Fox NFL Sunday via Jay Glazer: Dan Snyder not Happy with Coach Shanahan's Comments After Carolina Game.

[Skins3000]

Other players worth keeping?

Just off the top of my head: Leonard Hankerson, Niles Paul, Roy Helu, Fred Davis, Aldrick Robinson, Josh LeRibeus, Adam Gettis, Darrel Young, Kirk Cousins, Jarvis Jenkins, Stephen Bowen, Perry Riley, Keenan Robinson, Lorenzo Alexander, Logan Paulsen, Richard Crawford, Adam Carriker, Kai Forbath, Nick Sundberg, Rob Jackson.

Call me crazy, but I'd like to keep the core of a top 10 offense learning a relatively new scheme under the direction of a rookie QB for longer than 9 games.

Also, just because a player doesn't produce like a pro-bowler by the age of 24 doesn't mean that the guy has no value for an NFL team.[/QU

Out of that list only Perry Riley is worth having around. These players mentioned would not catch on with other teams with the exception of Kirk Cousins that luxury pick. Just because they are Redskins players does not mean they are good players or for that matter have value. Even the coach is questioning the players ability to be good and that coach actually picked these players so what is that saying.

[bedlamVR]

Why do everyone think the team will be blown up if a new gm and coach come to town? The core pieces or players that have some value will remain but the dead weight would be buried in my opinion with a good gm. The Banks, Doughtys, Halls, Wilsons, Williams, Fletchers, and this lists is long would be gone next year any way. The only sure players on this team are Orakpo, Kerrigan, Trent Williams, RG3, Garcon, Morgan and Morris. To be honest these are the only players worth keeping but a person could make a case for the offensive line in its entirety because the line has played well but after that an over haul is needed on both sides of the ball.

This is the problem - If you only ever keep people who are performing you never develop talent and there is no saying these players will fit the new scheme what ever it is ...

I am disturbed about this and I normally dislike these sewing circle conspiracy threads but it just goes on to tell us that what appeared fixed is much more of an ingrained problem - If Snyder is pushing Shanahan out (and i think Kyle is waiting to see what happens with Mike before deciding anything) because he is listening to none football executives then we will never be a good franchise .

[Thinking Skins]

A lot. A lot, a lot, a lot. It's not even close.

Please do more than look at W-L when assessing the direction of an organization. Nothing is more short-sighted than only looking at a team's record.

What makes you say this? What's the direction of the organization other than stalemate? We're still a losing franchise. We're still going after high priced free agents who don't work out. We've still got an offense that can't score points and a defense that (has gotten worse) can't stop anybody when it matters. Then, we were set on building around Campbell and a solid defense. Now we're planning on building around RG3. Sometimes I think fans confuse the words "change" and "progress", yeah we have new players, but just like back in 2008 we have a bunch of players that wouldn't be starting on other teams.

---------- Post added November-14th-2012 at 06:17 AM ----------

A lot. A lot, a lot, a lot. It's not even close.

Please do more than look at W-L when assessing the direction of an organization. Nothing is more short-sighted than only looking at a team's record.

Also, why is Zorn used as the measuring stick? Lets just admit that he's a bad coach, but Gibbs had this program on the right ship, why are we not meauring Shanny by Gibbs's standards (and yeah, I mean Gibbs 2)? Sad to say that as critical of Gibbs II, he's LEAPS AND BOUNDS better than Shanny. U know what I'd give for a 9-7 record or 10-6 playoff run. Could we repeat history where we went on a 5-0 run to close out the season and make the playoffs in 2005? Its possible, but I don't see it happening. Meanwhile, people act like Shanny's some holy grail of coaching and stability because he's supposedly better than Zorn, when he hasn't even gotten this franchise back to Gibbs's level of success.

[Arsenic]

I'm starting to think we lack a good motivator. Im fine with Kyle at OC... Raheem at DC.. Put Gruden on the sidelines & let him slap some refs around.. Keep the current offense & let the new coach have the mic. I guess youd have to put Sr somewhere in the FO.. Make it look like a promotion, to keep down on the drama.. blame his health or something.. gotta be tricky, around these parts

[Thinking Skins]

I hope that Snyder doesn't delay publically expressing his full support for Mike Shanahan and for staying the course with MIke's approach for developing this this team.

