The Official Washington Basketball Thread: Wizards, Mystics etc

[Renegade7]

The Bruce/Snyder relationship is starting to rival the Ernie/Ted in worst GM / Owner combo in DC.  If both would jus leave and give us expansion franchise, I'd be cool with that at this point.  I love Snyder, but I'm worried he wont get rid of Bruce.  I want yo like Ted, but his secret extensions for Ernie make that unpossible.

[PeterMP]

1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

When did this thread become realGM?  Getting hot takey up in here with all of these non Wizards fans unloading their crap opinions in the Wiz thread.

 

Aren't you the person that went around for years saying that there was going to be window for the Wiz post-GS to compete for the NBA championship?

 

(While I back in 2015 was saying the Wiz weren't good enough to win a championship and should start rebuilding)

[Renegade7]

12 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

Aren't you the person that went around for years saying that there was going to be window for the Wiz post-GS to compete for the NBA championship?

 

(While I back in 2015 was saying the Wiz weren't good enough to win a championship and should start rebuilding)

 

He's a Wizards fan in a Wizards thread, that's reasonable, a lot of us could see that with all the second round series we were taking to the limit.  I, too, am sick of people coming in and telling us what we should do with our team.  Save it for the NBA thread.

[Going Commando]

13 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

Aren't you the person that went around for years saying that there was going to be window for the Wiz post-GS to compete for the NBA championship?

 

(While I back in 2015 was saying the Wiz weren't good enough to win a championship and should start rebuilding) 

 

And you're the one now saying that we should trade the second best player in our franchise's history--in his ****ing prime--for a ****ing expiring contract and consider it a win.  Others are saying we should trade him because he's got a bone spur issue he's dealt with his whole career.  Or because he had a bad game.  Oh and let's not forget that it's a win if we trade one of the best three and D players in the league for  a couple of second round picks.  These takes are astonishingly bad.  And let's not get into the Ben Simmons and Luke Doncic takes you've offered recently.

 

You view the league through a straw and have a ten second memory.  So does almost everyone else around here.  LKB constantly makes fun of me for being a prisoner of the moment, but none of you guys are ever going to give me **** about that again.

[Warhead36]

1 hour ago, Renegade7 said:

The Bruce/Snyder relationship is starting to rival the Ernie/Ted in worst GM / Owner combo in DC.  If both would jus leave and give us expansion franchise, I'd be cool with that at this point.  I love Snyder, but I'm worried he wont get rid of Bruce.  I want yo like Ted, but his secret extensions for Ernie make that unpossible.

How the hell does anyone that isn't directly related to that tool love Snyder?

[Renegade7]

3 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

How the hell does anyone that isn't directly related to that tool love Snyder?

Because I know he wants to spend money on getting the best players but cant figure out who to get them for him.  Its tough to watch, really, if this was baseball, hed be running ****

[PeterMP]

1 minute ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

And you're the one now saying that we should trade the second best player in our franchise's history--in his ****ing prime--for a ****ing expiring contract and consider it a win.  Others are saying we should trade him because he's got a bone spur issue he's dealt with his whole career.  Or because he had a bad game.  Oh and let's not forget that it's a win if we trade one of the best three and D players in the league for  a couple of second round picks.  These takes are astonishingly bad.  And let's not get into the Ben Simmons and Luke Doncic takes you've offered recently.

 

You view the league through a straw and have a ten second memory.  So does almost everyone else around here.  LKB constantly makes fun of me for being a prisoner of the moment, but none of you guys are ever going to give me **** about that again.

 

I take the view of the league through actually trying to win a championship. If you don't like it, that's on you.

 

We'll see (like the Wizards being true championship contenders from 2015).

[Hersh]

16 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

And you're the one now saying that we should trade the second best player in our franchise's history--in his ****ing prime--for a ****ing expiring contract and consider it a win.  Others are saying we should trade him because he's got a bone spur issue he's dealt with his whole career.  Or because he had a bad game.  Oh and let's not forget that it's a win if we trade one of the best three and D players in the league for  a couple of second round picks.  These takes are astonishingly bad.  And let's not get into the Ben Simmons and Luke Doncic takes you've offered recently.

 

You view the league through a straw and have a ten second memory.  So does almost everyone else around here.  LKB constantly makes fun of me for being a prisoner of the moment, but none of you guys are ever going to give me **** about that again.

