tshile Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 I remain confident that Zorn could have been a good coach, in the right situation. But he was in a bad situation. He had no real control. Could you imagine if Zorn actuallly sat, or cut, portis because of his worth ethics? It wouldn't have happened, Snyder wouldn't have allowed it. Shanahan, however... it was almost a forgone conclusion that Portis would be cut when he was hired... remember? Thats the difference in situations... its not suprising Zorn didn't succeed. He was set up for failure from the start. The change that has occured following the last two seasons were not an indictment on Zorn and his coaching staff - it was an indictment on Snyder and his management team and style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 The fact that Jim Zorn started off 6-2 as a rookie head coach shows that he had the potential to be a good head coach. There's a lot of things done and said in the locker room, at practice etc. and the players see things that we fans can't see. MOST teams that aren't awful have a nice streak at one point during a season I don't know if that streaks sums up a coaches potential. I'll give that when the O line started to have injuries it all fell apart, but the skins aren't the only team with issues with injuries including on the line, and things didn't just fall apart they collapsed. Though I agree talent is pretty much always the operative issue, and it can often overcome bad coaching. And they started to look bad with a healthy O line even during Zorn's streak, they liked awful against the Browns, almost lost to the Lions. To me Zorn's streak wasn't driven by brilliant play calling, if you recall it was Portis on fire, and them grinding out wins with the running game and defense. JC played better during that time but I suspect the defensive loading up on Portis had something to do with it. As for the players seeing things -- have you been reading all the comments from the players? Randle El seems to be the exception not the rule when it comes to talking about Zorn. The best Zorn seems to do with players is he is a nice guy and comments that Shanny really knows what he's doing and is changing the culture for the better of the team without explicit shots made at Zorn at the same tim. In combination of players and reporters covering the team, these are some of the things that have been said: Last season there was little discipline and leadership the offense was predictable and easy to stop the offense wasn't good at creating favorable match ups some players walked over Zorn practices weren't as organized and crisp the way they are now he wasn't a demanding coach, practices were light. Do you recall on 2 different national broadcasts last year, commentators, if I recall Boomer was one of them said they were UNIMPRESSED with the way the Redskins practiced and prepared during the week for the game. If you guys recall Peter King went to camps around the league last summer, after watching the Skins he said they didn't match the intensity of some of the others he was watching and he predicted we'd go 5-11. there was some outcry on the board after that, but he was pretty accurate at the end of the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan T. Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 We have a recent sad history of signing players who take the $$$ and then loaf because they could. ARE is one of them, and for him to be runnin' his yap now is hypocrisy of the rankest kind. Randel-El was NOT one of them. I don't know where you get that from. He was one guy you could count on to give maximum effort, and he was also a positive locker room influence. I think that because he was ineffective in the highly visible punt returner role that people have this skewed image of overall suckitude for him. LDO56's post is a prime example of that. El was an above average, sure handed slot receiver. And he gave his all in practice and on the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morningside Skins Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 So is Antwaan "catch-a-punt-run-around-in-a-circle-and-fall-down" Randel El saying that Snyder held Zorn back on that swinging gate play? As a guy who was returning punts solely to justify the ridiculous contract Cerrato gave him, that's rich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 By the way... Zorn started 6-2 because noone knew what he was going to do. Shanahan will start off well too, because he has the same advantage. The difference will be he's smart enough to constantly change the system and keep that advantage, where as Zorn pulled a Spurier 'This is pretty easy' moment... and was quickly brought back to reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 Randel-El was NOT one of them. I don't know where you get that from. He was one guy you could count on to give maximum effort, and he was also a positive locker room influence.I think that because he was ineffective in the highly visible punt returner role that people have this skewed image of overall suckitude for him. LDO56's post is a prime example of that. El was an above average, sure handed slot receiver. And he gave his all in practice and on the field. Solid post. I would feel better about the WR position if ARE was still in the fold. But he certainly lost the fearlessness to be an effective PR. Zorn's/Vinny/Synder 1st failure was with the ad hoc coaching staff filled with left overs from a different scheme and a offensive staff with 0 playcalling experience and 0 experience at their new positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laxpck Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 Punt returner, hahahaha. I like to think of him as a fair catch specialist. Nothing special about the muff that cost us the game in Charlotte last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice_of_Reason Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 I generally dont defend Dan, but if i owned the team and saw 80% of the pass plays as screens, I might interfere too? Also, wasn't there a rumor that the reason ARE wasn't benches from punt returning that snyder intervened? I liked ARE, but damn man, just keep your trap shutbafter you leave... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffro Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 It makes sense that he backed up Zorn considering Zorn was the only person who had enough confidence to allow him in the game. But no, on a serious note, I don't really put much in this.. Zorn supported Randle during all of his fumbles/muffed punts etc, what choice does he have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gortiz Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 i really wanted zorn to be successful there ... it is really a shame how snyda CRAPPED the bed on this. he should have given zorn more support, and also he should have had the foresight to not put so much on his plate right off the bat ... i.e. OC, QB coach, etc., etc. sucks. i happy now though ... real happy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdpell Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 I have already put the "Zorn Years" behind me. It will be but a blip in the storied history of a great franchise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bird_1972 Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 We can only hope the owner at age 45 and 11 years of getting his ass kicked (4 last place finishes, only 2 seasons with 10 wins, no appearances in conference title games only 1 division title) has realized how much of the ****ed culture was his responsibility. Either that or if the Shanahan experiment fails, one hopes he goes bankrupt and is forced to sell the team. And the "****ed culture", as you put it, is 100% on Snyder. 100%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFKFedEx Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 The Portis benching before the Baltimore game in '08 when CP decided he wanted to play with the U crew from both teams. I think Danny had a hand in that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dockeryfan Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 I have already put the "Zorn Years" behind me. It will be but a blip in the storied history of a great franchise. Absolutely. Just like the Spurrier. Every team has them. Eagles had Kotite. Giants had Handley. etc etc etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redskindan07 Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 I think the wind held ARE back during punt returns... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zCommander Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 I think Snyder meddled a fair bit in Zorn's business as the HC. Sure, I buy that somewhat.But overall, give me a break. Zorn's too nice to be a HC, he's a bit of a geek, and he was clearly in over his head running the entire show. Now, maybe if he had been paired up with a really strong GM and a DC who helped take control of the team rather than quit halfway through the season, Zorn would've had a bit of an easier time. It's fair to say that his supporting cast of coaches/front office people sucked as bad as he did. But I don't think Snyder's too much to blame for the big picture. I agree with you here. But, I would say Joe back in the 80's looked more geeky then Zorn with his big glasses and all - But Joe had a better supporting cast from the FO to the coaches to the O-Line. And Snyder is to blame for the big picture. He didn't want to replace Vinny and should have a long time ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianm23 Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 I honestly believe that Zorn could have been a good coach, but not here in Washington. He had three key things going against him while being the Redskins coach. 1) A bad QB that lacked the intelligence to grasp the offense. Remember he only gave him a certain amount of plays that first year because he couldn't grasp it all, and instituted another 100 the following training camp. 2) A meddling owner that thought he knew football more than people who've spent their entire life playing and coaching this game. This same person also is the key reason why the players never gave Zorn respect as he couldn't discipline the team like he should have. 3) Past achievements and credibility to garner respect from the players. You make fun of the whack plays he ran at the end, but lets be serious. If you knew you were going to be fired, and had nothing to lose, why wouldn't you try some stupid off the wall bull**** play twice? If you succeed, you look like a genius, and his image was already at a low so it didn't make him look any worse. He probably stopped caring the moment they stripped him of his play calling abilities. That said, I think Zorn was in over his head at the time, and should have just stuck with being a offensive coordinator for the time being. Don't take a job when you know you aren't qualified for it, it can only lead to disastrious results. That was then...this is NOW!! Assigning blame to Dan Synder, Vinny Cerrato, Jim Zorn, Greg Blache, CP,Landry or anyone else will NOT change what