I would also love for Snyder to come out and say this, as it would probably mean that Shanny's likely to be fired at the end of the season, if not sooner (ala what the Lakers did with Mike Brown).

---------- Post added November-14th-2012 at 06:33 AM ----------

Of cours, Snyder will need to pay this GM gobs of money to consider coming here. The GM will also be guaranteed 5 years up front regardless of performance. Snyder will kiss his ass and go on scouting trips with him and be his buddy.

In short, we will be where we are now. A tired organization with tired ideas and no accountability for the bloated has beens running the show

I've come to accept that the Redskins under Snyder will be what the Bullets/Wizards were under Abe Polin for most of my life, a bottom dweller team that occasionally sniffs near a 500 record. Similar to Abe, Danny likes to be friends with the people in power and doesn't know the idea of hiring a young and hungry guy to prove himself.

Its cool though as the Redskins sucking for the last 10 years has forced me to expose myself to other interests. I've taken up reading, writing, other sports, got a few degrees, and I owe it all to Snyder's ownership of the Skins. I really should be thanking him.

---------- Post added November-14th-2012 at 06:34 AM ----------

Snyder has been so focused on having the proper coach throughout his tenure as owner, and I hope Shanny's underwhelming performance in the W-L ledger to date is teaching Dan a lesson that its just not as simple as paying a pedigreed guy a lot of money and magic will happen just like that. Hopefully he is learning from this process.

Some people are slow learners, especially when your money tells you that you can make magic happen.

[Wyvern]

I would also love for Snyder to come out and say this, as it would probably mean that Shanny's likely to be fired at the end of the season, if not sooner (ala what the Lakers did with Mike Brown).

Just kidding of course, but I'm about to add the word "Cynically" to the front of your ES name.

As you know, I think it important that Snyder use his authority to quell all this speculation that Shanhan is on his way out even though he's only in the middle of his 5-year contract. Snyder not saying anything, allows the circus to continue ...and nothing productive comes out of that.

Snyder needs to clearly indicate, that he and the team remains committed to rebuilding the Skins, in spite of the unanticipated reversals, and reinforce that Shanahan has his unquestioned authority to continue his approach in developing the the team. To allow the media (and unknown 'unhappy players') to recreate a Zorn-like death-watch on Shanahan and his staff -- is counterproductive and accomplishes nothing.

Alternatively, Snyder could revert back to his form early on his career and simply fire Shanahan in mid-contract, but what does that accomplish? It won't improve the situation, and merely proves to the NFL that he is an impatient owner who pulls the trigger without thinking. And should Snyder actually find a good coach willing to come to Washington, and continue a rebuild under these kind of conditions -- Redskins fans will get to enjoy watching the team be done over to fit the new coaches philosophy, and also to deliberate on the eventual fate of the latest entrant in the coaching carousel.

The important thing to note is that if an owner and fan-base can't tolerate a rebuild taking longer than two years, and only want 'quick fixes' -- they are probably doomed to a parade of teams that are cobbled together to give the appearance of being competitve in the current season. And under that approach, eventually you run into a situation that resembles 2009, when the wheels start to fall off. Real progress is when you build a foundation of talent to support the stars that emerge on your team, and establish a tradition of continuity in managing a time-tested system, especially on offense.

Allowing this media circus to continue would be detrimental to the team's chances to succeed under a time-proven coach. While not complete yet, Shanahan has established a fairly solid foundation for a playoff competitive offense. The team now enjoys a relatively cap-friendly structure, and its pre-season depth is better than ever. The Skins have obtained many components of a defense that is probably going to be able to adequately compete in 2013, and hold opponents to fewer points than the Skins offense generates. The team is younger, stocked with good players found in the later rounds, and with a salary structure that is about to improve in a major way by 2014.

So .... sometimes it behooves an owner -- and the fans -- to stay patient. And for an owner to step up and cast a vote of confidence in the approach being taken.

[MustangSteve]

Right now is when Mike Shanahan will prove what type of coach he is. This division is up for grabs and he is either going to be one who fights for the NFC East Title, like we all hope he does and should, or one who continues to look and hope for next season, which we pray he's not. A true champion coach would fight like a cornered dog in this situation. I remember Gibbs 1st year starting 0-5 but he finished the year strong, showing fans we had something great to look forward to next season, and that ended up being a Super Bowl trophy. It's time to fight coach, lets go and take this division!

