GHH laid totally bare with his fanhood on the line: Why it's best for our team to lose out the rest of the 2011 season.

[Boss_Hogg]

I understand that Sometimes you have to add by subtracting, but I hate losing, it kills me and ruins my Sundays.

[Dan T.]

Another quiz for those who believe that, at 3-3, the season is essentially over from a competitive standpoint:

If, somehow the Redskins scratch out some wins, get on a roll, and sneak into the playoffs, I will:

A. Skulk away ashamed for giving up on the team so early in the season.

B. Be cheering loudly from atop the bandwagon.

C. Other.

For this question, feel free to explain your answer.

[HailToTheRedskins14]

And this thread is completely looking at things in black and white.

What about the locker room culture? You don't think a coach can lose the locker room after an 0-16 season? Is the Lions' coach who went 0-16 still in Detroit???

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

C, as A and B are ridiculous slights on a point of view you continue to do the same at, however veiled.

If we got into the playoff's because Beck was lightening it up, running the offense and leading this team, I'd be ****-a-hoop. (Even apparently I'm not allowed shy of being classed as a 'jumping on the bandwagon.'). If it was despite Beck, I'd be real happy for them, excited because it was the playoff's, but I wouldn't be expecting it to go past the first round, although I'd hope it would. Ultimately, it would be be your B answer from the first question. Sat there when it was all done and done thinking how great this team could be if it had that leader, and how so far away from getting him we actually were.

---------- Post added October-26th-2011 at 02:24 PM ----------

And this thread is completely looking at things in black and white.

What about the locker room culture? You don't think a coach can lose the locker room after an 0-16 season? Is the Lions' coach who went 0-16 still in Detroit???

Wait, we're going 0-16 now? Are we 'giving' those 3 wins back for an improved draft position?

Interesting new concept. Might just work and get us Luck. Give that man a cookie.

Hail.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Another quiz for those who believe that, at 3-3, the season is essentially over from a competitive standpoint:

If, somehow the Redskins scratch out some wins, get on a roll, and sneak into the playoffs, I will:

A. Skulk away ashamed for giving up on the team so early in the season.

B. Be cheering loudly from atop the bandwagon.

C. Other.

For this question, feel free to explain your answer.

C. other: cheer because this team surprised me and itll prove that we are more talented than i thought we were.

nothing wrong with that.

[Dan T.]

Wait, we're going 0-16 now? Are we 'giving' those 3 wins back for an improved draft position?

Interesting new concept. Might just work and get us Luck. Give that man a cookie.

Hail.

His point is still valid if they go 3-13, as you are hoping for.

BTW, my second quiz question was a bit smug in tone, and for that I apologize. But it gets to an interesting question for me. What would demeanor of "the season is over now" people be if this team finds itself and makes a run into the playoffs?

And remember that just because the team shows some success doesn't mean it won't still work like hell in the offseason to improve.

---------- Post added October-26th-2011 at 03:32 PM ----------

C. other: cheer because this team surprised me and itll prove that we are more talented than i thought we were.

nothing wrong with that.

Fair enough. I agree. And again, they'll still work to improve in the offseason, win or lose.

[KCClybun]

And this thread is completely looking at things in black and white.

What about the locker room culture? You don't think a coach can lose the locker room after an 0-16 season? Is the Lions' coach who went 0-16 still in Detroit???

Let's ask Jeff Saturday and Anthony Fasano about their respective teams.

Many fans in Indianapolis and Miami continue to root for their team to fail, and perhaps not surprisingly, players for the Colts and Dolphins aren't thrilled about it.

Such is the nature of the "Suck for Luck" campaign, where the opportunity to draft Stanford quarterback Andrew Luck outweighs the downside of a disastrous season.

“I have done this for 13 years ... I’ll steal a Robert Mathis quote: I ain’t sucking for anybody," Colts center Jeff Saturday said Wednesday, according to the Tennessean. “Robert said it best, and that is the reality of it. I am out there every week trying to win games, and I don’t care about the rest of it.”