 

The flip side of this is that you want to keep a guy that is about to begin a terrible super max contract, is lazy on defense and could never get this team past the second round to say nothing of what his teammates appear to think of him. You constantly make excuses for him but if you want to win a championship, it won’t be with Wall being the number one guy.

 

But hey, I’m like a few others in here that doesn’t really know anything about the Wiz...except that they suck with John Wall. 

[Renegade7]

8 hours ago, PeterMP said:

 

I take the view of the league through actually trying to win a championship. If you don't like it, that's on you.

 

We'll see (like the Wizards being true championship contenders from 2015).

You really should just stay out of here if that's how you really feel.  The whole "I know what's best for you" is not a good look, especially to someone who watches so many of the Wizards games that that's why we respect his opinion on them.  Is he always right, no, but neither are you.  You can't win a championship with Ernie, so that's why I get tired of everyone's "ideas" that don't seem to take that into account.  The easy way out is to blame people like Wall, which I agree with Steve on, is getting ridiculous.

[Renegade7]

9 hours ago, Hersh said:

But hey, I’m like a few others in here that doesn’t really know anything about the Wiz...except that they suck with John Wall. 

 

We suck without him, so all the more reason to stop telling us what we should do like we don't know already.  This conversation starts and ends with who's the GM, the players will not matter if that doesn't change. We've already seen that, this is Ernie's second rebuild already, the only people that don't want to give him a third one are people that actually follow this team regularly.

 

It's like we know something ya'll don't.

 

Edited December 10, 2018 by Renegade7

[Llevron]

You know it's bad when multiple ruling factions show up and begin waring with each other

[Bozo the kKklown]

Elvin Hayes, Earl Monroe, Wes Unseld> John Wall

 

Shoot, Gus Johnson>John Wall

[PeterMP]

1 hour ago, Renegade7 said:

You really should just stay out of here if that's how you really feel.  The whole "I know what's best for you" is not a good look, especially to someone who watches so many of the Wizards games that that's why we respect his opinion on them.  Is he always right, no, but neither are you.  You can't win a championship with Ernie, so that's why I get tired of everyone's "ideas" that don't seem to take that into account.  The easy way out is to blame people like Wall, which I agree with Steve on, is getting ridiculous.

 

Look, I'm not saying anything about the GM because there is nothing to say.  Nobody is arguing that Ernie is a good GM.  (I think he's better than some Wizards fans think in that he did carry out 2 rebuilds that resulted in playoff caliber teams.  You could certainly do worse.  But I am certainly not going to argue that I'd trust Ernie to execute a championship contending rebuild.  That I don't think much of Ernie as a GM is inherent in the idea that they should have torn it down in 2015 and started over because Ernie didn't do it.)

 

But to say that because Ernie's not the GM to run a rebuild, the worth of the individual players or their weaknesses can't be discussed is ridiculous.

Edited December 10, 2018 by PeterMP

[Renegade7]

1 minute ago, PeterMP said:

But to say that because Ernie's not the GM to run a rebuild, the worth of the individual players can't be discussed is ridiculous.

It directly affects the worth of the players because the culture he's created is destroying their worth.  It's not that it can't be discussed, I'd don't believe this is being looked at in that context, it never seems to be how this conversation goes.  It's that Ernie has broken him and thus we should move on, no, the new GM should make that call, I'll be damned if I see Wall look more valuable elsewhere in a more competent franchise, no, make this franchise more competent and keep him here.

 

That's good that you've added clarity to your understanding of the situation with Ernie. But I'm sorry, no, he does not get credit here for playoff runs with two franchises considering the culture he's overseen has effectively emancipated the potential of both of them, let alone what he does with draft picks.  8 teams per conference makes the playoffs, east has been so weak, teams get in by accident all the time.  The fact we haven't made it passed the second round makes it even worse in context.

[PeterMP]

I don't believe ownership/management has much say in terms of culture other than the players that they bring in, and in the NBA, that's really hard to deal with because if you have a really good on the court player that doesn't help build culture, trading that person is hard because you are never going to bring back the ability with respect to their on the court ability.  I believe for the most part the players set the culture.  Look at what happened in San Antonio with Leonard.  Here was a team that has been known for their culture, and it completely got ripped apart and now they are struggling.  Pop's a great coach, but he didn't set the culture there.  Duncan, Parker, Ginoibili, (going back further Robinson), etc set the culture there.

