The Official Washington Basketball Thread: Wizards, Mystics etc

[Going Commando]

Well Gortat has shown that he can finish at the rim and run the PnR. He did it with Nash wonderfully. Hopefully we see some of that because if everything with Wall is a pass to a spot up shot the offense slows down and defenses have too easy a time forcing lower percentage options. I would feel so much better about this team if we had a better coaching staff. Two shooters, two big bodies that can score, and a potentially all star point guard? That should make for a good versatile offense. Instead I'm betting we see guys standing around and depending entirely on Wall to create.

 

Yeah Gortat is a pretty hellacious PnR finisher.  He goes strong and he's got really quick feet and is capable of launching from that middle hash mark and dunking it.

 

I would love to be able to run a lot of PnR through him because it would give Wall a big target to rack up easy assists.  He sets hard screens too, he's got a strong body.

 

If we start Webster over Ariza, we should be able to put 5 quality offensive players on the floor at once.  Ah that would be nice.  Multiple creators.  Multiple shooters.  Multiple penetrators.  Multiple interior scorers.  And all of them pretty good defenders too.

 

And Gortat can definitely rebound.

 

Some other things I noticed in Gortat's skillset:

 

- Creative back to basket game.  He's a fluid scorer.  Okafor definitely was not.  Gortat has soft touch and a good baby hook.  Also has very quick feet and the explosiveness to drive the basket.

 

- Ambidextrous, symmetrical looking offensive game.  Equally proficient from both blocks.  Also likes to face up and shoot a baseline jumper from both sides.  Range from about 12 to 15 feet on this jumper.

 

Shoots elbow jumpers fairly well from both sides but probably favors the left elbow for pick and fade because he's played with right handed PGs.  He's a better jump shooter than Okafor.

 

- Also has range from the middle of the lane just behind the FT line and makes a lot of shots from there.  He's got a couple of places he's comfortable fading to.

 

- Is a decent FT shooter.  Better than Oak was.

 

He's actually a nice offensive center in addition to being a pretty good defender and quality rebounder.  He's a pretty complete player.

 

I think he's also capable of playing PF.  He's athletic and has a jumper.  He and Nene are interchangeable at PF and C.  With them, you've got the flexibility to go out and get another big man who isn't versatile enough to play both positions.

 

So if we wanted to still say, deal Ariza for an Omer Asik, we could.

 

Or a deal I like even better is building a package around Ariza for Paul Millsap next month when Millsap is eligible to trade and Porter gets back from injury.

[Hersh]

Pop on over to RealGM and read a 30 page thread of much the same thing.  That place gets ten times more shrill than this thread ever does.

 

Fans will stop whining about it after Gortat ends up playing well and the team makes the playoffs.  I am looking forward to the playoffs so much this year.  I am actually confident the Wizards will be there.

 

We hated the Okafor/Ariza trade.  Then we didn't when they actually turned out to be pretty good.

 

The Okafor/Ariza trade is still a terrible trade. First, we give another team massive cap space a year early and get no draft pick out of it. Second, if the Wiz don't make that trade at all and just let Lewis' contract expire, they don't need to trade the 2014 draft pick cause they have a lot of cap space to either sign somebody outright or absorb a contract plus pick up another pick if someone is trying to create their own cap space.

 

It's not even about whether Gortat has a good season or not, it's about the Wiz mismanaging assets in an attempt to simply make the playoffs as the 7th or 8th seed.

This isn't a defense of Ernie so please nobody take it like that.

What GMs actually are good at the draft? There can't be many. Think/wonder if that's just the nature of the NBA draft. Total crapshoot outside the obvious can't misses that even a 13 year old could hit on (Lebron, Durant, Beal(?), etc).

 

I don't think anyone expects to find a superstar there, but find a couple of good rotation players  or maybe one starter out of the 6 picks or whatever number it is. There is basically nothing to show out of any of those picks.

[RonArtest15]

I really don't see a major downside to this trade. This team is at the point where investing development time in a mid round first pick is simply not possible.

 

There are three top-3 draft picks on the roster. You just can't continue to stock pile first round picks and hope that the rest of our players pan out as well. Wall and Beal need to be on a winning roster even if the current ceiling for this team is 40-45 wins. 