[WhoRUSupposed2Be]

Just kidding of course, but I'm about to add the word "Cynically" to the front of your ES name.

As you know, I think it important that Snyder use his authority to quell all this speculation that Shanhan is on his way out even though he's only in the middle of his 5-year contract. Snyder not saying anything, allows the circus to continue ...and nothing productive comes out of that.

Snyder needs to clearly indicate, that he and the team remains committed to rebuilding the Skins, in spite of the unanticipated reversals, and reinforce that Shanahan has his unquestioned authority to continue his approach in developing the the team. To allow the media (and unknown 'unhappy players') to recreate a Zorn-like death-watch on Shanahan and his staff -- is counterproductive and accomplishes nothing.

Alternatively, Snyder could revert back to his form early on his career and simply fire Shanahan in mid-contract, but what does that accomplish? It won't improve the situation, and merely proves to the NFL that he is an impatient owner who pulls the trigger without thinking. And should Snyder actually find a good coach willing to come to Washington, and continue a rebuild under these kind of conditions -- Redskins fans will get to enjoy watching the team be done over to fit the new coaches philosophy, and also to deliberate on the eventual fate of the latest entrant in the coaching carousel.

The important thing to note is that if an owner and fan-base can't tolerate a rebuild taking longer than two years, and only want 'quick fixes' -- they are probably doomed to a parade of teams that are cobbled together to give the appearance of being competitve in the current season. And under that approach, eventually you run into a situation that resembles 2009, when the wheels start to fall off. Real progress is when you build a foundation of talent to support the stars that emerge on your team, and establish a tradition of continuity in managing a time-tested system, especially on offense.

Allowing this media circus to continue would be detrimental to the team's chances to succeed under a time-proven coach. While not complete yet, Shanahan has established a fairly solid foundation for a playoff competitive offense. The team now enjoys a relatively cap-friendly structure, and its pre-season depth is better than ever. The Skins have obtained many components of a defense that is probably going to be able to adequately compete in 2013, and hold opponents to fewer points than the Skins offense generates. The team is younger, stocked with good players found in the later rounds, and with a salary structure that is about to improve in a major way by 2014.

So .... sometimes it behooves an owner -- and the fans -- to stay patient. And for an owner to step up and cast a vote of confidence in the approach being taken.

This man gets 'it'?!!!

[KingGibbs]

I'm all for being patient........when I see progress. Unfortunately, I see us regressing in areas that are over-looked by some of you that are important aspects of the game. The amount of penalties, clock management, lack of discipline, team being flat when the coach called it a "must-win" game, etc. Those aspects of the game should be improving in year three regardless of talent level and they haven't.

[Jeffro]

I'm all for being patient........when I see progress. Unfortunately, I see us progressing in areas that are over-looked by some of you that are important aspects of the game. The amount of penalties, clock management, lack of discipline, team being flat when the coach called it a "must-win" game, etc. Those aspects of the game should be improving in year three regardless of talent level and it hasn't.

Help me understand this logic please...

I work in a Fortune 50 company, my budget for my group is in the tens of millions. When I have underperformers/poor performers/bad employees I have to manage that as a "coach" or manager and I do, through performance plans, action plans, step plans etc. Some people respond and move to the productive employee category, some don't and are separated from the company. Let's say for sake of argument that I personally hired them.

Based on your logic, I'm responsible for everything that happens regardless right? If they don't get better, even though they are on a performance plan that's my fault? If they decide to respond negatively and with lack of discipline after being put on an action plan that is my fault as well? The bottom line is employees are free to make the decisions they want regardless of the circumstances. My job is to manage them based on those decisions and to not put people in situations where they can't succeed. The argument could be made that Shanahan put people in spots to fail, but no manager/coach does that on purpose.. they put them their because you believe in them and you can't give them the hook too early or too late. Sometimes the coach is blamed for too many things that are up to the free will of the people. Honestly, I feel that players who doesn’t show discipline or passion in must win games is a sign of a locker room that doesn’t hold each other accountable more than a coach that doesn’t. Coach Shanahan has proved time and time again he wouldn’t tolerate bad behavior and took grief for it, at what point do you have to look at the players and say the leaders of this team aren’t doing their job?

