Bang Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 As to why the burglar may knock.. . sometimes they do that to see who's not at home. When I was a kid living in apartments, my place got broken into and burgled, and the guys who did it were caught because the idiots went around knocking on doors til someone didn't answer. Course the neighbors easily identified them. Crooks aren't always so smart. Guns guns guns guns guns. We are so safe as a result. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 It's not "loyalty." It's an honest evaluation of the facts. I don't care if they're cops or not. If someone, again legally, knocks on someone else's door (cop or not) and finds a gun in their face, they have every right to defend themselves with deadly force.---------- Post added July-17th-2012 at 11:07 AM ---------- What were they supposed to do? A suspected murderer's bike was parked in front of the apartment. They knock on the apartment door. They find a gun in their faces. "Woops, pardon me, sir, but do you have any Grey Poupon?" GTFO. What were they supposed to do? Not murder an innocent man in his own home. I am not a fan of tactics that value an officers life above my families. My wife and child are not worth less than a police officers. I am not worth less than a police officer. Tactics should not be drawn up so that the immediate price of their mistake is someone completely innocent. They sign up and the risk should be on them. Knock, announce, and deal with it. Too risky? Become an accountant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No_Pressure Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Armed, and aiming the weapon at the person, are two different things. If you blindly answer your door, pointing a gun at someone, you're an idiot. Scenario No. 2: Nervous police officers go out to arrest an attempted homicide suspect at 1:30 AM, the "suspect" answers the door with a gun in his hand but NOT pointed at the police officer. The officer is extremely startled as anybody would be whether the gun is pointed at him or not and draws his weapon. I don't know what happens next- sleepy confused startled man in his home sees 2 strangers drawing weapons on his and lifts his as well since the officers didn't identify themselves as such, perhaps the homeowner made a slight movement and the very nervous officer opened fire. Afterwards the cops get their story straight. "The man aimed a gun at us" they say, protecting themselves. It isn't difficult to say since the officers are the only witnesses and the man IS holding a gun. We're supposed to trust cops, but I seem to recall another story where police officers were caught talking to each other trying to get their stories straight before somebody showed up to question them. I believe in that case they had shot a man in his own home after he called police for help because somebody was breaking in. Regardless, the story sounds like a bunch of mistakes all around. A mistake in the address to begin with, it IS a mistake to open a door with a gun in your hand regardless of if it is your right to do so, and it was a mistake for the cops to start blasting away. I used to live in a ****ty apartment complex and I did from time to time get knocks at my door later than expected. I answered the door with the chain across it AFTER looking out the peep hole and my shotgun wasn't in my hand, but it was within arms reach just in case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teller Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 What were they supposed to do? Not murder an innocent man in his own home. You're armed. I point a gun at you. What do you do? (Keep in mind that you can't shoot me, because by your standard, I'm innocent.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I bet he'd be alive if he didn't have his gun for "protection".~Bang You sure about that? What if he was holding a cell phone and "bring it up" (to his head to call 911). What if he threw something at them in a panic or ran at them? What if he had a bat and charged at them? The problem here isn't that the innocent man in his own damn house happened to own a fire arm. If it makes you feel better though we can ignore the obvious and chat about those darn guns though. It's certainly more pleasant to have that discussion than to linger on the idea that our heroes employ tactics that transfer the risk from them to the communities they are charged to protect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RVAbrendan Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Did the article specify whether or not the police had their weapons equipped when the door was opened? Or were they armed in reaction to the man? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 You're armed. I point a gun at you. What do you do?