 

Setting expectations is a good thing. Ideally, this team should be great if Wall and Beal are playing up to their potential. Adding Gortat rounds out the roster. Nene no longer has to play C since Gortat and Seraphin can take the 48 minutes at that spot. Booker becomes a valuable 3rd big man off the bench and Vesely can give energy/fouls as the 5th big man on the roster (sad).

 

I'm fairly excited to hopefully see a competitive team this year. I think Gortat is a really good player.

 

U bump your head?  Haven't seen you post anything positive about this team in about 5 years LOLOLOLOLOL.

[Going Commando]

U bump your head?  Haven't seen you post anything positive about this team in about 5 years LOLOLOLOLOL.

 

I agree with everything he said.  At some point you have built enough of a young core and now you have to turn it into a winner.  You can't do anything with more young talent.  The window isn't right anymore.  If you tried to keep stockpiling it, you'd either be unable to get it on the court.  Or you'd waste the guys you got before playing losing basketball in perpetuity.

 

Like No Excuses said, three top three picks in four years is good enough.  We're in the phase of team building where you view them as the foundation and make moves to keep them and fill in the roster around them with players who can work with them ASAP.

 

I really like Gortat too.  He's got the skill level to be the best center we've had in a long time.  Nene is good if he can stay reasonably healthy.  And we've got a pair of stud guards.  I haven't been this excited for the start of a basketball season in forever.

[No Excuses]

U bump your head?  Haven't seen you post anything positive about this team in about 5 years LOLOLOLOLOL.

 

FWIW, I think nothing great will come out of this trade. I think the ceiling of this team will be a quick 2nd round exit ever year. I do not believe Ernie has the GM skills to be crafty enough to assemble a well balanced roster through the draft and FA. I don't think Ted has the ambition to want to be anything more than a mediocre early playoff exit team.

[Going Commando]

Got this fantasy team from my auction:

 

PG: Derrick Rose

SG: Beal

G: Wall

SF: Gordon Hayward

PF: Dirk

F: Jimmy Butler

C: Duncan

C: Gortat

UTIL: Joe Johnson

UTIL: Taj Gibson

 

BNCH: Asik

BNCH: Biyombo

BNCH: Cody Zeller

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

I got a strict rule, in any fantasy sport, to do everything within reason (I'm not going to pass on Alfred Morris in the 12th rd for example) to never take hometown players. For several reasons, mainly I feel your view of them is tainted/biased, and if they have a ****ty and disappointing season, it just makes it that much worse. Learned this lesson the hard way, years ago with Jason Campbell.

[StillUnknown]

I got a strict rule, in any fantasy sport, to do everything within reason (I'm not going to pass on Alfred Morris in the 12th rd for example) to never take hometown players. For several reasons, mainly I feel your view of them is tainted/biased, and if they have a ****ty and disappointing season, it just makes it that much worse. Learned this lesson the hard way, years ago with Jason Campbell.

 

I learned a similar lesson a couple of a seasons ago doing a weekly NFL pick'em pool for money. Since then, I have picked against us more than I care to admit.

[Destino]

On fantasy sports:

Fantasy sports force a war between my heart and mind.  Intellectually I know which players I think will benefit me to draft.  My heart is an irrational thing and doesn't care for such nonsense.  It knows what it hates and it hates a lot of teams.  This year I've been too damn busy to play fantasy sports and the two sides have been enjoying the relative peace.  

 

 

As for the Wizards:

I think this year is all about John Wall.  He's got weapon and he's got a contract and now the expectations on him are massive.  Anything less than the best year of his career and he'll be viewed as a crushing disappointment.  He's going to have to score efficiently, pile up assists while limiting turnovers, and win games.  There is no more "oh well he doesn't have any blah blah blah".  The team may not have a superstar to help him but he's got a lot of talent that plays on both sides of the court.

