GHH laid totally bare with his fanhood on the line: Why it's best for our team to lose out the rest of the 2011 season.

[Mr. Sinister]

Putting myself in GHH's shoes, wanting the team to lose out because you think it's best (intellectually) for the team does not imply to me that a fan must root for his team to lose (emotionally). It implies mixed feelings about wins and losses, making it very difficult to feel sad or happy about any outcome.

That's exactly how I feel.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Putting myself in GHH's shoes, wanting the team to lose out because you think it's best (intellectually) for the team does not imply to me that a fan must root for his team to lose (emotionally). It implies mixed feelings about wins and losses, making it very difficult to feel sad or happy about any outcome.

Of, please, get out of my head.

Thank you man. Very succinctly put and a very astute observation of what I've been trying to express at different times in this thread from the OP on out.

So what happens when the fans call for Shanahan's head when he only gets 3 wins tanking this year and then gets fired? I want to see progress and so far I think I have. We need a QB no doubt, but there is more missing than just that.

Aside from the fact I honestly feel his job is safe from the man that matters regardless of the W/L columns, would you be calling fro his head man?

Hail.

[SWFLSkins]

Aside from the fact I honestly feel his job is safe from the man that matters regardless of the W/L columns, would you be calling fro his head man?

Hail.

You feel his job is safe, but know that people will call for his head if the team goes 3-13 this year. How Snyder handles that is unknown. I hope he sees the progress made and stays the course.

[Est.1974]

Putting myself in GHH's shoes, wanting the team to lose out because you think it's best (intellectually) for the team does not imply to me that a fan must root for his team to lose (emotionally). It implies mixed feelings about wins and losses, making it very difficult to feel sad or happy about any outcome.

OF, do you think it is intellectual to make that call with 10 regular season games to go, with a record of 3-3 to date ?

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

I appreciate there'd be Redskins fans calling for his head, and doubtless the media would pile in (ANY excuse the Post can get. And that would be gold for them); but I honestly believe the owners fully sold on the 5 year plan, and results these first 2 or 3 years really don't ultimately matter much so long as the HC and GM are following through with the rebuild aspect of that plan and he's seeing progress there. Not to mention no doubt he'd be salivating at the prospect of one of the real top QB's if it played out like that.

But again, would you be calling for his head being as you posed the thought?

Hail.

[Oldfan]

OF' date=' do you think it is intellectual to make that call with 10 regular season games to go, with a record of 3-3 to date ?[/quote']No, I don't. But, I think the arguments based on psychology I've read opposed to the notion are pretty dumb.

[pimpumd]

Putting myself in GHH's shoes, wanting the team to lose out because you think it's best (intellectually) for the team does not imply to me that a fan must root for his team to lose (emotionally). It implies mixed feelings about wins and losses, making it very difficult to feel sad or happy about any outcome.

I'll respectfully disagree. I think it was Henry that mentioned it early on but I think this is becoming way over-intellectualized. Here's how I look at it. If you want your team to win, you root for them to win. If you want your team to lose, you root for them to lose. It's a little much IMO to want the team to lose but at the same time ask that those losses occur under a specific set of circumstances (i.e. the losses should only occur with 100% effort from all players, no detriment to team morale, etc.).

I understand the position intellectually. However, practically speaking, this is sports and if you're wanting or asking a team to lose games, you also have to accept the circumstances under which you get those losses. I think most people would agree that it's not likely that this team will lose its remaining 10 games unless there are some extreme, extenuating circumstances (such as tanking, players not giving 100%, injuries to an unimaginable extent, etc.). Accordingly, IMO, if you're being realistic and wanting/asking the team to lose its remaining games, you're kind forced into wishing some form of ill-will on the team. All of this is of course moot if you really think the Skins have a good chance at losing the next 10 in a row.

So I guess it's my opinion that if you want 10 consecutive losses without any of the adverse effects to the team/coaching staff/organization/etc., you're being entirely unrealistic. What's the point in even thinking about such a scenario if it's likely not feasible? An intellectual exercise? I think everyone would agree that a higher pick in the draft is better than a lower pick.

In conclusion, I will agree with this. It would be better for the team if they lost all their remaining games, while at the same time the coaches were still giving it 100%, all the players were giving it 100%, the team suffered no terrible injuries, there's no hit to the team morale from losing 12 games in a row, the coaches don't lose the locker room, our players still want to play here and for this FO, free agents are not dissuaded from coming here due to the 12 consecutive losses, we get the draft pick we need to obtain a franchise QB, that QB wants to play here, that QB pans out and is exactly what we needed to turn this team into an annual contender. That all sounds great, but how realistic is it?