Dolphins tight end Anthony Fasano is similarly touchy about the situation.

“It’s sick actually. I can’t even fathom those thoughts of those people that conjure up that stuff," he told WFAN-AM in New York (via SportsRadioInterviews.com). "They have never played sports and pretty much aren’t really our loyal fans. I can’t really put any weight into that and I know the players don’t listen to it."

It's easy to understand the frustrations of Saturday and Fasano, but NFL players are also hard-wired to treat every game as vital and relevant. Knowledgeable fans don't have that same perspective, leading to the disconnect of what the balance of the schedule really represents. Can't we all just get along?

Not only that, but I think it's the kind of thing that could really breed resentment towards a young guy like Andrew Luck, to know that fans of the team are openly rooting for losses to get a guy who has never taken a snap in the NFL.

I don't see anyone taking anything Shanahan has to say about what this team can be seriously if we were to lose the next 10 games. It's funny that people see wanting the team to win as being short-sighted, when really, it's short-sighted to not think of the long term implications of Shanahan losing the whole damn lockerroom from that scenario far outweight the positives of maybe, potentially, getting a quarterback that may or may not be worth it.

Very much doubt that if we went 3-13, you could walk up to DeAngelo Hall or Barry Cofield or Trent Williams or Brian Orakpo, pat them on the back and say "Hey, cheer up guy, at least we can probably get Robert Griffin now!". Players don't give a crap about that. For as much as coaches get crap about wanting to be win now, every player has the same mentality.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Fair enough. I agree. And again, they'll still work to improve in the offseason, win or lose.

but remember, in order for us to get in, we're talking 10-6. so that would assume were going 7-3 over the next 10 weeks. thatd be insanely impressive considering our schedule and our injuries. so the chances of that are insanely slim. but hey, anything can happen. MCWORLD!

[Dan T.]

but remember, in order for us to get in, we're talking 10-6. so that would assume were going 7-3 over the next 10 weeks. thatd be insanely impressive considering our schedule and our injuries. so the chances of that are insanely slim. but hey, anything can happen. MCWORLD!

Seven wins?

1. A win over rusty Buffalo coming off the bye starts the roll. ("Rusty Buffalo" sounds like something out of the Urban Dictionary.)

2. San Fran.

3. Miami.

4. Dallas revenge game.

5. Seattle.

6. A Jets team in disarray.

7. Minnesota.

Paloffs!

[Drew_Fl]

And this thread is completely looking at things in black and white.

What about the locker room culture? You don't think a coach can lose the locker room after an 0-16 season? Is the Lions' coach who went 0-16 still in Detroit???

When I brought this up earlier, I was countered with an example comparing the NFL to the stock market. That should show you that people really have no clue that this is an entire organization of people, and a losing season of any great magnitude sends shockwaves throughout the organization.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

And this thread is completely looking at things in black and white.

What about the locker room culture? You don't think a coach can lose the locker room after an 0-16 season? Is the Lions' coach who went 0-16 still in Detroit???

Apparently your point is still valid at 3-13, so let's look at that with Detroit. Marinelli and Millen go after that 0-16 season. Schwarz and Meyhew come in and continue to rebuild. Detroit goes 2-14, 6-10, and now sit at 5-2.

So no, I guess the Lions HC didn't lose the dressing room at 2-14. A 2-14 we can't even achieve as we already have one more win. Here, like in Detroit, the players can, or at least should, be able to see the changes being made to the roster and the influx of good, hungry young talent. Not to mention the complete change in attitude right through the organization. And our major plus on Detroit is we have a two time SB winning, sure fire HoF headed HC who the players have all bought into. If we did go 3-13, and added the most vital piece of all and continued rebuilding next off-season in the same vein, any player, bar a vet. at the very end of his career looking to "win now" would be ridiculous to not feel positive about this ball club going forward and the direction we we're headed.

So no, IMHO, your point has no validity (sorry Dan); and there's no way Shanahan would 'lose the locker room' if we bottomed out at 3-13 through the mere fact that we just aren't good enough to do much better at this present time.

