WESH: Deputies shoot, kill man after knocking on wrong door

[Vilandil Tasardur]

I have to agree with HH here.

If you are an innocent man with nothing to hide and someone knocks on your door at 1:30 am you have a couple of much better options than this.

~ Don't answer the door, it MAY be important, or it MAY be a drunk idiot who lost his keys and/or slumped against your wall

~ Arm yourself and walk to the door, but don't open it. Turn the porch light on (or whatever is outside your apartment). Look through the peep hole. Do you recognize them? Are they friends?

~ Call out to the person? "It's very late and I have to work tomorrow, may I ask who is it?"

I'm just saying, if it were me, I would assume a couple of different, positive, scenarios before I assumed burglar. I would assume someone needs help (woman running from a creeper, or just left her apt because she got hit) or someone is mistaken (wrong address or drunk fool). None of these scenarios make it okay for me to open the door and AIM.

I can open the door a crack, just enough to talk or see the person, gun in hand, pointing down, and assertively ask what is going on. Ripping the door open and AIMING the gun at face level, well shoot. And they did.

[Teller]

If they are afraid that the suspect is going to resist arrest, wouldn't it make sense to force their way in and have the element of surprise?

That part I think can be answered pretty simply. There was no warrant, and it wasn't a fresh pursuit.

[Koolblue13]

OK. I get it. You can't argue with what I've actually said. I didn't think so.

If I walk onto your property with a gun in my hand and you point one at me, NO, I am not allowed to shoot you. That's illegal.

That was the only thing you said that was worth a response right? The rest was babble?

[Teller]

If I walk onto your property with a gun in my hand and you point one at me, NO, I am not allowed to shoot you. That's illegal.

That was the only thing you said that was worth a response right? The rest was babble?

Um, no. I was sincere in talking about heroes and the fact that they never make mistakes.

(Oh yeah, wait. No I wasn't.)

[MisterPinstripe]

Encroaching? Really? Which states have laws against walking onto someone's porch and knocking on their door?

And I'm sorry, if you draw down on someone, it's kill or be killed. And damned skippy I'm going to try like hell to get a round off before you do.

I said nothing of the sort, and you know that damned good and well. It's a shame you have to resort to the tactics of less-educated, less-equipped-to-debate people and fabricate **** just for the sake of being able to argue with it.

It doesn't matter WHO you are, cop or not, if someone points a gun at you, you have the right to kill them. (I hope you were able to see that that time.)

I have problems too. So I can just draw down on whoever I choose and expect people not to defend themselves? Sweet.

You cannot go around pointing your gun at people and avoid getting arrested. That changes if you are on your own property. The police made a mistake and ended up killing a guy because of it.

There is no state law saying you cant go on someones property and knock on their door. But you also dont have the right to then shoot them if they show up to the door with a gun.

[DjTj]

That part I think can be answered pretty simply. There was no warrant, and it wasn't a fresh pursuit.

Without a warrant, they would only have been able to arrest the suspect if he was in clear sight, right? Even if someone let them into the home they would need permission to do any kind of search?

What did they hope to accomplish by knocking on the door? They just hoped to get lucky and have the suspect open the door? Why not monitor the apartment and wait for the suspect to appear, or try to get a warrant?

Knocking on the door seems like a high risk/low reward move.

[MisterPinstripe]

Without a warrant, they would only have been able to arrest the suspect if he was in clear sight, right? Even if someone let them into the home they would need permission to do any kind of search?

What did they hope to accomplish by knocking on the door? They just hoped to get lucky and have the suspect open the door? Why not monitor the apartment and wait for the suspect to appear, or try to get a warrant?

Knocking on the door seems like a high risk/low reward move.

And arent they required to identify themselves?

[jb4348]

If it was me I would have asked who it was before I even opened the door ESP at that hour. If they didn't tell me or I felt threatened then I would have called the police and would tell whoever was at the door that cops were coming. Either way I am not opening my door to someone knocking on it at 130 in the morning. I am not sure if the its my property and I can protect it comes into play when it's an apartment and you don't own anything you rent it. I am not sure of that though. It's a shame it happened but I know I wouldn't open my door.

