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6 hours ago, Morrison J said:

Goes completely against the integrity of competition. Imagine if the NFL expanded the salary cap for only the 6 most profitable teams? How would that be fair on the rest?

 

Premier League currently has Leicester and West Ham in the champions league spots. How is it fair on them to give worse run teams hundreds of extra millions to get back ahead of them? It absolutely stinks. 

 

It's embarrassing that the likes of Liverpool, Spurs, Arsenal etc would rather create a new competition that they're included in than concentrate on winning more games to get ahead of the likes of Leicester and West Ham who are taking chunks of their revenue by beating them. 

Not only that but if you look at the Milan teams most of their starting 11 wouldn’t start for Leicester. Serie A is godawful in general and if you really look at the squads of the top teams it’s a whole lot of players discarded by the rest of the clubs that joined this sham. 

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Obviously, I am not as kneejerk against this.  First of all, these top teams dominate their domestic leagues and Champions League anyway.  Second, I watch to see the best teams, the best players.  World Cup did draw me in, but Champions League is what has kept me watching European soccer.  

 

I see issues with Superleague -- first, they need to open up slots for promotion and share some profits to incentivize teams to promote in (even if they don't relegate the original 12 or 15).  Second, the owners should have just made new club names and forked their teams rather than keep their club information.  Seems like they should be able to keep parallel teams in their domestic league.

 

I mean Champions League is a money grab.  So they are upset because the clubs want their own money grab?  

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5 minutes ago, Fergasun said:

Obviously, I am not as kneejerk against this.  First of all, these top teams dominate their domestic leagues and Champions League anyway.  Second, I watch to see the best teams, the best players.  World Cup did draw me in, but Champions League is what has kept me watching European soccer.  

 

I see issues with Superleague -- first, they need to open up slots for promotion and share some profits to incentivize teams to promote in (even if they don't relegate the original 12 or 15).  Second, the owners should have just made new club names and forked their teams rather than keep their club information.  Seems like they should be able to keep parallel teams in their domestic league.

 

I mean Champions League is a money grab.  So they are upset because the clubs want their own money grab?  

These parallels with the Champions League are for the most part imaginary. It’s a competition that was expanded in the 90s, has been around for decades, competing teams earn the right to play and it’s put on by a governing body. Other than all that yeah same thing. 

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I understand the outcry, but let me give you another example.  Do you remember WWF before the Monday Night Wars?  Most TV matches were just stomp matches for the big teams to beat up on little "jobbers". Someone in wrestling got smart and realized you could put a helluva good product on TV if you actually showcased the best wrestlers against each other is worthwhile matches.  Now take that and put it in a 20 team Super League... with 66 percent of the European Champions involved (for the past 65 years).  I'm watching this... 

 

Sure, Barry Horrowitz, the Brooklyn Brawler and Iron Mike Sharpe were "traditional".

 

Here's the flip side... why should these billionaires subsidize the domestic leagues? Are they not free to form their own league and monopolize the best players?  There will still be underdogs in this Super League.

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2 minutes ago, Fergasun said:

I understand the outcry, but let me give you another example.  Do you remember WWF before the Monday Night Wars?  Most TV matches were just stomp matches for the big teams to beat up on little "jobbers". Someone in wrestling got smart and realized you could put a helluva good product on TV if you actually showcased the best wrestlers against each other is worthwhile matches.  Now take that and put it in a 20 team Super League... with 66 percent of the European Champions involved (for the past 65 years).  I'm watching this... 

 

Sure, Barry Horrowitz, the Brooklyn Brawler and Iron Mike Sharpe were "traditional".

 

Here's the flip side... why should these billionaires subsidize the domestic leagues? Are they not free to form their own league and monopolize the best players?  There will still be underdogs in this Super League.

I remember pro Wrestling is predicated on who was perceived to sell the most tickets with no organic competition. Other than the predetermined outcomes that’s just about what we have here. It’s a sham put on purely for the spectacle. If it wasn’t the Milan clubs would be nowhere near it. 

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19 hours ago, Fergasun said:

I mean Champions League is a money grab.  So they are upset because the clubs want their own money grab?  

 

The issue is less the money grab and more the fact that these clubs, while their domestic leagues are getting more competitive, are trying to lock in permanent seats in European soccer.  If you rewind the Premier League 20 years, the top spots were basically always Arsenal, Man U, Liverpool and Tottenham.  That was it.  Suddenly first Chelsea and later Man City come along, and some clubs that were banking on annual Champions League money now are only qualifying 2/3 of the time.  Arsenal, for instance, was in every Champions league for almost 20 years starting the late 90s.  Now they haven't even qualified in 3 years and might miss European competition altogether. Right at this moment, the top 4 Champions League qualifier spots in the Premier League are held by Man City, Man U, Leicester and West Ham.  3 of those 4 would've been unheard of just 10 years ago.  It was one thing when they were winning, but the big clubs are literally getting beat on the field and freaking out that it's going to hurt their pocketbooks.