Hail.

[Dan T.]

Apparently your point is still valid at 3-13, so let's look at that with Detroit. Marinelli and Millen go after that 0-16 season. Schwarz and Meyhew come in and continue to rebuild. Detroit goes 2-14, 6-10, and now sit at 5-2.

So no, I guess the Lions HC didn't lose the dressing room at 2-14. A 2-14 we can't even achieve as we already have one more win. Here, like in Detroit, the players can, or at least should, be able to see the changes being made to the roster and the influx of good, hungry young talent. Not to mention the complete change in attitude right through the organization. And our major plus on Detroit is we have a two time SB winning, sure fire HoF headed HC who the players have all bought into. If we did go 3-13, and added the most vital piece of all and continued rebuilding next off-season in the same vein, any player, bar a vet. at the very end of his career looking to "win now" would be ridiculous to not feel positive about this ball club going forward and the direction we we're headed.

So no, IMHO, your point has no validity (sorry Dan); and there's no way Shanahan would 'lose the locker room' if we bottomed out at 3-13 through the mere fact that we just aren't good enough to do much better at this present time.

Hail.

That is one amazingly rosy scenario.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

That is one amazingly rosy scenario.

Must be your 'feel good fandom' rubbing off on me.

Hail.

[GibbsFactor]

Another quiz for those who believe that, at 3-3, the season is essentially over from a competitive standpoint:

If, somehow the Redskins scratch out some wins, get on a roll, and sneak into the playoffs, I will:

A. Skulk away ashamed for giving up on the team so early in the season.

B. Be cheering loudly from atop the bandwagon.

C. Other.

For this question, feel free to explain your answer.

I've lived through 99,05 and 07.

I want more than the random playoff appearance.

---------- Post added October-26th-2011 at 03:57 PM ----------

When I brought this up earlier, I was countered with an example comparing the NFL to the stock market. That should show you that people really have no clue that this is an entire organization of people, and a losing season of any great magnitude sends shockwaves throughout the organization.

You are putting too much stock into that.

The team will have a losing season this year. What does that do to the locker room? Coach, team, owners, fans all gave it their all and you end up 7-9.

I'd rather know we were 5-11 because of injuries and we are rebuilding than knowing we gave it all we had and ended 7-9. That would kill my confidence.

[Jumbo]

The difference between the 6th pick and the 14th pick equates to 500 points which equals to a high second round pick. So people would rather win 1 or 2 extra games to feel good on monday than the possibilty of a talent difference of another second round pick?

http://www.sportznutz.com/nfl/draft/draft_point_value_chart.htm

No. Not to "feel good Monday." There is a sad but predictable lack of grasp of key aspects of both sides of this topic by some posters. In your case, you're apparently missing the concept many fans hold dearly: that every game is one you play to win and, as a fan, want your team to win, all other consequences or theoretical "what ifs" regarding draft picks aside.

Many, many fans (particularly but ceratinly not exclusively more old-school IMO) have that fundamental mindset---which I would suggest underlies all serious competitors' attitude in any venue of life's activities that include competition.

On the other side, while "hoping" or "being fine with" losing in order to have a higher draft pick will seem questionable (to use one term) to such fans, it is not the same as wanting the team to "throw" (tank) the game(s). Though I have also seen some posters actually claim that desire, too.

I am one who cannot see ever "hoping" for losses based on "what if" draft scenarios or any other factor. Play to win every game, hope to win every game---no exceptions. But that's me.

As I said, there are several posters in this thread (and it is an excellent thread/OP) including GHH who I respect even if I can't align with their base position.

Now, regardless of all this, should we try to win, and while I hope to win, each and any game we play, independent of all other "considerations", I would seek solace in imagining that "at least" we'll have a chance to get a better draft pick if we do go down the drain badly.

This is not contradictory and seems pretty simple to me. I will go a bit farther and say that while I will not insult someone's "fanhood" over this idea of "hoping to lose" for "a good reason", I sure can't see it by my (just my) construct of being a serious fan.