I don’t believe there is a coach on this earth that could have this team above .500 right now under the same circumstances, if people on here do, I'd love to know who and why they feel that way. I do believe that if we had a few quality players in the secondary we could be above .500 though, so who should I blame for that? We have no cap, we're mid-season where you can’t find quality players and the alternative is to go to a practice squad player who you know will make mistakes as part of the learning curve.. Its damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

Just give this coaching staff some time to continue to build through the draft, pick up some free agents, and keep building.. it will get to where we want to go. Blowing up everything and expecting different results is what we've done that the last 20 years, what makes you think that will work this time?

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

Help me understand this logic please...

I work in a Fortune 50 company, my budget for my group is in the tens of millions. When I have underperformers/poor performers/bad employees I have to manage that as a "coach" or manager and I do, through performance plans, action plans, step plans etc. Some people respond and move to the productive employee category, some don't and are separated from the company. Let's say for sake of argument that I personally hired them.

Based on your logic, I'm responsible for everything that happens regardless right? If they don't get better, even though they are on a performance plan that's my fault? If they decide to respond negatively and with lack of discipline after being put on an action plan that is my fault as well? The bottom line is employees are free to make the decisions they want regardless of the circumstances. My job is to manage them based on those decisions and to not put people in situations where they can't succeed. The argument could be made that Shanahan put people in spots to fail, but no manager/coach does that on purpose.. they put them their because you believe in them and you can't give them the hook too early or too late. Sometimes the coach is blamed for too many things that are up to the free will of the people. Honestly, I feel that players who doesn’t show discipline or passion in must win games is a sign of a locker room that doesn’t hold each other accountable more than a coach that doesn’t. Coach Shanahan has proved time and time again he wouldn’t tolerate bad behavior and took grief for it, at what point do you have to look at the players and say the leaders of this team aren’t doing their job?

I don’t believe there is a coach on this earth that could have this team above .500 right now under the same circumstances, if people on here do, I'd love to know who and why they feel that way. I do believe that if we had a few quality players in the secondary we could be above .500 though, so who should I blame for that? We have no cap, we're mid-season where you can’t find quality players and the alternative is to go to a practice squad player who you know will make mistakes as part of the learning curve.. Its damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

Just give this coaching staff some time to continue to build through the draft, pick up some free agents, and keep building.. it will get to where we want to go. Blowing up everything and expecting different results is what we've done that the last 20 years, what makes you think that will work this time?

That is in no way the same as being in such an unstable climate as is the NFL...

[Tulane Skins Fan]

Oh boy... here we go again.

[KingGibbs]

That is in no way the same as being in such an unstable climate as is the NFL...

Yeah, I don't where he got that analogy from. Apples to oranges.

[RedskinParadigm]

What makes you say this? What's the direction of the organization other than stalemate? We're still a losing franchise. We're still going after high priced free agents who don't work out. We've still got an offense that can't score points and a defense that (has gotten worse) can't stop anybody when it matters. Then, we were set on building around Campbell and a solid defense. Now we're planning on building around RG3. Sometimes I think fans confuse the words "change" and "progress", yeah we have new players, but just like back in 2008 we have a bunch of players that wouldn't be starting on other teams.

Also, why is Zorn used as the measuring stick? Lets just admit that he's a bad coach, but Gibbs had this program on the right ship, why are we not meauring Shanny by Gibbs's standards (and yeah, I mean Gibbs 2)? Sad to say that as critical of Gibbs II, he's LEAPS AND BOUNDS better than Shanny. U know what I'd give for a 9-7 record or 10-6 playoff run. Could we repeat history where we went on a 5-0 run to close out the season and make the playoffs in 2005? Its possible, but I don't see it happening. Meanwhile, people act like Shanny's some holy grail of coaching and stability because he's supposedly better than Zorn, when he hasn't even gotten this franchise back to Gibbs's level of success.

What makes me say that W-L record is bad to use as the sole measuring stick for a rebuilding franchise? It's a simple concept, IMO; this team could have taken a bunch of measures to "win now" (going after the 29 year-old Vincent Jackson, the 30 year-old Nnamdi Asomugha, etc.) that probably would have resulted in this team having a better record right now, but would have hurt this team 3-4 years from now, either with ineffectiveness due to age or with cap hits due to needing to be released, when RG3, Kerrigan, Orakpo, Trent Williams, & Alfred Morris (among others) are in or approaching their primes. Shanahan purposefully brought in guys this offseason that will be peaking when RGIII is peaking. He is building a long-term roster around this QB, not independent of him.