 

I just need to add, there are 3 ways the Wizards get more value than I suggested for their players:

 

1.  A team has some significant injury and needs a player after most other trades have been made.  Mostly, I see this possibility being Toronto.  They have a reason to show they are serious about competing this year and in the near years going forward to keep Leonard.

 

2.  Something happens to Curry and Durant and that opens up an arms race among that set of teams that are currently just under them.

 

3.  They wait to the off season and some team that's got huge cap space gets passed over by the major free agents (i.e. most possibly the Lakers) .  If the Lakers can't attract a major free agent this off season (Leonard stays in Toronto, Butler in Philly, etc.), then the Lakers might get desperate and use their cap space and do something like trade for Wall (though even then, you are limited to the assets that the Lakers have, which isn't that great).

 

Teams are heavily valuing cap space and flexibility (maybe even too much).  Milwaukee essentially just traded a 1st round pick to open up $25 million in cap space a year early.

[Bozo the kKklown]

17 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

I don't believe ownership/management has much say in terms of culture other than the players that they bring in,

 

Strongly disagree

 

Robert Sarver is a great example of bad culture starting from the top in Phoenix.

[PeterMP]

29 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

Strongly disagree

 

Robert Sarver is a great example of bad culture starting from the top in Phoenix.

 

Sarver is a micro-manager that doesn't let his basketball people run the team and at least if you believe the leaks/rumors has ordered lineups and the like to coaches.

 

That's not what we are talking about here in terms of culture (and nobody is making the same claims about Ted or even Ernie).

 

Wall isn't struggling this year because Ted is dictating the lineups.  Wall is struggling this year because he can't/won't (can't potentially because of age/injury) give the effort he's given in the past.

 

People aren't trading (much) for a max player that they need a coach/owner to set that kind of culture for.  Your max players need to be the guys that set that kind of culture for you.

 

Clearly, there can be bad owners in that they are cheap or can't understand what it takes to put a winnning organization together, but that is different than on court effort or ability of the players or things like the areanas situation.

Edited December 10, 2018 by PeterMP

[Hersh]

4 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

 

We suck without him, so all the more reason to stop telling us what we should do like we don't know already.  This conversation starts and ends with who's the GM, the players will not matter if that doesn't change. We've already seen that, this is Ernie's second rebuild already, the only people that don't want to give him a third one are people that actually follow this team regularly.

 

It's like we know something ya'll don't.

 

 

A) Everyone knows Ernie is terrible. Ernie being terrible doesn’t mean they shouldn’t trade Wall if the opportunity presents itself. 

 

2) What would you and Steve like to talk about in a Wizards thread? 

[Hersh]

1 hour ago, PeterMP said:

I don't believe ownership/management has much say in terms of culture other than the players that they bring in, and in the NBA, that's really hard to deal with because if you have a really good on the court player that doesn't help build culture, trading that person is hard because you are never going to bring back the ability with respect to their on the court ability.  I believe for the most part the players set the culture.  

 

You are kinda trying to have it both ways here since selecting/bringing in the players is bigly important. If a GM brings in a guy that is poisonous to a locker room, that’s the GM and ownership creating the toxic environment. Now, maybe an already strong locker room can handle it but that’s not what the Wizards have.

[Renegade7]

19 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

A) Everyone knows Ernie is terrible. Ernie being terrible doesn’t mean they shouldn’t trade Wall if the opportunity presents itself. 

 

I disagree, and it's not because I'm 100% against trading Wall like I used to be.  Trafi g him wint help or fix this current situation, it's a waste of time if Ernie is doing it because we will get hosed and hell screw up his replacement same way he screwed up Wall.  I want the new GM to make that call, sit down with Wall and decide what's best for the franchise 

 

19 minutes ago, Hersh said:

2) What would you and Steve like to talk about in a Wizards thread? 

 

This isnt about controlling the conversation, this is about getting sick of people outside looking in telling us what we should do.  Plenty to talk about, even that, but if it's not kept in context it jus goes in a circle.  We have e laugh drama in here jus commenting in the games as they happen, if someone wants to come, please come in with more then fuel for the fire, we got enough of that already

 

[Mooka]

1 hour ago, PeterMP said:

 

That's not what we are talking about here in terms of culture (and nobody is making the same claims about Ted or even Ernie).