Edited by balki1867
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This isn't rocket science. The 12 teams in question are not the 12 best teams in Europe. If the basis for inclusion in this thing is not competitive than the very spirit of competitive sports has been violated. 

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Well, that went smoothly.  Good on the fans, supporter unions, players, and coaches for getting the ESL thrown in the trash where it belongs.

 

Gonna take a while (if ever) for the owners of those clubs to win back the fans.  Especially, the LFC fans.  FSG took a good thing and straight ****ed it all up for themselves.  If Klopp is smart, he's banging the table for a massive transfer war chest.  FSG almost has to say yes to try to distract the fans with new shiny players and (hopefully) hardware. 

 

Amazing really how they've ****ed this up.  Went from "saving" the club financially, hiring a generational coach, and bringing CL and PL trophies in back to back years to this.  Will be a case study for sports owners for decades.

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17 hours ago, Berggy9598 said:

This isn't rocket science. The 12 teams in question are not the 12 best teams in Europe. If the basis for inclusion in this thing is not competitive than the very spirit of competitive sports has been violated. 


If we are including teams based on history,  Preston North End, Sunderland and Newcastle are all well ahead of Manchester City.

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So was the major issue of the ESL locking in the founding teams? If the financial backers came out and worked with the domestic leagues and said "Top 3 from the 5 major leagues plus remaining 5 thru a qualification tournament" (thinking one tie for 10 teams which includes lower leagues). people would be fine with it? 

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45 minutes ago, Fergasun said:

So was the major issue of the ESL locking in the founding teams? If the financial backers came out and worked with the domestic leagues and said "Top 3 from the 5 major leagues plus remaining 5 thru a qualification tournament" (thinking one tie for 10 teams which includes lower leagues). people would be fine with it? 

I'm far from an expert on this and the fan outrage.  If were the annual top 3 (meaning they'd change each year), then it's not that much different than the current CL... only even LESS predictable than the current CL format.

 

The owners of the breakaway club wanted to create a predictable annual winfall.  The "Big6" owners in England don't like the chances that their team will be one of the two (or more) that miss out on the CL money.  Businessmen want predictable and sustainable profits.  Plus, this would have also given them a bigger slice of the pie.  

 

Why are fans against it?  Because it locks in the winners and locks out the rest of the footballing world.  It's not in the spirit of fair competition to do that.  

 

FIFA and UEFA were only against the idea because it would take away from THEIR cash grabs.  These organizations are a freakin' joke top to bottom.  If they could create another competition to sell to fans and TV to make another billion dollars, they'd do it in a heartbeat without thinking of the health and safety of the players.

 

Absolutely crazy, though, for the owners not to consider the supporter reaction.  100% nuts.  It's so predictable... the fan reaction (and the owner's ineptitude in not planning for it).  This super league was going NOWHERE without universal fan support from all 15 (or whatever) founding teams.  Fat chance that.

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Agree with @dchogs 100%.

 

The only things I'd add is that right now, Champions League is bonus competition for successful clubs, but the domestic tournaments are still their bread and butter.  English teams play 38 EPL games every season and 6 to 13 Champions league matches, depending on how far they go.  Additionally they also play in the EFL/FA cups which can take up 2-5 games (not sure of the exact numbers and too lazy to look it up) each depending on how far they go.  If a team were to win all 4 competitions, they'd play ~61 games. And they have to actually be competitive in those matches.

 

Under the proposed Super League format, they would each play 18-25 games in the Super League, plus the 42 to 52 domestic games they plan annually, which would come to 60 to 77 games total.  It would only be a matter of time before the Big 6 asked for more concessions, like not playing in the EFL/FA cups, guaranteed exemption for promotion/relegation, special scheduling, etc.). And eventually the domestic league becomes secondary, so they're literally fielding a B team for those games.

 

I'm not going to argue with the teams ability/desire to monetize, but the proposal punishes the most loyal parts of the fanbase, and the fans of the Big 6 already know this.

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1 hour ago, balki1867 said:

Under the proposed Super League format, they would each play 18-25 games in the Super League, plus the 42 to 52 domestic games they plan annually, which would come to 60 to 77 games total.  It would only be a matter of time before the Big 6 asked for more concessions, like not playing in the EFL/FA cups, guaranteed exemption for promotion/relegation, special scheduling, etc.). And eventually the domestic league becomes secondary, so they're literally fielding a B team for those games.

 

 

.... the proposal punishes the most loyal parts of the fanbase, and the fans of the Big 6 already know this.

Yes, forgot that aspect.  Absolutely.

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