Gibbs 2.0 was an excellent coach, but he hitched his wagon to the wrong QB that never would have made this team a consistent contender. Shanahan (1) avoided the deathly mistake of investing long-term in the wrong QB - with McNabb he gave himself an out, Rex/Beck were never given anything more than a 1-2 year backup QB's contract, and he passed on Blaine Gabbert when given the opportunity - and (2) Shanahan made the bold move in order to get RGIII despite not being handed the cleanest opportunity to get him. Those two facts alone set this franchise up with the opportunity to have its most successful sustained runs to the playoffs since Gibbs 1.0 was here.

This is the youngest roster this franchise has had since before Dan Snyder bought the team. It's littered with standout talent 25-and-under (RG3, TW71, Morris, Kerrigan, Orakpo, Garçon when healthy), and 25-and-under talent still developing (Hankerson, Riley, Paul, Helu, LeRibeus, Gettis, Jenkins, Paulsen, Robinson, and on down the list).

I find it sad that so many fans are willing to dump so many young players that show tangible promise on the field ALREADY, let alone throw away draft selections that they've never even see play only 3 months into their careers. This is the very definition of shortsighted.

Now there are definitely things that Gibbs did better than Shanahan; Gibss was a far superior motivator. The team culture he built was

conducive to having every man fighting for each other for the team's best interest. Those teams felt like they were built on franchise pride as opposed to professional obligations, similar to how college programs feel. That allowed Gibbs to rattle off those 4 and 5-game season-ending winning streaks to make the playoffs. Gibbs maximized the talents of his entire team, not just one side of the ball.

But as good as Gibbs was, he would have needed a miracle to win Super Bowls with either Jason Campbell or Mark Brunell at QB. He would have needed his mind 20 years earlier, and we all know he wasn't the same coach in the 2000s that he was in the 1980s. Teams just don't win SBs without stud QBs anymore.

Is Shanahan perfect? No. Has he made mistakes? Absolutely. But even with those mistakes, he has this franchise on its way to having its first sustained success since Gibbs/Beathard ran this team in the 80s. Now Shanahan DOES need to make changes in order to keep progressing, particularly defensively, but he does have the long-term vision for this team that will allow it to be successful for years to come.

It reminds of when Green Bay was 4-12 in the mid-2000s. Brett Favre stood up in a press conference at the end of that season and said "This is the most talented team that I've ever been on." Most people laughed at him. Fast-forward a couple of seasons and Green Bay was in the NFC Title Game getting knocked out in Overtime by the eventual SB champs. Another few seasons, and Green Bay had won their latest SB under the direction of Aaron Rodgers. Those SB and NFC-title teams were composed of many of the same players that were on the same 4-12 team. Sometimes, you've just got to give it time.

[DC9]

It reminds of when Green Bay was 4-12 in the mid-2000s. Brett Favre stood up in a press conference at the end of that season and said "This is the most talented team that I've ever been on." Most people laughed at him. Fast-forward a couple of seasons and Green Bay was in the NFC Title Game getting knocked out in Overtime by the eventual SB champs. Another few seasons, and Green Bay had won their latest SB under the direction of Aaron Rodgers. Those SB and NFC-title teams were composed of many of the same players that were on the same 4-12 team. Sometimes, you've just got to give it time.

You failed to mention a key compenent that changed within the packer organization the year after 4-12... Mike Sherman was sent out and arguably the best playcaller in the National Football League in Mike McCarthey was brought in. The next season they were 8-8 and the season after that 13-3 and so on and so on.

Coaching may not be everything in the NBA, but in football, "90% of the game is half-mental."

[RedskinParadigm]

You failed to mention a key compenent that changed within the packer organization the year after 4-12... Mike Sherman was sent out and arguably the best playcaller in the National Football League in Mike McCarthey was brought in. The next season they were 8-8 and the season after that 13-3 and so on and so on.

Coaching may not be everything in the NBA, but in football, "90% of the game is half-mental."

That they did. McCarthy+Thompson were great hires. I'm not saying that it would be impossible to upgrade over Shanahan (it's not), I'm merely saying that Shanahan has this team on the right track.