(Keep in mind that you can't shoot me, because by your standard, I'm innocent.) You skipped over the part where you broke into my home unannounced. Kind of an important part because these men weren't on equal footing. The police officers had exactly no legal right to be in this man's home at all. They decided that it was less risky to come in unannounced and as a result they killed an innocent man in his own home. Had they knocked and said "POLICE, OPEN THE DOOR IMMEDIATELY!" this man is likely alive today. Sadly that makes it harder for the police officers to do their jobs... so we'll risk killing entirely innocent people instead. Great idea! I wonder if you'd be so ready to right this off had the innocent civilian killed the police officers. This guy that's dead didn't agree to take a risk in exchange for power and a gun. He didn't have the luxury of double checking addresses or deciding how to deal with this situation in advance. He didn't choose to scream or not scream "police". He was faced with armed assailants entering his home and he had to react. You want to blame the victim? Disgusting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teller Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 You skipped over the part where you broke into my home unannounced. Kind of an important part because these men weren't on equal footing. The police officers had exactly no legal right to be in this man's home at all. They decided that it was less risky to come in unannounced and as a result they killed an innocent man in his own home. Had they knocked and said "POLICE, OPEN THE DOOR IMMEDIATELY!" this man is likely alive today. Sadly that makes it harder for the police officers to do their jobs... so we'll risk killing entirely innocent people thinking they were about to be murdered (rightly I might add). I wonder if you'd be so ready to right this off had the innocent civilian killed the police officers. Could you show me in the story where it says they broke in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 You sure about that? What if he was holding a cell phone and "bring it up" (to his head to call 911). What if he threw something at them in a panic or ran at them? What if he had a bat and charged at them? The problem here isn't that the innocent man in his own damn house happened to own a fire arm. If it makes you feel better though we can ignore the obvious and chat about those darn guns though. It's certainly more pleasant to have that discussion than to linger on the idea that our heroes employ tactics that transfer the risk from them to the communities they are charged to protect. Lots of what ifs... But they shot him for having his gun. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 "When we knocked on the door, the door opened and the occupant of that apartment was pointing a gun at deputies, and that's when we opened fire and killed him," Lt. John Herrell said. "Even though this subject is not the one we were looking for when he opened the door. He was pointing the gun at the deputy and if you put yourselves in the deputy's shoes. They were there to pick up someone who was wanted for an attempted homicide."Read more: http://www.wesh.com/news/central-florida/Deputies-shoot-kill-man-after-knocking-on-wrong-door/-/11788162/15527202/-/euk6tg/-/index.html#ixzz20uH77hVb That sounds like complete bull**** to me. Who opens the door while being scared, at the same pointing a gun at the person standing outside? I don't believe this is what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterPinstripe Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I bet he'd be alive if he didn't have his gun for "protection".~Bang I bet he would still be alive if the police hadnt of blown him away. Plus guns are usual for protection against criminals. You dont expect the police to be waiting at the door and kill you when you open it with your gun. And thats a pretty bad argument against guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Could you show me in the story where it says they broke in? They were hostile, on his property, banging on the door at 1:30am. Did you expect the man to answer the door with a plate of cookies? I don't accept this idea that homeowners should be psychic when police are involved. Officers responding to an uncertain situation need to accept that they may be wrong and that the homeowner may panic. The very least they could have done is announced themselves. Why didn't they? "Officials said the deputies did not identify themselves because of safety reasons." Well I'm glad those safety protocols were in place. I'd hate to see what would happen if they had just been reckless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinInsite Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 At least this time the police didn't claim a 90 year old woman in a wheel chair went all John Wooy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teller Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 They were hostile, on his property, banging on the door at 1:30am. Did you expect the man to answer the door with a plate of cookies? No, but I would expect you to argue at least somewhat honestly. I didn't see the "hostile" door knock mentioned either. But whatever. Seems like this is pretty cut and dried, sans all the speculation and outright falsification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 At least this time the police didn't claim a 90 year old woman in a wheel chair went all John Wooy. I was thinking about that incident as well. And then I flashed back that we had a thread on ES about it. http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?181843-AP-Woman-92-Dies-in-Shootout-With-Police It's a pretty entertaining read. Definitely some serious self ownage on the last page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterPinstripe Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Lots of what ifs...But they shot him for having his gun. ~Bang So they shot him for doing something legal... I guess if they police shoot you while doing something we should stop doing it, even if