[GibbsFactor]

Seven wins?

1. A win over rusty Buffalo coming off the bye starts the roll. ("Rusty Buffalo" sounds like something out of the Urban Dictionary.)

2. San Fran.

3. Miami.

4. Dallas revenge game.

5. Seattle.

6. A Jets team in disarray.

7. Minnesota.

Paloffs!

I believe in the rusty team effect this year and will agree Buffalo is rusty.

Let's break it down.

@Buffalo - let's say we win due to the bye week

49ers - slim shot, defensive battle, they come east.

@Miami - yes, there is a team worse off than us

Dallas - revenge? HAHA

@Seattle - have to cross country for that, Seattle isn't much worse than us

Jets - As bad as they look, we are worse off

Minny - Sure, should win that game

Realistically 2 wins in there. 2. Could squeak out 4.

7-9 tops.

[Enter Apotheosis]

So no, IMHO, your point has no validity (sorry Dan); and there's no way Shanahan would 'lose the locker room' if we bottomed out at 3-13 through the mere fact that we just aren't good enough to do much better at this present time.

Hail.

You're missing the part where 2-14 was actually progress for Detroit. It's when teams take a significant step away from the .500 mark (by, for example, going from 6-10 to 3-13) that you start to see real problems creep up in most organizations.

[GibbsFactor]

You're missing the part where 2-14 was actually progress for Detroit. It's when teams take a significant step away from the .500 mark (by, for example, going from 6-10 to 3-13) that you start to see real problems creep up in most organizations.

Take a look at the Redskins during the Gibbs era.

6-10

10-6

5-11

9-7

then

8-8

4-12

6-10

3-3 = ???

That's what this team is. It's time to take drastic measures.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

You're missing the part where 2-14 was actually progress for Detroit. It's when teams take a significant step away from the .500 mark (by, for example, going from 6-10 to 3-13) that you start to see real problems creep up in most organizations.

I honestly don't think that would be an issue given all the change that's been made, and the fact the players have fully bought into that change and what Shanahan's trying to do here.

Players aren't stupid. They know who's lacking in talent, and just how short we are in certain areas. But if they can see progress being made, even in defeats, with the overall state and focus of the organization, as they surely can with this; allied to fully believing in the HC and buying into his plan; I honestly don't see any locker room dissent.

I don't expect them to be happy, and would certainly hope they aren't accepting of defeat. But I wouldn't expect any dissent toward the HC.

Hail.

[GibbsFactor]

I honestly don't think that would be an issue given all the change that's been made, and the fact the players have fully bought into that change and what Shanahan's trying to do here.

Hail.

Not to mention the blue collar type players that have been brought in. No longer do we have the divas. Still don't have a lot of talent. That's what we need to fix.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Take a look at the Redskins during the Gibbs era.

6-10

10-6

5-11

9-7

then

8-8

4-12

6-10

3-3 = ???

That's what this team is. It's time to take drastic measures.

honestly, aside from the one realistic year (2005), we've been a mediocre to sub par team since 2004. 6-10, 6-10, 5-11, 4-12: 4 of 7 seasons with double digit losses. one 8-8 season that ended horribly with a 2-6 skid after an unrealistic 6-2, and 2007 which was headed for another 6-10 or 7-9 like ending had campbell not gotten injured. shocker that we switch to a competent QB and all the sudden we win 4 straight in december to get a playoff spot.

this team has been pretty awful for awhile, the difference now is that theres light at the end of the tunnel. being sub par with youngsters is much better than being sub par with antwaan randle el and albert haynesworth.

[GibbsFactor]

Except Bradford is starting to get beat the eff up behind a joke of an O Line. The kid could end up like Ramsey real soon if the Rams don't protect him.

Beck & Rex are merely keeping the drivers seat warm for when we're actually ready to drop a rookie in & let him drive. With limited depth on the OL & being severely limited at WR, we're better served with Bex this season. And most likely one of them next year as well.

Add to this LL56's tweets about not to expect full contention until 2014...