 

What they don't have is Okafor to corner Wall in the locker room and set him straight.  Wall is going to have to lead and he's going to have his hands full.  I don't think Gortat and Nene are the great team guys that people make them out to be.  They both can lose their cool when they feel they aren't getting touches and give inconsistent effort.  Beal is solid.  Webster is a little bit insane.  Rice Jr needs someone to keep him out of the clubs.  Otto, Temple, Seraphin, and Vesely strike me as low maintenance players more likely to get caught playing dungeons and dragons than getting into a bar fight.  Harrington probably doesn't give a damn what Wall, or anyone, thinks about anything.  

Edited October 28, 2013 by Destino

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Still don't love the trade, but I'm not nearly as vexed about it as when I heard the news drop last night. 

 

The team will have EXCELLENT cap flexibility in 2014, so they may be gearing up to offer Greg Monroe a max deal. 

 

The Wizards have to make the playoffs. Playoff teams with cap space get B+ level free agents. Lottery teams with cap space get C+ players.

 

(The people pushing Kevin Durant ideas need to just stop lest they end up in an Institution).

 

I think this trade probably locks them in as a playoff team - though we are talking about the Wizards so who the hell knows......

Edited October 28, 2013 by Lombardi's_kid_brother

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

This thread is funny. Thoughts on the trade were immediate hate, just because. Then the slow warm up to it

 

It's a strange trade. The Wizards gave up their two best trade assets before the season started for a player who doesn't exactly set the world on fire.

 

At the same time, the Wizards were going into what is essentially a make or break season for a lot of people with a completely unsettled front court.

 

I think as people realized what the lineup now looks like and - more importantly - realized what the cap looks like going forward, they calmed down.

 

Anyway, this will be an easy trade to judge. If they make the playoffs, it was a good trade. If they don't, it was pointless.

[JoeWolf990]

i really dont understand the beef with Gortat. He is a really good player.

To be fair, that draft really was as ****ty as everyone was predicting it to be.

you sure?

Nikola Vučević, Kahwai Leonard, Klay Thompson, Tobias Harris, Iman Shumpert, Kenneth Faried, Jimmy Butler, Reggie Jackson are all better and have contributed more to their teams than what Singleton and Vesely have.

Shoot, Vučević would have been GREAT for us.

[RonArtest15]

It's a strange trade. The Wizards gave up their two best trade assets before the season started for a player who doesn't exactly set the world on fire.

 

At the same time, the Wizards were going into what is essentially a make or break season for a lot of people with a completely unsettled front court.

 

I think as people realized what the lineup now looks like and - more importantly - realized what the cap looks like going forward, they calmed down.

 

Anyway, this will be an easy trade to judge. If they make the playoffs, it was a good trade. If they don't, it was pointless.

 

That's my stance.  Pretty much playoffs of bust. 

[Skin'emAlive]

Does this team have the ability to draft another guy who needs a few years to groom? I would think not. We are already doing that with Otto and Seraphin. But we could seriously benefit from making our team as attractive as possible a destination for future free agents. Especially when Sing, Ves, Ariza, and Booker all come off the books. I think this trade was a no brainer. But you could pretty much replace Gortat with any big man that might have been available, and the feeling would be the same. We needed a dude to play Center and we didnt have one. Spelling an end to the season without one, and the end of our bid to attract good free agents.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Skin'emAlive

[method man]

I really do not get the hate at all for this trade. If anything, what annoyed me is letting all those other guys go. I think at least Marshall and Brown are on guaranteed contracts and I'd take either guy over Temple. 

 

Heck, if Marshall can learn to nail the 3, the man becomes at least a serviceable backup

[Destino]

The hate for the trade is mostly centered around the idea that the wizards gave up a lot and got very little back. They risk coming away with nothing after this season from a large expiring deal and a 1st round pick. Its a playoff or bust gamble which makes little sense other than to save the jobs of a Grunfeld and Wittman along with MAYBE attracting a free agent.

There is an argument as to if Gortat is a good fit because his specialty is the PnR and Wall has never shown that he's capable of running that effectively. He didn't with McGee, Nene, or Okafor. This team passes into the post, runs the pick and pop, or drives and kicks out to the three point line. In order for Gortat to get back to his 2011-12 form he needs a PnR partner.

I like the trade for purely selfish reasons, I want to watch these guys win. If I looked at it objectively I'd say it was short sighted and a forced fit that was made only because the team was desperate. I won't look at it that way though because life is short and the guys nickname is the "Polish Hammer", which is great.