 

 

Our last team was the Gilbert Arenas lockeroom.

 

There's something abnormal with the culture and management of this team.

[Renegade7]

2 hours ago, PeterMP said:

I don't believe ownership/management has much say in terms of culture other than the players that they bring in

 

I'm shocked seeing this comment on a Redskins message board. Shocked. 

[PeterMP]

3 hours ago, Hersh said:

 

You are kinda trying to have it both ways here since selecting/bringing in the players is bigly important. If a GM brings in a guy that is poisonous to a locker room, that’s the GM and ownership creating the toxic environment. Now, maybe an already strong locker room can handle it but that’s not what the Wizards have.

 

Right, but in many cases you don't know the person you are bringing into the locker room very well, and especially in the NBA the people you are bringing in a lot of times are young/immature and the hope in many cases is that they will mature as they get older (which absolutely happens).

 

And then when you have them, if they turn into a really good player, it is hard to trade them because there it becomes essentially impossible to  bring back in comparable value in terms of on the court production if they don't mature or what you hoped/expected.

 

3 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

 

I'm shocked seeing this comment on a Redskins message board. Shocked. 

 

1.  The NFL is different than the NBA because management has much more power than players than in the NBA.

 

2.  We have incompetent management in the context of Snyder doesn't understand how to build a winning franchise.

 

But in terms of effort, locker room culture, and on the field performances, we have players that come here and succeed.  Look at AP.  Heck, he failed on a team that most would say has good "culture" and succeeded here.  Being here has helped AP's future value not hurt it.  Being here didn't drive down Cousin's value.  Cousin's showed enough as a player here (playing under a management structure that is incompetent) to be given a large contract.  The same is not true for the Wizards players.  John Wall is not showing he's a player that looks like it makes sense to take on his contract (+ trade kicker) in making a trade for him that another team is then going to also give you anything really for him.  Otto Porter does not play like a guy that makes sense to give up much to get AND pay 2 more years at max level (+ trade bonus from cap space).  You want more than the equivalent of a couple of 2nd rounders for Porter, you are going to have to take back somebody's garbage salary and not just expiring contracts.

 

3 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

This isnt about controlling the conversation, this is about getting sick of people outside looking in telling us what we should do.  Plenty to talk about, even that, but if it's not kept in context it jus goes in a circle.  We have e laugh drama in here jus commenting in the games as they happen, if someone wants to come, please come in with more then fuel for the fire, we got enough of that already

 

Steve didn't get mad at my post because I told anybody what to do in it (because I didn't).  Steve got mad at my post because he didn't like the values on the Wizards players.  And he didn't like them because he's a homer that over rates the value of the Wizards players, and he doesn't understand player evaluation in the current NBA.

 

Steve got mad not because I caused the conversation to go in a circle, but because people he thinks are good and should have a lot of value to other NBA teams I said don't actually have much value to other NBA teams.

Edited December 10, 2018 by PeterMP

[Sticksboi05]

Wall should absolutely be traded as a full on rebuild begins but Ernie clown ass Grunfeld should not be the one allowed to pull the trigger.

[Destino]

7 hours ago, PeterMP said:

I don't believe ownership/management has much say in terms of culture other than the players that they bring in, and in the NBA, that's really hard to deal with because if you have a really good on the court player that doesn't help build culture, trading that person is hard because you are never going to bring back the ability with respect to their on the court ability.  I believe for the most part the players set the culture.  Look at what happened in San Antonio with Leonard.  Here was a team that has been known for their culture, and it completely got ripped apart and now they are struggling.  Pop's a great coach, but he didn't set the culture there.  Duncan, Parker, Ginoibili, (going back further Robinson), etc set the culture there.

 

You're confusing culture and winning.  Players play a role in culture but they don't establish it or define large portions of it.  If they did it would vanish each time they switched teams.  Maimi's culture is still strong, their roster isn't.  The Wizards culture was toxic even when they were playing well.  The Spurs culture is probably still very good, they're just struggling to put the pieces together.  Barring injury, they'll be fairly good by the end of the season.