[GSF]

I appreciate there'd be Redskins fans calling for his head, and doubtless the media would pile in (ANY excuse the Post can get. And that would be gold for them); but I honestly believe the owners fully sold on the 5 year plan, and results these first 2 or 3 years really don't ultimately matter much so long as the HC and GM are following through with the rebuild aspect of that plan and he's seeing progress there. Not to mention no doubt he'd be salivating at the prospect of one of the real top QB's if it played out like that.

But again, would you be calling for his head being as you posed the thought?

Hail.

This post is so completely detatched from reality it's amazing. I can't believe anyone is buying this crap. Going 0 - 12 after starting off 9 - 13 is not progress no matter what your 5 year plan is to rebuild, especially when your team believed it was competitive at the beginning of year 2. That's not progress, that's epic collapse. That's a huge step backwards no matter how hard the young players play. That's players and fans losing faith in the team, the team losing revenues, and the coach losing his job. No way in hell Snyder doesn't fire Shanny after that kind of collapse, no matter what the plan is. Snyder would be absolutely insane to continue with Shanny after that kind of failure.

Now stop deflecting and show me where you adressed any of the points I made in my post last night. Maybe i missed it, just tell me a post number.

[Est.1974]

No, I don't. But, I think the arguments based on psychology I've read opposed to the notion are pretty dumb.

Nah, me neither.

I didn't think you'd buy the psychology stuff. You had a thread on that....(or something to that effect ?)

[GSF]

I hope that is not aimed at me ... the Cowboys fan thing ... I am not inferring anything I was just saying the kind of football fan who would hope the REDSKINS loose 12 games straight would be a Cowboys or Eagles fan or a Gaints fan -- just not someome who supports the Skins ...

What is insulting is despite being faced with the same point over and over again and him avoiding it or plainly doging the question - it aggrivates people and then you get what for the world seems to be a clique who supports him and a couple of others of the prominant posters without adding anything .

GSF maybe took it too far but 38 pages in and GHH has not said anything more logical or insightful than the "Suck for Luck" crowd did at durring the preseason - if that is all it was then WTF ...

But insted of actually ignoring the insult (which was extremly mild) and actually comming up with a response to GSF's points which would have made him look foolish, GSF, GHH responds with this:

If your sane and reasoned (as a person, not on which side of the debate you fall on here as both have there merits); you'd see it for exactly what it was.

If you share the originators view point, you'd run with it. The ol' 'the more **** you throw, some's gona' stick' theory.

Hail.

Which is school yard **** seriously - answear just one of his points - or one of the other peoples points put forward ; that is other than possibly gaining a slightly better chance to grab a highly touted QB who might be the next Payton Manning or Alki Smith what does loosing the next 10 (12 straight) games do us given all the negativity that comes with it ...is the best we can hope for is we MIGHT get a decent QB then that is a pathetic reason ? ... and as an aside what is the point of telling the world that as a Redskins fan that is what you hope happens ,. I have no problem with you having that oppinion but if you are going to come on a message board and tell the world about it at least be prepared to defend it ....and engage with people who question it ..... which you really haven't done .

Lets not forget the title of this thread . You made this about YOU -"Your fanhood laid bare" - So lets not childishly insult or lash out at people who come after you for what is fundementally a discussion point with what is fundementally nothing we have not heard before and flawed logic .

But that is exactly what you want us to do again . So how can you critise what has happened in the past when we sucked when you are activly cheering for that to happen again ? If we loose 12 in a row there will not be alot of this team left for Luck or whoever to lead as the shouts for heads to roll will be deffening - is that what you are really chearing for - to blow it up again (as we have seemingly done every couple of seasons) -- untill when somehow a 2 year old team catches fire and makes it to the superbowl ???

But then I think Henry answeared you best with .

These are not the same old Redskins . The problems and the issues they have for most part go back a couple of seasons to where Shanahan was brought in to lead the team . As much as you want to put what happened in 1994 to what is happening now then you cannot - there is no logic to that at all .

Hmmm....maybe I'm not crazy afterall

---------- Post added October-27th-2011 at 08:01 PM ----------

BTW i don't usually insult anyone in here. GHH just really rubs me the wrong way with his arrogant, condencending, hippocritical posts. Looks like I'm not the only one that feels that way. Addicted's rant was epic.