[Skin'emAlive]

Thats a pretty spot on analysis there about Wall's tendency to pick and pop rather than pick and roll. And while that may be concerning,  Gortat does have some range, and a pretty soft touch. So i think this isnt that big of a problem. Also, Nash primarily ran the pick and roll (Gortat's best season). So there's that. If Gortat truly needs to have some crafty passes in the post, Nene would be the best distribution option there. Primarily though, this team will be kicking out to Beal/Ariza/Webster/Porter/Harrington for 3's. Nene and Gortat will either be taking easy shots, cleaning up boards, or kicking out for tre's.

[Sticksboi05]

 

Also, I disagree with Bill saying Wall needs a 3 pointer.  It'd be nice, but the only 3s Wall is really going to take are late clock desperation shots and wide open corner 3s when he moves off the ball.  In the first, meh, you don't expect him to make those.  The real problem is in the offensive breakdowns that happened to bring us to that point.  In the second situation, Wall can make those well enough.  The three pointer doesn't have to be a weapon for Wall so long as we put two or three three ball shooters on the court with him.  T

 

A star PG in this league needs to be able to shoot well on principle.  Wall had better have shot thousands per day over the summer.

[Skin'emAlive]

Wall doesnt need to be able to hit the 3. But he damn well be money on the block where he seemed to be decent last year.

[RonArtest15]

I just Wall to have an effective mid-range game.  I don't care about a 3 point shot.  That can come eventually. 

[Going Commando]

A star PG in this league needs to be able to shoot well on principle.  Wall had better have shot thousands per day over the summer.

 

A star SG I would agree.  But you can still be a star PG without having a three ball.  Look at Rondo and early CP3 and Tony Parker.  To this day, neither Parker nor CP3 are really great 3 point shooters.  It's more of a final option for them.

 

Go back before and Magic and Zeke were not 3 ball shooters and are two of the best to ever do it.  Both were truly great scorers too.  Jason Kidd did shoot a lot of threes early on, but he didn't shoot them well until he was old.

 

I think what you do need to be is an efficient scorer when you call your own number, which means being able to shoot well from at least a few spots.  For Wall already is an efficient player around the rim.  He'll be a good scorer if he irons out his mid range pull up to compliment that slashing game, whether or not he's taking 3s.  That's really the path that a guy like Tony Parker took.

 

To me, it's all about how your team can build a well balanced line up.  I think you want two three ball shooters on the court.  So when you've got a PG like Wall that doesn't really have reliable three ball range, then you need to make sure you have a shooter at SG and one of the forward spots.  It's taken the Wizards a while, but they've finally acquired the kinds of players to achieve this kind of balance.

 

Conversely, lets say you have a PG who is a great shooter/scorer like Westbrook or Kyrie, or even a great defender like Conley, but not a very good facilitator.  Then you have to compensate by finding facilitators at the other guard and forward spots (or maybe even a C like Noah or Gasol).

 

It's all about your capability of putting the right mix around the guy.  Wall is comparatively easy to build balanced line ups around even though he's not a great shooter because he can do so many other things at a tremendous level.

[Going Commando]

I just Wall to have an effective mid-range game.  I don't care about a 3 point shot.  That can come eventually. 

 

Yeah that typically comes later when a PG might lose a step and has to pull up form three or play off the ball more.

 

If Wall can find a corner and shoot reasonably well from there so that he has a place in the what, five plays he's off the ball per game, then that should work.

 

Otherwise, Wall's best options will always be to drive and find teammates or take that mid range pull up when the defense hangs off.  The three should really only be the best option on broken plays or late clocks.

 

With Nene and Gortat likely to get most of our PF and C minutes, and neither having a three pointer, then that means the most important thing is to have three point shooters at SG and SF with Wall.  I like the idea of having three 3 ball shooters on the court with Wall so that we can get those hockey assists and get another drive and kick option.  But that doesn't put our best five on the court.

 

Still, I'd manage Nene's minutes carefully enough to run small ball lineups with Harrington and Porter and Ariza playing some PF for another three point shooter.  Nene and Gortat can both play C in small ball lineups.