[Larry]

It's not "loyalty." It's an honest evaluation of the facts. I don't care if they're cops or not. If someone, again legally, knocks on someone else's door (cop or not) and finds a gun in their face, they have every right to defend themselves with deadly force.

Including the homeowner?

Does your "see gun, shoot" philosophy also justify the homeowner shooting the people on the porch who are pointing guns at him?

[Prosperity]

And arent they required to identify themselves?

There isn't a knock and announce requirement (constitutionally, though states may have their own laws) anymore. Additionally, there are some reasons that the cops would want to knock on the house. If they hear people shuffling around inside the house, they can say that it was an exigent circumstance exception to the warrant requirement (oh look people are in trouble inside, we have to bust in to help them).

[Hersh]

And I'm sorry, if you draw down on someone, it's kill or be killed. And damned skippy I'm going to try like hell to get a round off before you do.

My first thought, someone's else who has been watching Roadhouse. It's been on a lot recently.

[Teller]

Including the homeowner?

Does your "see gun, shoot" philosophy also justify the homeowner shooting the people on the porch who are pointing guns at him?

If they are pointing their weapons at him, without identifying? Absolutely.

(Sorry to burst your lil theory there, Kool.)

[DjTj]

If they are pointing their weapons at him, without identifying? Absolutely.

(Sorry to burst your lil theory there, Kool.)

So you're saying that the homeowner did the right thing by coming to the door with his gun drawn, but his mistake was not shooting first?

[Vilandil Tasardur]

So you're saying that the homeowner did the right thing by coming to the door with his gun drawn, but his mistake was not shooting first?

HIs mistake was POINTING the gun at the person knocking. If he kept it low by his leg, or even behind the door as he opened it a tad and peeked out, the police would have been able to speak to him and had an interaction. At that point, it MAY or MAY NOT have escalated, but at least a conversation would have transpired. By opening the door with the gun raised, aimed, and at eye level, he was in essence delivering the message that he was ready and willing to kill. Now, he may NOT have been willing, but the message he was portraying is that he was. And that made the cops react in a truly tragic manner.

[Teller]

So you're saying that the homeowner did the right thing by coming to the door with his gun drawn, but his mistake was not shooting first?

That's not what I'm saying at all.

I'm saying if the roles were reversed, and the homeowner found himself with a gun in his face, and people who had not identified themselves as police officers, I'd fully support him defending himself with deadly force.

[Predicto]

Tragic story. I wish I knew enough details to have an informed opinion.

oh hell why not stir the pot anyway. Sure is nice to see more evidence that having lots and lots of handguns around makes everyone safer.

[Teller]

oh hell why not stir the pot anyway. Sure is nice to see more evidence that having lots and lots of handguns around makes everyone safer.

It's one anecdotal incident. Isn't that how y'all dismiss it every time an illegal commits a crime.

[DjTj]

HIs mistake was POINTING the gun at the person knocking. If he kept it low by his leg, or even behind the door as he opened it a tad and peeked out, the police would have been able to speak to him and had an interaction. At that point, it MAY or MAY NOT have escalated, but at least a conversation would have transpired. By opening the door with the gun raised, aimed, and at eye level, he was in essence delivering the message that he was ready and willing to kill. Now, he may NOT have been willing, but the message he was portraying is that he was. And that made the cops react in a truly tragic manner.

Where does the article say that his gun was raised, aimed, and at eye level?

---------- Post added July-17th-2012 at 12:14 PM ----------

That's not what I'm saying at all.

I'm saying if the roles were reversed, and the homeowner found himself with a gun in his face, and people who had not identified themselves as police officers, I'd fully support him defending himself with deadly force.

The article doesn't say where the police were holding their guns. Maybe they had their guns drawn, and he saw that through his peephole? We are missing a lot of facts here.

[Bang]

I bet he'd be alive if he didn't have his gun for "protection".

~Bang

[Vilandil Tasardur]

Where does the article say that his gun was raised, aimed, and at eye level?

---------- Post added July-17th-2012 at 12:14 PM ----------

The article doesn't say where the police were holding their guns. Maybe they had their guns drawn, and he saw that through his peephole? We are missing a lot of facts here.