[Oldfan]

pimpumd ~ I'll respectfully disagree. I think it was Henry that mentioned it early on but I think this is becoming way over-intellectualized. Here's how I look at it. If you want your team to win, you root for them to win. If you want your team to lose, you root for them to lose.

I think you have moved from over-analyzed to simplistic, skipping over the right answer in between.

I can empathize with GHH because I've been there. I couldn't enjoy the success of our 2005 team because I could foresee that the policies that produced it... trading up in the draft, bringing in high profile free agents, and trading picks for veterans... were doomed to fail long term because it violated the principles of basic economics.

I couldn't bring myself to root for that 2005 team to fail, nor could I rejoice that the 2006 team did. I could only watch with muted emotions. That 6-10 finish in 2006 was the best thing that could have happened for our franchise. It caused Gibbs to question his policies. The negative effects of those dumb personnel policies (2004-2006) were still being felt four years later, but it could have been worse.

It's a little much IMO to want the team to lose but at the same time ask that those losses occur under a specific set of circumstances (i.e. the losses should only occur with 100% effort from all players, no detriment to team morale, etc.).

I think your side in this argument exaggerates the negative. You can lose games by using the season as a means to find and develop young players. Shanny gave us an 80% rebuild this offseason. He could have given us a 100% rebuild, given us a chance to add more useful players, and lost more games without asking coaches or players to purposely lose.

Many of the negative arguments in this thread are built on the notion that a lack of self-confidence causes losing. That's backwards; it confuses cause and effect. Losing causes a lack self-confidence.

The roster of an 0-16 team knows it needs to improve to win. The roster of an 8-8 team knows it need to improve to win more. The only way to do that is to improve the coaching and/or the personnel.

[Henry]

Jason Campbell was drafted in 2005 and thought to be the future franchise QB.

When it became apparent that that wasn't going to work out, Our number one plus other picks were offered for Jay Cutler.

My point was that lack of top picks hasn't been the reason we've lacked a franchise QB, rather it's front-office mismanagement. I know we've TRIED to get a QB over that span, we just haven't succeeded. Though again, not for lack of draft position.

Putting myself in GHH's shoes, wanting the team to lose out because you think it's best (intellectually) for the team does not imply to me that a fan must root for his team to lose (emotionally). It implies mixed feelings about wins and losses, making it very difficult to feel sad or happy about any outcome.

It sure would have been nice to know before post #573 of this thread because I would have gotten a lot more work done yesterday.

[Jumbo]

Since I have been PM'ed by a couple of members on the matter, let me request that while keeping with the spirited debate we like here, posters choose their words in attack carefully.

Even if engaged in some appropriately harsh "back-n-forth" at times---"appropriately" in terms of reasonable (including castigating) reaction to what someone else posted and with all phrasing remaining within the rules of the forum. Let me advise that there has been some dancing up close to the line.

For everyone's benefit who is enjoying the thread, including the feisty exchanges, try not to go too far in insult. If I have to enforce a rule in fairness to others who have received penalties, I will. Thanks.

[SWFLSkins]

I appreciate there'd be Redskins fans calling for his head, and doubtless the media would pile in (ANY excuse the Post can get. And that would be gold for them); but I honestly believe the owners fully sold on the 5 year plan, and results these first 2 or 3 years really don't ultimately matter much so long as the HC and GM are following through with the rebuild aspect of that plan and he's seeing progress there. Not to mention no doubt he'd be salivating at the prospect of one of the real top QB's if it played out like that.

But again, would you be calling for his head being as you posed the thought?

Hail.

No I would not, and I hope he stays the course and gets it right (within say six years). I think the Redskins have suffered from so much FO turnover and system changes. I still believe that Mike Shanahan can put a very competitive team on the field.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

No I would not, and I hope he stays the course and gets it right (within say six years). I think the Redskins have suffered from so much FO turnover and system changes. I still believe that Mike Shanahan can put a very competitive team on the field.

Personally speaking, that's great to hear.

Hail.

[Louskins9193]

To the OP point, even if we lose out the rest of our games its no guarantee that the QB we draft next year will be a franchise player aka Brees, Brady, Manning. I would rather play my guts out every week and build chemistry, cohesiveness and teamwork and let the chips fall where they may and move on from there. Who's to say we don't trade for a great QB next year, look at the Saints they jumped on Brees and the rest is history. Its the teams that take advantage of the opportunities that present themselves at the right time that usually become winners and these days in the NFL its very fleeting to be a winner and stay there for any length of time.

