GHH laid totally bare with his fanhood on the line: Why it's best for our team to lose out the rest of the 2011 season.

[KCClybun]

Apparently your point is still valid at 3-13, so let's look at that with Detroit. Marinelli and Millen go after that 0-16 season. Schwarz and Meyhew come in and continue to rebuild. Detroit goes 2-14, 6-10, and now sit at 5-2.

So no, I guess the Lions HC didn't lose the dressing room at 2-14. A 2-14 we can't even achieve as we already have one more win. Here, like in Detroit, the players can, or at least should, be able to see the changes being made to the roster and the influx of good, hungry young talent. Not to mention the complete change in attitude right through the organization. And our major plus on Detroit is we have a two time SB winning, sure fire HoF headed HC who the players have all bought into. If we did go 3-13, and added the most vital piece of all and continued rebuilding next off-season in the same vein, any player, bar a vet. at the very end of his career looking to "win now" would be ridiculous to not feel positive about this ball club going forward and the direction we we're headed.

So no, IMHO, your point has no validity (sorry Dan); and there's no way Shanahan would 'lose the locker room' if we bottomed out at 3-13 through the mere fact that we just aren't good enough to do much better at this present time.

Hail.

Scwartz was in his first year, compared to his second.

And, in all fairness, the Lions were used to losing. It's not like they got off to a hot start and then went 2-14. They barely beat us in Week 3 that season (in a loss that pretty much kickstarted the rebuilding process for us, ironically enough), and then beat a Browns team that went 5-11. They may have understood there were in the first steps of a rebuilding process, but I hardly think anyone felt good about going 2-14, losing 6 straight games to end the season by a total of 193 points to 83. Maybe they felt something different, but I hardly think it was rosey. As opposed to the 2010 Lions, who went 6-10, but closed out their season with four straight victories and a lot of positive momentum.

What you're suggesting here is that the Redskins should lose TEN STRAIGHT GAMES, coming off a 3-1 start. You show a fundamental lack of how miserable it would feel to lose 12 straight games altogether. There would be no rose colored glasses losing 12 straight games. You really think that, given everything that happened last season, that if something that horrific happened THIS season, players would just go "yeah, okay, well, we're rebuilding, whatever"?

That shows an outstanding lack of foresight. That's not optimism; it's straight up unfounded and stupid wishful thinking.

[Conn]

That is one amazingly rosy scenario.

And going at least 7-3 (most likely) after all of these injuries, with a likely journeyman-level QB, to make the playoffs isn't?

I'm not saying that your scenario is impossible, but its at least as rosy as the idea that Shanahan wouldn't get fired after a season with less than 6 wins.

[SWFLSkins]

What if any player gets injured. What then?

You pay a price for EVERY player you draft, whether that price be big or small.

And one thing you can't legislate for in this physical game of ours is injuries. But if that stops you taking a gamble on a better talent because of the cost, the fear he could go down on the any given play; then your not going to progress very far with your franchise.

Hail.

IMO the price you pay for tanking to take just one player and then have him fail is immeasurable. That's why you don't do a ditka either.

[GibbsFactor]

And going at least 7-3 (most likely) after all of these injuries, with a likely journeyman-level QB, to make the playoffs isn't?

I'm not saying that your scenario is impossible, but its at least as rosy as the idea that Shanahan wouldn't get fired after a season with less than 6 wins.

People who think Shanny gets fired for winning less than 5 games aren't paying attention.

Snyder's past actions essentially prohibit him from not giving Shanny the 5 years to turn this squad around.

[KCClybun]

Players aren't stupid. They know who's lacking in talent, and just how short we are in certain areas. But if they can see progress being made, even in defeats, with the overall state and focus of the organization, as they surely can with this; allied to fully believing in the HC and buying into his plan; I honestly don't see any locker room dissent.

I don't expect them to be happy, and would certainly hope they aren't accepting of defeat. But I wouldn't expect any dissent toward the HC.

Players also aren't in the business of going "MAN does everyone on my football team SUCK". You have to believe in everyone on your football team, otherwise, why the frak would you go out in play?

And how can one argue that dropping from 6-10, to 3-13 by way of losing twelve straight games, is PROGRESS. That's boneheaded and silly.

prog·ress   [n. prog-res, -ruhs or, especially Brit., proh-gres; v. pruh-gres] Show IPA

noun

1.

a movement toward a goal or to a further or higher stage: the progress of a student toward a degree.

2.

developmental activity in science, technology, etc., especially with reference to the commercial opportunities created thereby or to the promotion of the material well-being of the public through the goods, techniques, or facilities created.