The coaching change that would make the greatest difference is for the DC. The correct hire could turn this team into a serious playoff contender next season. That's Shanahan's most critical GMing decision next to trading up for RG3.

[THE HAMMER'IN HOG]

If true Snyder needs to come to the realization that he [snyder] has been so incompetent, and had left this team absolutly devoid of any talent, that Shanny would have been better off starting with a new franchise without any existing players, every player on the roster had to be overhauled and we didn't get our QB until the 3rd year in. Snyder:-] shut up and learn something!

[DC9]

That they did. McCarthy+Thompson were great hires. I'm not saying that it would be impossible to upgrade over Shanahan (it's not), I'm merely saying that Shanahan has this team on the right track.

The coaching change that would make the greatest difference is for the DC. The correct hire could turn this team into a serious playoff contender next season. That's Shanahan's most critical GMing decision next to trading up for RG3.

I agree. See Dom Capers for those resutls (using the same Packers model).

I'm a bit torn on Shanny right now. I agree that he had a monumental task to turn the roster over. He had next to nothing in the cupboard and an unfair FA class the first two years he was here (the restricted tender pre-lockout year and then the lockout year 2010-2011). And then this year, the cap penalty. I got it, that sucks and that is hard.

But I also don't see development and I don't see discipline or smart decisions on the football field, which is where a guy like Mike Shanahan should be thinking to himself, hey... this is the easy part, I've got this. Clock management, stupid penalties, effort, and being outcoached are not excuses that we should be listening to three years into a program insallations. In fact, you shouldn't be "installing" anything at this point, your program should be in more of a "reactionary" mode.

Bottom line for me, I am happy with a lot of the moves made, and I understand the ones that weren't. But I am not happy with the football side of things in terms of what's gone on during actual games. To me, that leaves a lot to be desired and I am not confident Shanahan is the guy for the job and I am also not confident that Shanahan thinks he is the guy for the job anymore.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I'm all for being patient........when I see progress. Unfortunately, I see us progressing in areas that are over-looked by some of you that are important aspects of the game. The amount of penalties, clock management, lack of discipline, team being flat when the coach called it a "must-win" game, etc. Those aspects of the game should be improving in year three regardless of talent level and they haven't.

In fairness...not all progress is linear in the NFL anymore. Teams don't always neatly go from 2-14 to 5-11 to 8-8 to playoff contenders. It still happens sometimes, but you can't look over the horizon of the 2012 NFL like you could in the 1980s and see the next batch of good teams. In 1990, everyone KNEW the Cowboys were about to be great. A couple years later, everyone KNEW the Packers were on the verge of contending. In 2001, did you know the Patriots were about to string together 3 championships in 4 years? In 2007 (and Hell, in December of 2011), could you tell that the Giants were going to win 2 championships in 4 years? It's a more even, uglier version of the NFL these days. Flawed teams win titles.

[DC9]

If true Snyder needs to come to the realization that he [snyder] has been so incompetent' date=' and had left this team absolutly devoid of any talent, that Shanny would have been better off starting with a new franchise without any existing players, every player on the roster had to be overhauled and we didn't get our QB until the 3rd year in. Snyder:-'] shut up and learn something!

So you were okay with the Head Coach of this team saying that we were in "evaluation mode" and packing in the rest of the season?

[RedskinParadigm]

I agree. See Dom Capers for those resutls (using the same Packers model).

I'm a bit torn on Shanny right now. I agree that he had a monumental task to turn the roster over. He had next to nothing in the cupboard and an unfair FA class the first two years he was here (the restricted tender pre-lockout year and then the lockout year 2010-2011). And then this year, the cap penalty. I got it, that sucks and that is hard.

But I also don't see development and I don't see discipline or smart decisions on the football field, which is where a guy like Mike Shanahan should be thinking to himself, hey... this is the easy part, I've got this. Clock management, stupid penalties, effort, and being outcoached are not excuses that we should be listening to three years into a program insallations. In fact, you shouldn't be "installing" anything at this point, your program should be in more of a "reactionary" mode.

Bottom line for me, I am happy with a lot of the moves made, and I understand the ones that weren't. But I am not happy with the football side of things in terms of what's gone on during actual games. To me, that leaves a lot to be desired and I am not confident Shanahan is the guy for the job and I am also not confident that Shanahan thinks he is the guy for the job anymore.