I can most certainly concede that. The article does say that when the door opened, he was "pointing the gun" at them. I am certainly guilty of interpreting that to be more than is definitively stated, but I do not feel that my message is different. I do not believe the door opened and a gun was pointing at their toes. My suspicion from the wording of this article is that the gun "pointing" at them means torso or face level. Otherwise I would assume the gun would be pointing at the ground, not at the officers. However, I am certainly making assumptions. Nevertheless, I do not believe my assumptions are outlandish given the information.

It's also unlikely that more information will ever be revealed. The only living witnesses appear to be the cops, and we have their side of the story. While I agree with you that we are missing a great deal of facts, I would mention two points.

1) When faced with a cloudy picture of the events, I will err on the side of the law enforcement until proven otherwise. Perhaps this is misguided, but I believe that the burden falls on someone to prove the cops acted wrong rather than right.

2) We will most likely never get much more information out of this story. So a decision must be made (whether to accuse and try the police) based on what we know.

[fullnelson9999]

Hindsight is 20/20 guys.

Shoulda, coulda, woulda. You can break down what happened all you want, but the whole series of events probably didn't take that long to unfold. In innocent man got shot in his house. That's the problem here.

It's too easy to sit at the computer and redo the past.

[Mad Mike]

Never aim a weapon in the direction of something you don't intend to destroy. Period.

Let's say the guy is clueless they're cops. (And apparently he was.) Is it standard procedure to open your door and make someone stare down your barrell before you ease up a little?

And spare me the "he thought someone was breaking in" routine. Someone up to know good isn't going to knock.

Sucks they knocked on the wrong door, but good shoot, IMO.

You had a reasonable point to say there is no need (nor is it good practice) to open the door pointing the gun at whoever is knocking. Down and ready would be best. But to say bad guys wouldn't knock is just wrong. With a well locked home, knocking on the door then busting in when someone opens it would be a logical way to force entry.

As for the cops picking the wrong door, as I understand it, the motorcycle belonging to the real suspect was parked in front of the door they knocked on. Which, along with the gun is why they thought they had the right guy and opened fire.

All that said, I'm not a big believer in un-avoidable accidents and while the man who was killed could have done better by keeping his weapon out of sight, IMO the bulk of responsibility here falls on the professionals. It might have been ok to knock without identifying themselves if they *knew* they had the right door. But to assume they had the right house with so many other doors around was a little lazy. For things to have gone down as the cops say, they would have had to have had weapons drawn and ready as well. Again, if you *know* you have the right door, all is as it should be. But if you *dont* know, cover any exits, don't stand in front of the door, and announce yourselves. If something bad happens, you are still safe, the bad guy is trapped, and *then* you can react. JMO.

[mistertim]

Where does the article say that his gun was raised, aimed, and at eye level?

Yeah as far as I can tell it just said the guy was "pointing the gun at the deputies". As I said before I give the cops the benefit of the doubt in general but that is relatively vague and could be open to interpretation. We'll never know for sure though.

[Predicto]

It's one anecdotal incident. Isn't that how y'all dismiss it every time an illegal commits a crime.

You are right. Anecdotes are not useful.

The rate of death from firearms in the United States is eight times higher than that in its economic counterparts in other parts of the world.

Kellermann AL and Waeckerle JF. Preventing Firearm Injuries. Ann Emerg Med July 1998; 32:77-79.

The overall firearm-related death rate among U.S. children younger than 15 years of age is nearly 12 times higher than among children in 25 other industrialized countries combined.

Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, 1997;46:101-105.

Wheeeeee!!!

[pjfootballer]

Both parties were at fault:

The Cops actually knocked on the door. If this mission was so super secret and they didn't want the murder suspect to know that it was them, why didn't they just break downt the door? They should have identified themselves and gave who they thought was the murder suspect, time to give himself up.

The Victim had every right to be scared at 1:30 in the morning and he did not know who it was. But like someone else mentioned, why would a burgler knock on the door? He should have stood off to the side and asked who was at the door instead of assuming it was someone bad. If the cops chose not to identify themselves after he asked, he could have said to them, "I'm armed, so go away." At least keep dialog until things were figured out.