[PCS]

Let me advise that there has been some dancing up close to the line.

[bedlamVR]

It was. But the Cowboys line was more tongue in cheek, and supposed to be funny. You know, the whole being called a Cowboy fan is worse than insulting a person kind of gist? I need to work on my comedic touch.

I think there are plenty of people who are adding things to this conversation. Including you, GSF (minus the insults), Henry, GHH, et al. Some of you have different view points. Having read this thread, I'd say he's addressed every concern with how he feels about the situation, and I haven't seen him avoid anything. I also think that you guys have brought up great points. Not sure why it needs to be this heated. You disagree. That's okay!

What I took out of it was quite different, actually. Basically, the way I understood it, was that he's so numb now to being bad, that he's indifferent. He doesn't cheer for us to win, because it hurts draft position and puts us in the never ending mediocrity cycle because its likely nothing will come from the wins other than more mediocre seasons. He doesn't cheer for us to lose, either, because he's a fan, but he sees the benefit to losing and believes it far outweighs the positive of finishing 8-8.

Look, that's not my cup of tea, either. But in a way, he's right. Losing, with our competent FO structure will allow us to fill the holes that need to be filled more efficiently.

Just because he said its best for the team doesn't mean he's actively cheering for it to happen, or advocating that the players quit.

Now, if the team went 10-0 the rest of the way, and played extremely good football, I'd bet GHH would be just as happy as anyone. But, even if you don't agree, I almost have to think you should see his point. Just like we should all see yours as well.

I don't mean to talk for him. I really don't. I may not even be accurate. But that's how I took the whole thing.

Okay KD - I am really going to step away from this and I get your point I really do - I do not agree with it but I understand it - from what you are saying even if we lost the next 10 then you think we have the structure to make the most of the high pick and get the team back on track in 2012 . I understand the thought that if we are not going to the playoffs then we would be better off falling short by a mile (3-13) rather than a inch (8-8) but to counter that a 3-13 team is a team to me that will have nothing left - a team that will have given up and it will be amazing to think there would be anything salvageable from that

I counter that with an example of an 8-8 team that came through a really rough period in the middle of the season and a real injury bug having to get used to a new QB and new key starters and came through that together with the young players like Paul, Hankerson, Young , Davis, Paulsen and Helu stepping up but falling just short of the playoffs but with real direction and a for a long time acting like a team rather than a bunch of individuals .

If you remember way back to 1998 we went 0-7 we went through QBs for fun having to start this guy (Trent Green or something) who was introduced to his other starters on offense each game - that was where Stephen Davis stepped out the shadows (although ironically as a lead blocker for Skip Hicks for the most part) . 1999 was the year the Saints Mike Holgrem went crazy and gave up his entire draft for Ricky Williams and then we gave most of it back to the Bears and Vikings to pick Champ Baily and trade for Brad Johnson (for a 1,2nd (2000) and 3rd round pick and they used the 1st we gave them to pick up Dante Caulpepper) ...1999 was also probably one of the best years to be a Skins fan in a long time .

So the point is I equally have faith in the FO that when April rolls around they will be able to make the necessary deals and maneuvers in the draft and free agency to be able to pick almost anyone in the draft they want . They turned a handful into a basketful of picks last season and I have been happy with most from Kerrigan to Neild and it is amazing to see what this competent FO can do without the drag of Vinny C pulling the cart back .

The only thing is I do not think your point is quite the same as Gibbs Hog Heaven because people have been trying to talk for him for a while and I appreciate this may have been covered somewhere in the last 38 pages - and I apologize in advance i it has been covered but while you make the point for loosing might not be that bad here on GHH, goes that step further and appears to be cheering for us to loose ...*at least that is what I take from his comments - and he clarified on page one - when SkinsGuy said this ;

Seems to me you are having more of a struggle of conscience than a struggle with "homer" fans. My guess is despite you position here, you will be cheering every Redskin TD,every sack they get, every INT they make. You won't be able to help yourself.

GHH responded immediately with

Good job you didn't watch the game with me Sunday then as I was COMPLETELY the opposite of that. If you knew me, you'd know I don't flippantly say things just for the sake of saying them. I believe what I believe in, and stand and fall by those convictions.

And as much as it 'conflicts' with the ethos of being a fan, I believe that the best thing as a fan and for my team is to step back before we can step forward, so to speak.