3.

advancement in general.

4.

growth or development; continuous improvement: He shows progress in his muscular coordination.

5.

the development of an individual or society in a direction considered more beneficial than and superior to the previous level.

By definition, nothing about dropping from 6-10 to 3-13 is progress. You can say "well at least the young guys would get some time", but even rookies and 2nd year players are going to be horribly discouraged by losing 12 straight games. Faith dictates effort; if you've got no faith that you're actually progressing towards something, that you're not moving towards a goal, you're not going to give your best effort.

If you're running a business, and you make ten million dollars in one year, and then make three million dollars the next year, including losing money every month for 12 months, are you going to say it's progress because at least your employees got more experience working in a highly stressful work environment? Probably not; you're going to wonder why the hell you lost so much money, and your employees and investors are going to question how the hell you mismanaged things so badly.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

You obviously have a completely different character and attitude to myself NLC.

If you'd want out after a 3-13, then fair enough, that's your prerogative.

Personally, unless I was a vet in his later years wanting to be on a team that was primed to win now, I'd be more than happy to stick with what's being done here. Oh, I wouldn't be happy at all at losing. But I'd understand and appreciate what was being done and the hard work of everyone working for the same goal and going in the right direction. Even if it hadn't come to fruition as fast as you'd apparently like.

But that's me.

Hail.

[BleedBNG]

Hopefully that will help with confusion even more.

[KCClybun]

You obviously have a completely different character and attitude to myself NLC.

If you'd want out after a 3-13, then fair enough, that's your prerogative.

Personally, unless I was a vet in his later years wanting to be on a team that was primed to win now, I'd be more than happy to stick with what's being done here. Oh, I wouldn't be happy at all at losing. But I'd understand and appreciate what was being done and the hard work of everyone working for the same goal and going in the right direction. Even if it hadn't come to fruition as fast as you'd apparently like.

But that's me.

Hail.

No offense, sir, but I think if you were actually IN the situation, your opinion would be drastically different.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

LMAO. It's been a LONG day. And, I, uhmmmmm ...... I blame Vinny! It's ALWAYS Vinny's fault! So there.

*Sneaks out to correct that.

---------- Post added October-26th-2011 at 03:48 PM ----------

No offense, sir, but I think if you were actually IN the situation, your opinion would be drastically different.

Having played sports, specifically soccer to a very high amateur level in England that included, all be it an ultimately failed, invitation trial at a pro club; I think I both know my own mind and know the progress within a club that can come even with poor results if the plans there and being followed by a coach who's putting as much in as the players.

But no offence taken.

Hail.

[BleedBNG]

LMAO. It's been a LONG day. And, I, uhmmmmm ...... I blame Vinny! It's ALWAYS Vinny's fault! So there.

*Sneaks out to correct that.

Hail.

I'm j/k with ya GHH

And BTW... even if we don't agree... I can understand your point

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

I'm j/k with ya GHH

And BTW... even if we don't agree... I can understand your point

I know man, and thank you.

But it amused the living piss out of me in context of the way some of the threads gone so I left it in with a correction.

Hail.

[Drew_Fl]

You are putting too much stock into that.

Pun intended?

[Dan T.]

Having played sports, specifically soccer to a very high amateur level in England that included,

Hail.

Oh. . . . Soccer. . . . That explains a LOT.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

I keed. I keed.

[GSF]

Seriously, is this so hard for you to comprehend and rationalize as a fan? Or are you just being as obtuse as you possibly can be? Because honestly I'm at a loss here with what your posting Drew.

If your seriously asking why I'd care about the progress of the young guys, the future of this team, out on the field then I honestly can't see the point in answering you.

The laughable 'guilt' line I'll give the respect it deserves. None.

I answered you. Shanahan's on a five year plan. Why would you think i ..... NM, this got us in that go-around to start with.

I'm finding it interesting reading a good few of the replies here how people can't seem to separate either a losing season from failure; or make a distinction between wanting your team to fall short at the gun, and ultimately in the final record for what you perceive as the bigger picture; but them giving everything they have within that game on game but just falling short through a lack of experience, talent and now hard hitting injuries; and out and out 'tanking', which VERY few, either in this thread or any similar since the summer on here have suggested we do. It seems to many, there's no inbetween. You lose out through whatever means, your 'tanking' by association. It makes interesting reading.

I've been reading this board for more than a decade now, and your ability to blend arrogance and straight up stupidity in your threads is absolutely off the charts. I could probaly write a book on how wrong you are here, but I'll just make a few bullets for simplicity's sake;

- Noone thinks you are saying the team should tank on purpose. You keep claiming we can't separate tanking from losing, but we get exactly what you are saying. First you said you hope the team loses out, then you changed your title to it would best for the team to lose out. We get it numb-nuts.