they are in the wrong. I dont really care if you dont like guns for whatever reason, the fact of the matter is what he was doing was perfectly legal. And he was killed for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 At least this time the police didn't claim a 90 year old woman in a wheel chair went all John Wooy. Shot each one of them once in a non lethal area IIRC. The media initially noted that part of the story and then dropped it. Way too ugly to consider exactly how they all manage to have a single non lethal gun shot wound in the wake of killing a 90 year old woman. There was also the illegal alien that was beaten to death in PA where the cops tried to say the victim started a "me against all of you" fight... only to have it turn out that the cops conspired with the murderers so they could get away with it. In this case a entirely unrelated home owner is dead... and still the police can do no wrong. Frankly we should just stop pretending and accept the fascism. When a cop looks at you the only thing you can do is fall down and beg for mercy. Anything else is a threat and warrants you being shot dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky21 Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Hog, IMHO you're wrong about this one. "The bottom line is, you point a gun at a deputy sheriff or police office, you're going to get shot," Lt. John Herrell said. Probably not the best public statement there lieutenant. If the cops were in the right they don’t need to worry about the wrongful death lawsuit that is sure to be coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 So they shot him for doing something legal... I guess if they police shoot you while doing something we should stop doing it, even if they are in the wrong. I dont really care if you dont like guns for whatever reason, the fact of the matter is what he was doing was perfectly legal. And he was killed for it. Crossing the road in front of a speeding truck when you have right of way is perfectly legal too. Brandishing a gun contributed to his own death. It didn't protect him. It hugely escalated the stakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWFLSkins Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 If it's me, I probably don't answer the door. If I do, I don't own a gun, but I have a bat nearby, and the storm door is always locked so it's an extra barrier someone would have to get through. Uhm, one problem with all the discussion going on. I don't answer the door until I identify who is knocking, and I am armed and announce that I am armed, again this is from training in the CWP course here in Florida. You don't kill to protect property, you protect yourself, how is opening the door protecting yourself? I hear a knock at the door and I say who is it? They don't answer and I announce I am armed and calling the cops, period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterPinstripe Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Crossing the road in front of a speeding truck when you have right of way is perfectly legal too.Brandishing a gun contributed to his own death. It didn't protect him. It hugely escalated the stakes. Yes, and the truck driver would be in the wrong. As are the cops in this situation. So because the cops got the wrong house and killed an innocent man, its his own fault for having a gun in his hand when he opened his door at 1:30 AM? Legally? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Yes, and the truck driver would be in the wrong. As are the cops in this situation. So because the cops got the wrong house and killed an innocent man, its his own fault for having a gun in his hand when he opened his door at 1:30 AM? Legally? The truck driver and the cops are in the wrong. Stepping out in front of a speeding truck, while legal is bad for your health. Pointing a gun at police is also apparently bad for your health. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
China Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 Stepping out in front of a speeding truck, while legal is bad for your health. To paraphrase the rhyme my parents taught me: Here lies the body of Johnny O'Day Who died Preserving His Right of Way. He was Right, Dead Right, as he walked along But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I bet he would still be alive if the police hadnt of blown him away.Plus guns are usual for protection against criminals. You dont expect the police to be waiting at the door and kill you when you open it with your gun. And thats a pretty bad argument against guns. There's no argument. He had his gun, and now he's dead because he had his gun. Is this arguable? ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Yes, and the truck driver would be in the wrong. As are the cops in this situation. So because the cops got the wrong house and killed an innocent man, its his own fault for having a gun in his hand when he opened his door at 1:30 AM? Legally? As I read it, Bang wasn't saying that anything was the guy's fault. All he was saying is that having all these guns around don't appear to be making us live longer. I tend to agree with him, at least with regard to handguns. People may have a legal right to have handguns in their house, but I think they are making themselves and their families less safe, not more safe when they choose to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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