Hail.

Now i may have miss-understood what he said and as has also been said i kind of jumped 20 or so pages of the debate so this apparent minor point has been discussed and clarified and if it has and I am misinterpreting things then I am sorry .... and man have I wasted a lot of time miss interpreting things.... but I don't think I have . ....but there is a difference between thinking a 3-13 campaign is acceptable in terms of rebuilding and actually rooting for it .

Phew ... anyway .... is there a game this week ? .... GO REDSKINS -- (or Bills if you are Gibbs Hog Heaven)

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

To clear up my response to SkinsGuy that you quoted bedlam:

He suggested I'd be cheering every good/ positive thing the 'Skins do during a game, as I couldn't help myself as a fan.

Well, the example of Sunday's Carolina game I was trying to make ( 'complete' opposite was a bad turn of phrase as that suggests I was booing the good/ positive things); was that I was doing nothing of the sort. I was sat there watching the game totally impervious to good or bad. At the games end I was happy in terms of the long term (Beck showed nothing to me outside of a late padding of stats that he's gona' lead this team to anything more than Grossman); but I wasn't sat there actively cheering for a loss through the game as such.

Don't get me wrong, I hope we lose out ultimately to progress. But I'm not going into a game excited either way. Just, well, impervious to it all, for want of a better expression.

And I'm fine with you missing a chunk of discussion. Most people don't have time to wade through page after page of a thread when it jumps forward. Just you'd be better served in future threads to not jump in off the back of anyone else and presume something hasn't been addressed when it already had.

Hail.

[SWFLSkins]

PIC

There is no way in hades I don't fall off that wire, thus I will never walk said wire. hhahaaa

[KDawg]

bedlam,

Let me throw out there, that I was just saying I see both sides. I'm cheering for us to win the SuperBowl... I don't think that's realistic in the least, but that's what I cheer for every year. But, IF we finished 3-13, I would still have hope for this franchise because of the draft possibilities we'd have from it. That's my official stance. I don't necessarily share GHH's view, or your view from how I understand it.

[Dan T.]

I was sat there watching the game totally impervious to good or bad. At the games end I was happy in terms of the long term (Beck showed nothing to me outside of a late padding of stats that he's gona' lead this team to anything more than Grossman); but I wasn't sat there actively cheering for a loss through the game as such.

Don't get me wrong, I hope we lose out ultimately to progress. But I'm not going into a game excited either way. Just, well, impervious to it all, for want of a better expression.

Hail.

http://www.dcunited.com/

Hail.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

http://www.dcunited.com/

Hail.

Something specific I should be reading there Daniel?

Or are you suggesting I switch my sports viewing focus?

Hail.

[Drew_Fl]

To clear up my response to SkinsGuy that you quoted bedlam:

He suggested I'd be cheering every good/ positive thing the 'Skins do during a game, as I couldn't help myself as a fan.

Well, the example of Sunday's Carolina game I was trying to make ( 'complete' opposite was a bad turn of phrase as that suggests I was booing the good/ positive things); was that I was doing nothing of the sort. I was sat there watching the game totally impervious to good or bad. At the games end I was happy in terms of the long term (Beck showed nothing to me outside of a late padding of stats that he's gona' lead this team to anything more than Grossman); but I wasn't sat there actively cheering for a loss through the game as such.

Don't get me wrong, I hope we lose out ultimately to progress. But I'm not going into a game excited either way. Just, well, impervious to it all, for want of a better expression.

Hail.

Isn't part of being a fan just to put it on the line and take the wins and losses and experience them both equally? To me, you are in some sort of "fan coma" (alluding to the statements you don't cheer/boo anything during games), and you are waiting for the team to bring you out of it.

Part of the enjoyment of experiencing a championship is knowing all the **** you went through to feel that feeling. Let's put it into perspective, it's not like we are Bills fans who haven't ever won a SB. Also, it's been 19 years since our last SB (which still isn't as several groups of fans have waited). You already said you have experienced a championship, so i feel no sympathy for you. I was 6 during the '91/'92 season and didn't obviously didn't get to "experience" the championship.

I guess the difference is, I want the natural order of football to take place for us to get to the SB, regardless of how long that takes. I will not take solace in getting a slightly higher draft pick b/c we only won 5 games instead of 7 because looking at a lot of the SB champions in the last 15 years, I don't think any of them have drafted in the top 10 as much as we have.