- No team ever suddenly gets better by losing 11 games in a row to finish the season, even if you do wind up drafting your future QB. If your young players are playing hard and getting better as you suggest, you don't lose 11 in a row. If your young team is well coached and developing as you seem to believe, you're eventually gonna win a few games. If you drop 11 in a row you suck period.

- Shanahan's 5 year plan as you call it is gonna end early if he drops 11 in a row. if a head coach drops 11 in a row to end his second season, he gets fired, as he should be.

- If you're bad enough to lose 11 in a row, a new QB is probably not going to turn that around in 1 season. Cam Newton is having the best rookie season in the history of the nfl, so far Carolina is still losing. So, by your plan, it would actually be best for the team to lose all their games for multiple seasons, right?

- You and others keep referring to the lions. The lions haven't done jack **** yet. They opened with 5 wins sure, but they just lost 2 in a row, and got exposed by Atl and San Fran that they can't run the ball or stop the run. Unless they get that fixed, they're gonna get their asses kicked by teams like Green bay and the Saints in the play offs, especially if they have to travel to someplace like Lambeau Field. Maybe the lions should lose out so they can pick up a stud RB or LT. don't forget the lions sucked for a decade and actually went winless a couple years ago. For every Megatron they picked, they also picked a Charles Rogers.

- Jamarcus Russell was the highest graded QB to come out in history I think. There are no guarantees, even with a guy as good as luck.

- If you believe that shanny is building a winner, and changing the culture as they like to say, the worst possible thing that could happen would be to finish the season with 11 losses. All of that confidence, chemistry, and culture is gone, and so is Shanny.

- The 2 most succussful teams by far over the last decade have been the patriots and steelers. Here are their draft positions over the last decade starting with the most recent: Steelers: 31, 18,32, 23, 15, 25, 30, 11, 16, 30. Patriots: 17, 27, 34, 10, 24, 21, 32, 21, 13, 21. These teams didn't get good by losing 11 games in a row. They're extremely well managed and coached, which is what we're hoping for from Shanahan and Allen.

- Now, here's the most important 1; Hoping your team loses is just horrible karma. It's just wrong and it pisses off the football gods. It's lame and gay, and it's everything that sports is not all about. I can just see you now, watching the game on your couch in your burgandy and gold panties, wringing your hands and whining and crying that you hope the team loses so they can draft a QB. You remind me of that guy in the "leave Brittany alone" video on youtube. I hope you do go visit Addicted in Texas, because you deserved to be slapped around a little.

I feel a Hi There coming on. See you guys in a week, if they let me back in.

---------- Post added October-27th-2011 at 05:39 AM ----------

Yeah i also think you're lying about playing soccer at a high level. I play in 2 amateur leagues now. I sit here typing with my socks and guards in a pile by my feet as I played in a match earlier tonight. 1 of the leagues I'm in uses a draft system to add new players. My team is quite mediocre in that league. No way in freakin hell I want to lose the rest of our games to get a higher pick next year. No one who plays sports thinks like that. We show up, have fun, try to win.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Classy GSF,

I'm not only full of 'straight up stupidity that is absolutely off the charts'; I'm an arrogant, lying numb-nuts that deserves to get 'slapped around' a bit' by another REAL classy member; all down to the fact you disagree with another view point which you perceive as 'lame and gay.'

Really classy.

I'm not going to get into a tawdry slanging match with you over your points, suffice to say I neither have zero cause to lie about anything, nor do I. And on that, being as I have neither changed the thread title (I honestly wouldn't know how to do that, being as 'technologically challenged' that I am), and have never once referred to the Lions in this thread outside of answering others points who brought them up; maybe you shouldn't be so quick to throw your slurs around on another. Follow that with going into a rant about nobody saying I said I was talking about 'tanking' the year and everyone getting my premise (all of which have been answered, explained and corrected by numerous members and a mod. Go figure why that would happen if there was no confusion, for want of a better word); it's apparent you've just skimmed through a good few pages looking for my name to cut and slice posts with for your personal attack here, and are quite the ill informed stranger to the truth yourself.

Oh, you forgot to lambast me for another 'lecture thread'; as is your usual tiresome rhetoric for jumping all over me; which you have quite the history of.

Hail.

[bedlamVR]

GHH don't take this the wrong way but this thread is "Lame and gay" to quote the guy .