[Conn]

Walter Camp speculates that Griffin may opt to stay at Baylor next year:

"The early hints are that Griffin is inclined to pull an Andrew Luck/Jake Locker/Matt Leinart and return to school for another season."

Also, they project Tannehill as 2nd rounder.

http://walterfootball.com/draft2012QB.php

So either way, no need to hope for Redskins losses.

No way to know about Griffin right now, but the only way he stays in school is if he wants to start on his law degree, because he'll be done with his masters in the spring. I see him coming out.

Tannehill will be a huge riser. He'll go in the top-12 of the 1st.

In general, I don't like walterfootball either way. I appreciate you putting in the effort to have this discussion, though.

---------- Post added October-26th-2011 at 04:15 PM ----------

Another quiz for those who believe that, at 3-3, the season is essentially over from a competitive standpoint:

If, somehow the Redskins scratch out some wins, get on a roll, and sneak into the playoffs, I will:

A. Skulk away ashamed for giving up on the team so early in the season.

B. Be cheering loudly from atop the bandwagon.

C. Other.

For this question, feel free to explain your answer.

C. Other--Cheer for them and hope for a miracle run, but deep down know that this is a flawed team without a QB, and therefore, this will not be a consistent trend in the future. I'll be terrified if this happens, because that will be just the situation where Allen/Shanahan think "man, we're almost there". UNLESS we miraculously win the SB, or John Beck proves throughout that he's the real deal, this might be the worst outcome of all.

But as GHH said, if Beck proves to be the real deal through all this, then any outcome is okay. Because then I'll have my answer, for a while, at QB.

I just don't see that happening.

[Enter Apotheosis]

I honestly don't think that would be an issue given all the change that's been made, and the fact the players have fully bought into that change and what Shanahan's trying to do here.

Players aren't stupid. They know who's lacking in talent, and just how short we are in certain areas. But if they can see progress being made, even in defeats, with the overall state and focus of the organization, as they surely can with this; allied to fully believing in the HC and buying into his plan; I honestly don't see any locker room dissent.

I don't expect them to be happy, and would certainly hope they aren't accepting of defeat. But I wouldn't expect any dissent toward the HC.

Hail.

I would certainly hope you're right... but you're undeniably playing with fire when you're banking on a team continuing to put their full faith and confidence in both themselves and in their coaching staff through multiple losing seasons with clear signs of regression.

That's what this team is. It's time to take drastic measures.

I'm not opposed to taking drastic measures to improve the team. I just don't consider losing to be a viable drastic measure so long as there are no clairvoyant persons under the employ of Dan Snyder.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

No. Not to "feel good Monday." There is a sad but predictable lack of grasp of key aspects of both sides of this topic by some posters. In your case, you're apparently missing the concept many fans hold dearly: that every game is one you play to win and, as a fan, want your team to win, all other consequences or theoretical "what ifs" regarding draft picks aside.

Many, many fans (particularly but ceratinly not exclusively more old-school IMO) have that fundamental mindset---which I would suggest underlies all serious competitors' attitude in any venue of life's activities that include competition.

On the other side, while "hoping" or "being fine with" losing in order to have a higher draft pick will seem questionable (to use one term) to such fans, it is not the same as wanting the team to "throw" (tank) the game(s). Though I have also seen some posters actually claim that desire, too.

I am one who cannot see ever "hoping" for losses based on "what if" draft scenarios or any other factor. Play to win every game, hope to win every game---no exceptions. But that's me.

As I said, there are several posters in this thread (and it is an excellent thread/OP) including GHH who I respect even if I can't align with their base position.

Thanks Jumbo. Appreciated.

And thank you for succinctly summing up and clarifying a lot that continues to be lost on both sides through the various debates here.

Hopefully that will help with confusion even more.

*Edit* Leaving the above last line because my dumbass mistake amuses me and kinda' fits given some of the misunderstanding through this thread. I meant to say "Hopefully that will help clear up the confusion even more" of course. *Hangs head chuckling.

Hail.