Team - Times drafted in top 10 during previous 15 years before SB win

GB- 3

Saints - 5 (it can be argued the key piece to their SB came from FA)

Steelersx2 - 1

Giants - 3

Colts - 4 ( it can be argued that their SB wouldn't have happended without Manning for sure)

Patriotsx3 - 3 (one was a trade up, one was Seymour who was a key piece, and one was alligator arms Terry Glenn)

Bucs - 6 (none were on roster when they won the SB)

Ravens - 6 (best example of hitting on the majority of top 10 picks and turning them into a SB. also drafted well in general outside of top 10)

Rams - 8 (Terrible success rate overall)

Broncosx2 - 1 (It was Mike Croel. Who???)

Packers - 6 (Only Sterling Sharpe was on SB roster)

Cowboys - 2 (Aikman and Russell Maryland. Defintely helped themselves there.)

Redskins - 9

I think this data clearly shows that the overwhelming majority of SB's in the last 15 years, have not been won b/c of what the champions did in the Top Ten of the draft in the 15 years before their win.

We have drafted Top Ten more than any of them and have been mediocre at best for 15 years.

Knowing this, my question is why are you taking the experience out of being a fan, when what you should be hoping for is better front office success when it comes to drafting where we are at?

This post is how I will back up my logic of "win as many games as possible and let the chips fall where they may".

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Fan apathy toward a consistently mediocre team has been more than covered throughout this thread, by myself and others, so I won't clog up more space by rehashing that. I will add that I don't see it as taking away from the fan experience, when your expecting nothing anyway's.

The SB thing, which is not entirely the point your making here, but one I'm going to run with, totally misses the point. (How many of the last X number of SB winners were lead by a #1 prick/ 10 ten pick etc ad nauseam.). It's about consistently getting to the post-season year on year, and taking your chances from there. Most all the teams that consistently do that are lead by a top tier QB, more often than not who was taken high out of college over the years. The teams that have a little flurry without that, maybe even win the SB behind a stellar D or great running game; have 2 or 3 years or so and fall away when it catches up with them 9 times out of 10.

As far as the FO goes, I have a heck of a lot of faith in them. To equate to a percentage, I'd say something around 80/85% all told thus far. But, for the sake of argument, we end up with 6/ 7/ 8 wins, as is the common consensus, and that's achieved despite, instead of because of Beck; I don't see were they fix the most glaring hole on the team. And without doing that, we're never gona' get out of this vicious cycle. All the top 3 or 4 guys, and there's potentially some real top talent in that group, will go real high this next draft. After that, your dropping down a level to good guys who'll do a job, but probably can't do much more than that when the chips are down. Why would you want to overreach for a merely good guy, just because we need a QB after some 'feel good' wins that aid your fan experience; when you could quite possibly get one of the very top ones? (And I don't think Shanahan would overreach TBH. If his guy is gone by the time we pick, he'll move on to other needs as he's shown his first two drafts.). And I know there's no guarantee of a higher pick working out before that tired old one get's thrown in by someone again. There's zero guarantee on any pick working out at any position. But your increasing your chances of better talent with a higher pick. And again, the top 3 or 4 QB's coming out next April could well be real special.

You think it's taking away from the fan experience, and totally asinine when it come to being a fan. I get that, I truly do.

But conversely, it could well be argued that your in effect asking for the near constant mediocrity of the last 2 decades to continue by wanting those extra 4/5 wins or so. Not good enough to go forward down in a large part to a lack of that main man. Not bad enough to have the ammo to go out and get him. A vicious cycle that just leaves this franchise in a constant state of flux.

I do have a question though allied to those extra wins, out of interest.

With an offense that's just lost it's only playmaking receiver, it's top one; it's consistently career high producing TE; has a decimated offensive line that was far from strong to start with; has lost it's top running back from a run game that hasn't been very good at all (almost non-existent when it's come against the better D front's it's faced); and is now down to a totally inexperienced 'rookie' QB that has seen a game and a quarters live action in the past 4 seasons; and one which hasn't been able to score for **** right through the Shanahan's reign; just what gives you cause to think it will put up anything like the points needed to win most weeks in this league? I get eternal hope etc, but when we have a team that's a 16/17 point a game team, just what honestly gives anyone cause for optimism that they'll win one more game, never mind another 5 to get to .500?

I keep seeing this around .500 thang still being put out there, but it baffles the living heck out of me how anyone thinks we'll get there with this offense; regardless of what I want or don't want for the rest of the year.

Hail.