I agree with you. What's funny is that (and I think I'm in the minority on this) I'm more impressed with Shanahan the executive than I am with Shanahan the coach. His talent evaluation has been really good and his long-term vision is setting the table for success for a long time. The lack of discipline and the appeared lack of emotion during some of these games has been shocking to me. That's not what I expected.

[DC9]

I agree with you. What's funny is that (and I think I'm in the minority on this) I'm more impressed with Shanahan the executive than I am with Shanahan the coach. His talent evaluation has been really good and his long-term vision is setting the table for success for a long time. The lack of discipline and the appeared lack of emotion during some of these games has been shocking to me. That's not what I expected.

Nope. I am with you. I think he'd be a decent GM at this point, lol.

But, and this is my opinion/theory, I think he's playing GM and on the sideline decision maker, and letting Kyle play head coach. Just a theory, I have no proof of this... but I think that this alone is one of the bigger problems with his approach. That would explain a lot of the penalties and clock management issues (which are typical of young coaches, even though as a sideline guy you should be on top of this). But, I remember in 2010 and 2011, being at the games, I could tell which drives Mike was calling plays and which drives Kyle was calling plays... and the Mike drives moved down the field better, but the Kyle drives were more plentiful.

So, even though I think it's just subterfuge to get a new deal for Kyle, if he were to go to the Eagles, I think it would be a benefit to the organization because we could either get Mike to become more involved in the offense, or we could get a younger cat in here to call plays and do the gameplan who doesn't have the same last name. Thus, making him more accountable to the Head Coach.

[Coach Janky Spanky]

Wow. Everyone (at least from the 3 pages of this thread that I read) seems to have missed the point.

The Glazer comment wasn't about Snyder being pissed that we're 3-6!!! It was about Snyder being pissed that Shanahan said he's raising the white flag on the season, surrendering playoff hopes, and switching to evaluation. That's a business issue, not a football issue. When the head coach surrenders the season, people are going to be less inclined to go to games and less inclined to tune in.

I'm sure Snyder is unhappy with our record. I don't think he'll fire Shanahan this year or next. But that's a completely separate issue!!!!!!!!

[Thinking Skins]

Just kidding of course, but I'm about to add the word "Cynically" to the front of your ES name.

That's one of the few jokes about my name that I've found amusing.

[Thinking Skins]

What makes me say that W-L record is bad to use as the sole measuring stick for a rebuilding franchise? It's a simple concept, IMO; this team could have taken a bunch of measures to "win now" (going after the 29 year-old Vincent Jackson, the 30 year-old Nnamdi Asomugha, etc.) that probably would have resulted in this team having a better record right now, but would have hurt this team 3-4 years from now, either with ineffectiveness due to age or with cap hits due to needing to be released, when RG3, Kerrigan, Orakpo, Trent Williams, & Alfred Morris (among others) are in or approaching their primes. Shanahan purposefully brought in guys this offseason that will be peaking when RGIII is peaking. He is building a long-term roster around this QB, not independent of him.

You don't kno that it'd hurt this team just like you can't say that not doing those things would help (I kinda agree that those weren't the right moves, but who is to say that drafting more OL and say signing Victor Cruz wouldn't have helped us).

Gibbs 2.0 was an excellent coach, but he hitched his wagon to the wrong QB that never would have made this team a consistent contender. Shanahan (1) avoided the deathly mistake of investing long-term in the wrong QB - with McNabb he gave himself an out, Rex/Beck were never given anything more than a 1-2 year backup QB's contract, and he passed on Blaine Gabbert when given the opportunity - and (2) Shanahan made the bold move in order to get RGIII despite not being handed the cleanest opportunity to get him. Those two facts alone set this franchise up with the opportunity to have its most successful sustained runs to the playoffs since Gibbs 1.0 was here.

Maybe, but maybe not. QB is the most important position on the field, but when your GM is unable to find talent at other positions it means he's playing with a bunch of scrubs and that's not quite the setup for playoffs. Look at what Gibbs 2 did. He took us to the playoffs and handed a playoff team over to Snyder. That Snyder hired an inept coach in Zorn is his own fault, but at that time this franchise was set up for a successful future. And the problem I have with that last sentence is that (unlike Gibbs) Shanny may have lost the team, it seems like they're not playing for him and if you believe the podcast posted earlier, neither are his coaches. That's not a playoff environment.

