to leave. ---------- Post added May-6th-2013 at 03:17 PM ---------- Your first sentence isn't accurate. The cop asks and reaches for the can before identifying himself (as others accurately point out, without presenting any kind of identification). You are right but that doesn't make my statement wrong... Yeah the cop reached for the can first, and the rapper says "who are you" the guy identifies himself as a cop... "pOlice". Then the pOlice reaches for the can again, and again, and again and asks for the can a half dozen times... and X says, you're looking at it.. holding it just out of reach... denying him the can. And no the cop doesn't have to produce a badge when he identifies himself as a police officer unless requested. My contention is that the cop was way out of line, as everyone but you agrees, and that the way the cop acted influenced the rapper. As others have pointed out and as you have decided to ignore, the rapper wasn't even arrested for not giving his can to the cop, he was arrested for trespassing. The cop never said anything about trespassing at first. Wonder why that is?? Good luck with that... The cop was actually pretty respectful. The cop said sir a half a dozen times as he asserted himself to see the beverage, and then told the guy to leave or he would be arrested, and finally arrested him for trespassing as he had told the guy he would.... sir sir sir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullnelson9999 Posted May 6, 2013 Share Posted May 6, 2013 oh nevermind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted May 6, 2013 Share Posted May 6, 2013 oh nevermind Important lesson to be learned here... do your best to make the cops life easier and he won't feel the need to take a dump on you; and the police usually know what they have to do to arrest you a lot better than you do because that's all they do. The best advice is to not try to assert some fictitious right you are unsure of, and if you do don't try to daisy chain that by refusing other requests from the police. Cause they'll arrest you, it's pretty much what they do. Don't even go there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted May 6, 2013 Share Posted May 6, 2013 Important lesson to be learned here... do your best to make the cops life easier and he won't feel the need to take a dump on you; and the police usually know what they have to do to arrest you a lot better than you do because that's all they do. The best advice is to not try to assert some fictitious right you are unsure of, and if you do don't try to daisy chain that by refusing other requests from the police. Cause they'll arrest you, it's pretty much what they do. Don't even go there. Fictitious rights? Like the 4th Amendment? Mr. Rapper is going to be just fine as I am certain he has been in contact with legal representation (likely the ACLU) regarding a civil complaint against the Fayetteville ABC Dept and Mr. Officer. The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan T. Posted May 6, 2013 Author Share Posted May 6, 2013 What do you think there is a secret code word? Yes absolutely saying you are a police officer, is literally identifying yourself as a police officer.. Just like saying you are a police officer and not being one is grounds for being charged as impersonating a police officer.Again with the I'm not a lawyer and I don't know my rights, but I believe..... ohhhh tooo bad soooo sad. The cop needs to show a badge if asked.. X didn't ask. The cop saying he was a cop is identification enough unless challenged on that. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20101226110810AAmUWtx No once he says he's a cop he's absolutely not a random guy anymore... Then he's a cop... you can ask to see his iID but you can't ignore him or not cooperate with him, well not if you are smart... And no the cop doesn't have to produce a badge when he identifies himself as a police officer unless requested. At 1:28 both the rapper and the videographer ask about police identification. At 2:08 they ask for a badge number. At 2:10 the plain clothes officer pulls back his vest to reveal an apparent badge for 1 second. Two seconds later, the officer first puts his hands on the victim. For proper police conduct, that sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted May 6, 2013 Share Posted May 6, 2013 JMS you are using the word respect incorrectly, respect does not mean submit and politely comply. Certainly now when the police officer had no legal grounds to search the individual. By your definition of respect refusing an unreasonable search is an insulting gesture towards a police officer. That's obviously problematic. Even if I accept your perspective, that refusing to hand over personal property in this instance equates to a lack of respect and insult, you're position is still essentially that the cop manipulated the situation in order to manufacture cause for an arrest over a perceived slight. A man being arrested and charged over hurt feelings is not ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullnelson9999 Posted May 6, 2013 Share Posted May 6, 2013 Important lesson to be learned here... do your best to make the cops life easier and he won't feel the need to take a dump on you; and the police usually know what they have to do to arrest you a lot better than you do because that's all they do. The best advice is to not try to assert some fictitious right you are unsure of, and if you do don't try to daisy chain that by refusing other requests from the police. Cause they'll arrest you, it's pretty much what they do. Don't even go there. I'm honestly not sure if you're being serious anymore. Fictitious rights? The 4th amendment is quite clear. Just because the officer wanted to search the man doesn't mean he can. He can't do anything he wants whenever he wants to do it. And as much as he may have wanted to search the guy drinking out of a can in an ABC parking lot, he has to show restraint. It's not in his rights to search him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No_Pressure Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 Why has the 4th amendment been posted like 5 times in the past 3 pages and it is still being ignored by a certain someone? Should I post it in colors this time? The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sacase Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 To me here is the problem, the officer has to show probable cause if he wants to search the person. Now if he said, hey I smell liquor, what are you drinking, or saw behavior that would indicate he was drunk (like the obvious drunk guy who ran behind them in the video), then he would have PC to stop. But just because he saw someone drinking from can does not give PC. Once he saw the can and was close to the rapper and he still did not smell alcohol...well his leverage stopped. But because he was feeling like Napoleon, he decided that he was going to come out ahead and tell the guy to leave or he is trespassing. The officer is really lucky something more didn't pop off, cause this could have ended badly because of how he approached this situation. just saying you are a cop is not identification (using yahoo answers is not a credible source) flashing a badge for one second is not identification, at least to me. He is lucky the guy didn't fight back. There are plenty of resources out there which state the cop will provide photo ID and if you are still unsure of the situation then you can call 911. For example: http://www.pwcgov.org/government/dept/police/Pages/What-to-Do-if-Stopped.aspx The cop was asked several times and failed to give proper ID. He is VERY lucky that as soon as he lunged for the can, he didn't get beat down. The rapper handled the situation very well all things considered, because this cop had it in his mind that he was going to arrest the rapper that night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 Wouldnt a can that the cop thought to be alcohol give him probable cause? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 Wouldnt a can that the cop thought to be alcohol give him probable cause? If he has actual reasons, like smelling alcohol from the can. PC to believe there is alcohol may provide PC to arrest for open container violation and thus a search incident to arrest would be valid. No, a can labeled tea does not by itself create probable cause, even if the cop suspects it has alcohol. A hunch is not sufficient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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