[RonArtest15]

Yeah that typically comes later when a PG might lose a step and has to pull up form three or play off the ball more.

 

If Wall can find a corner and shoot reasonably well from there so that he has a place in the what, five plays he's off the ball per game, then that should work.

 

Otherwise, Wall's best options will always be to drive and find teammates or take that mid range pull up when the defense hangs off.  The three should really only be the best option on broken plays or late clocks.

 

With Nene and Gortat likely to get most of our PF and C minutes, and neither having a three pointer, then that means the most important thing is to have three point shooters at SG and SF with Wall.  I like the idea of having three 3 ball shooters on the court with Wall so that we can get those hockey assists and get another drive and kick option.  But that doesn't put our best five on the court.

 

Still, I'd manage Nene's minutes carefully enough to run small ball lineups with Harrington and Porter and Ariza playing some PF for another three point shooter.  Nene and Gortat can both play C in small ball lineups.

 

Agreed.  If he develops a good mid-range game, the next logical step would be for him to extend his range to the 3pt line.  Makes no sense for him to work on a 3pt shot when his mid-range game needs work.  Do one before the other.  Remember, this was the knock on Derrick Rose and now he's about as complete of a threat in all facets of the half-court by way of his shooting. 

 

I have no doubt that Wall will get there.  The last 25-26 games of the season he was playing with more confidence than I've ever see him have. 

 

*I saw an interesting point brought up on BF.  If Nene goes down with an injury, a front court of Gortat/Harrington SHOULD be enough to keep this team's playoff hopes alive.  Harrington was a really underrated signing by EG.  He's a true stretch 4 who should be great off the bench and also when given spot minutes as a starter, if need be. 

[Going Commando]

It's a strange trade. The Wizards gave up their two best trade assets before the season started for a player who doesn't exactly set the world on fire.

 

At the same time, the Wizards were going into what is essentially a make or break season for a lot of people with a completely unsettled front court.

 

I think as people realized what the lineup now looks like and - more importantly - realized what the cap looks like going forward, they calmed down.

 

Anyway, this will be an easy trade to judge. If they make the playoffs, it was a good trade. If they don't, it was pointless.

 

Even still, it was a good risk for the Wizards to take.  A favorable risk-reward assessment is what makes a deal worth making since you don't get to use hindsight in your decision making process.  A middling pick is all that they can lose.  Everyone is expiring.  The potential payout is a quality starting C for the next few years.  They'll know whether they want to try and extend Gortat after this season.  Even if Gortat fails I won't kill Ernie for making the deal because I would have made the same decision if I were in his place.

 

I don't think the draft pick itself was a a particularly attractive trade asset because the league doesn't think the Wizards will be ****ty this year.  If we had started off the year something like 2-10 or 5-18 yet again, then it would have been valuable.  But then we're not talking about trading that pick any more.  We're talking about wholesale change.

 

I think Oak's expiring was a good asset.  But with this FA class being so dreary looking, it needed to be traded to get the most from it, rather than used for the savings this summer.  I'm on board with this specific use.  Asik and Gortat were the only bigs really out there on the market at this point, and I like Gortat better.

 

I'm also relieved that we didn't deal Oak for Rudy Gay or Carlos Boozer or something like that.

Edited October 29, 2013 by stevemcqueen1

[Going Commando]

I really do not get the hate at all for this trade. If anything, what annoyed me is letting all those other guys go. I think at least Marshall and Brown are on guaranteed contracts and I'd take either guy over Temple. 

 

Heck, if Marshall can learn to nail the 3, the man becomes at least a serviceable backup

 

Supposedly Marshall was pretty bad.  If he'd shown any promise at all, he'd probably still be in Phoenix.  Slow PGs that can't shoot don't really have a place in the NBA.

 

I also heard Brown was a bum last season.  Down to 11 minutes a game on an awful team when you're a vet like him is a bad sign.  Phoenix fans were angry the team picked up his contract for this season when it became guaranteed because they wanted him gone.

 

We were a couple days away from the start of the season and our roster is set.  Best to stick with our plan for the back court then throw a wrench in it now for guys with such low upside.