This is the youngest roster this franchise has had since before Dan Snyder bought the team. It's littered with standout talent 25-and-under (RG3, TW71, Morris, Kerrigan, Orakpo, Garçon when healthy), and 25-and-under talent still developing (Hankerson, Riley, Paul, Helu, LeRibeus, Gettis, Jenkins, Paulsen, Robinson, and on down the list).

Youth is only the first part of it. We also need competition at positions. We don't need Hankerson/Robinson/etc knowing they'll make the team and figured as starters. I want to see our guys competing for starting spots. I want to hear about veterans losing their jobs to young guys. We don't see that unless (a) the veteran is injured and the young guy performs EXCEPTIONALLY (ala Alfred Morris and Fred Davis) or ( the young guy is a first round draft pick (ala Orakpo, Williams, Kerrigan and RG3). Look at Fred Davis as a prime example. He wasn't given a chance til Cooley got hurt and the he becomes a franchise TE. Why wasn't he getting more opportunities before? Was it all part of Shanny's grand scheme to get RG3?

I find it sad that so many fans are willing to dump so many young players that show tangible promise on the field ALREADY, let alone throw away draft selections that they've never even see play only 3 months into their careers. This is the very definition of shortsighted.

I get what you're saying and though it doesn't directly apply to me, I'll comment that I find it sad that so many fans feel so attached to certain players on this team JUST BECAUSE they're on this team. If Hankerson was on the Dolphins people wouldn't know him from Waldo, but the fact that he's on the Skins people talk about hope and optimism and how he needs more chances. I say bring in (legit) competition. If he's meant to be, then he'll beat the guy out. If not, then he gets cut. But when we start the roster with 9 guys competing at WR, but none of them really can show that they're even legit NFL players, then there's something wrong with the guys we're bring in. Same goes for Safety where we had at least 6 guys at that position this summer. I don't believe that NOBODY was available at our price, I'd bet that if I looked at the cheap free agents brought in and the draft picks this year, there are probably quite a few that are playing on legit pass defenses. We shouldn't be married to a guy just because he's on our team. Otherwise how would we grow?

Now there are definitely things that Gibbs did better than Shanahan; Gibss was a far superior motivator. The team culture he built was

conducive to having every man fighting for each other for the team's best interest. Those teams felt like they were built on franchise pride as opposed to professional obligations, similar to how college programs feel. That allowed Gibbs to rattle off those 4 and 5-game season-ending winning streaks to make the playoffs. Gibbs maximized the talents of his entire team, not just one side of the ball.

But as good as Gibbs was, he would have needed a miracle to win Super Bowls with either Jason Campbell or Mark Brunell at QB. He would have needed his mind 20 years earlier, and we all know he wasn't the same coach in the 2000s that he was in the 1980s. Teams just don't win SBs without stud QBs anymore.

If you remember in 2005, we made the divisional round of the playoffs and were a few plays away from making the championship game. Saying that we couldn't have done it without a star QB is like saying that Baltimore won't make it (although they were a missed FG away). Even with all the love for RG3, we can easily say that he'll never be a legit threat for the SB if his only plays are screens and QB draws.

Is Shanahan perfect? No. Has he made mistakes? Absolutely. But even with those mistakes, he has this franchise on its way to having its first sustained success since Gibbs/Beathard ran this team in the 80s. Now Shanahan DOES need to make changes in order to keep progressing, particularly defensively, but he does have the long-term vision for this team that will allow it to be successful for years to come.

Based on what? First sustained success? We're 3-6 right now. I don't call that success. Until he (we) makes changes, I don't see success, and the change should start with Shanny.

It reminds of when Green Bay was 4-12 in the mid-2000s. Brett Favre stood up in a press conference at the end of that season and said "This is the most talented team that I've ever been on." Most people laughed at him. Fast-forward a couple of seasons and Green Bay was in the NFC Title Game getting knocked out in Overtime by the eventual SB champs. Another few seasons, and Green Bay had won their latest SB under the direction of Aaron Rodgers. Those SB and NFC-title teams were composed of many of the same players that were on the same 4-12 team. Sometimes, you've just got to give it time.

The Packers under Mike McCarthy were NEVER 4-12. His WORSE record with them was 6-10, but that was after he went 8-8 and 13-3 which bought him some leeway.