I mean NOTHING good comes out of loosing . Something you have never really addressed . Look at some of the worst teams in the NFL over the last 10 years - generally they are still some of the worst teams in the NFL (I am thinking the Browns, Bengles, Lions, Rams, Miami, etc etc ...) and they have had high pick after high pick after high pick in the draft, and the hope for the future is all you get from a loosing team .

I, as I think almost everyone else on this board, has played in teams at one level or another . No one wants to play on a loosing team is it not plesent, it is not the **** you have to put up with from other fans and other teams , because the worst thing that happens when you loose is you become irrelivent . What happens to people playing on loosing teams is people start not to care, on professional teams they are getting paid anyway so win or loose makes little difference - and as the loosing gets worse and more prolonged the number of players that stop carring increases as people why bust your butt, an excetpional individual effort is never going to get noticed in a wave of nothing else . And then comes the doubt - what if this is the best you can be as a team with these team mates, with these coaches and these trainers etc etc .... what if this is the best you can be as a player - if it is why bother ...and when you get used to loosing it becomes a habit, a lot harder to break than the winning habbit .

I still 36 pages later have no idea why a supposed Redskins fan would want this . You know what kind of football fan hopes the Redskins loose from here on out - Cowboys fans .....

[KDawg]

Not sure why people are personally attacking GHH here... Or even worse, inferring he's a Cowboy fan. He's clearly a fan of the team that's been beat down to the point of submission, but that doesn't give people the right to start throwing personal insults here.

Keep in mind that GHH is generally a respected poster. Sure, he has some whacky opinions (like this one... And that Landry Jones is actually a top flight QB ) but everyone is entitled to those opinions. Attack the idea, not the poster.

[SWFLSkins]

Not sure why people are personally attacking GHH here... Or even worse, inferring he's a Cowboy fan. He's clearly a fan of the team that's been beat down to the point of submission, but that doesn't give people the right to start throwing personal insults here.

Keep in mind that GHH is generally a respected poster. Sure, he has some whacky opinions (like this one... And that Landry Jones is actually a top flight QB ) but everyone is entitled to those opinions. Attack the idea, not the poster.

Should this go without saying? You want conversation that is enlightening than someone and in this case GHH needs to say something controversial. The guy or any guy is entitled to his opinion.

[KDawg]

Should this go without saying?

Yes.

But, did it go without saying?

[SWFLSkins]

Yes.

But, did it go without saying?

Sadly no. I don't agree with GHH at all in this thread, but it is his view, so be it.

[Dan T.]

GSF to GHH:

[GibbsFactor]

And GSF is completely wrong.

Go figure. Those that can't debate the subject at hand resort to personal attacks. And who's the dumb dumb again?

Classic.

[Dan T.]

And GSF is completely wrong.

Go figure. Those that can't debate the subject at hand resort to personal attacks. And who's the dumb dumb again?

Classic.

Other than the name calling, GSF is exactly right. GHH and his supporters are so laser focused on getting that high draft slot that they ignore all the other ramifications that losing 12 straight games in a season would have on a franchise. They've just separated out the rest of that reality. It's nonsense.

Edit: And going back through GSF's post, the only direct name calling was the relatively mild "numb-nuts." The rest was of the derision was carefully crafted to disparage the idea, not the poster.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Yup, I see your point Dan given the positive effect winning 4,5,6,7,8 or so games a year has had on this franchise the past two decades.

Hail.

[Henry]

And GSF is completely wrong.

Go figure. Those that can't debate the subject at hand resort to personal attacks. And who's the dumb dumb again?

Classic.

He may have been wrong to lose his cool like that but he does raise some good points. These in particular:

- No team ever suddenly gets better by losing 11 games in a row to finish the season, even if you do wind up drafting your future QB. If your young players are playing hard and getting better as you suggest, you don't lose 11 in a row. If your young team is well coached and developing as you seem to believe, you're eventually gonna win a few games. If you drop 11 in a row you suck period.

- Shanahan's 5 year plan as you call it is gonna end early if he drops 11 in a row. if a head coach drops 11 in a row to end his second season, he gets fired, as he should be.

- Jamarcus Russell was the highest graded QB to come out in history I think. There are no guarantees, even with a guy as good as luck.

- If you believe that shanny is building a winner, and changing the culture as they like to say, the worst possible thing that could happen would be to finish the season with 11 losses. All of that confidence, chemistry, and culture is gone, and so is Shanny.

Well, except that it would be 12 in a row, not 11. Hoping for such utter failure simply for the chance to draft a guy who may or may not work out ... doesn't make as much sense as you'd like to think.