happend the last two years. Frankly I don't give a damn. So what? So dan runs out and gets the shiniest toy out (shanny) and you want to make it like he's changed? No, he has 10 years to make up for the stupidity he's brought to this team, and it's going to take more than 1 off season to change that. How many off-seasons have seen with "new changed" to the Redskins? A shiny new coach, or a shiny new player that fills Redskins fans with false hope. We have a reason to be skeptical about Danny and his ways. Snyder held Zorn back because Zorn let him. Zorn is too passive to be a HC in this league, as evidenced by the debacle that was last year. No, when he did tried to stand up for himself, he had Vinny break out the contract and remind him he had to do these things. Remember Steve Largent speaking out about this after they tried to strip his duties? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LD0506 Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 I have already put the "Zorn Years" behind me. It will be but a blip in the storied history of a great franchise. I am not worried about the "Zorn Years" as much as I am hoping we can put the disastrous "Vinnie Decade" behind us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yeen80 Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 No big shock there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSHRedskins3ATLBraves3 Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 I am not worried about the "Zorn Years" as much as I am hoping we can put the disastrous "Vinnie Decade" behind us. to putting the vinny decade behind us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UK_HOG Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 Who cares what Randle El thinks. He was happy enough to take Snyders money and it's not like Snyder changed. Randle El is just another one of Snyders mistakes. Hopefully He has finally learned and let's the football people run the Francise now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiingspadee Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 I don't know about worst.... but pretty damn awful. He'd catch the ball fire off a couple dance moves and go down. Every. Friggin. Time. You never saw that Know Your Redskins and they did one with El and he said he wants to be a professional tap dancer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins24 Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 So what? So dan runs out and gets the shiniest toy out (shanny) and you want to make it like he's changed? No, he has 10 years to make up for the stupidity he's brought to this team, and it's going to take more than 1 off season to change that. How many off-seasons have seen with "new changed" to the Redskins? A shiny new coach, or a shiny new player that fills Redskins fans with false hope. We have a reason to be skeptical about Danny and his ways. We saw what happened last time he brought in a credible shiny new toy (Gibbs.) We went to the playoffs with Scott Freakin' Brunell. He also brought in two credible shiny new toys this time. The other being Bruce Allen. How is that not a change? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santana_89 Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 So what? So dan runs out and gets the shiniest toy out (shanny) and you want to make it like he's changed? No, he has 10 years to make up for the stupidity he's brought to this team, and it's going to take more than 1 off season to change that. How many off-seasons have seen with "new changed" to the Redskins? A shiny new coach, or a shiny new player that fills Redskins fans with false hope. We have a reason to be skeptical about Danny and his ways. No Bruce went out and hired the coach he thought was best to lead this team. Who are YOU or anyone else to say Synder hasn't changed?? Are you in his inner circle? Are you psychic? Only time will tell if Synder has changed. Only time will tell what will happen with this team. The difference with the Skins this year is that we have a bonafied NFL caliber GM. Shanahan is a PROVEN Superbowl head coach, Mc Nabb is a NFC champion qb. This organization is on the right track at last. I swear no matter what the Skins do some people will find something to ***** about anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianm23 Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 We saw what happened last time he brought in a credible shiny new toy (Gibbs.)We went to the playoffs with Scott Freakin' Brunell. He also brought in two credible shiny new toys this time. The other being Bruce Allen. How is that not a change? How credible is Bruce Allen? His Tampa Bay team sucked, so what body of work are you going on? When these guys complete their contracts in its entirety without any interference from Danny boy, that will be change. Until that time, it is what it is. Gibbs tenure was a failure. One playoff appearance is what you are hanging your hat on? Let's go back and reflect on all the stupid moves he made and the draft picks he squandered because the NFL had passed him over. I love Gibbs, but his second tenure here was crap and you know it. No Bruce went out and hired the coach he thought was best to lead this team. Who are YOU or anyone else to say Synder hasn't changed?? Are you in his inner circle? Are you psychic? Only time will tell if Synder has changed. I swear no matter what the Skins do some people will find something to ***** about anyway. Bruce didn't hire Shanny, Dan did. If so, how does Bruce hire somebody who has higher authority than he does? Oh wait...he can't. Last time I checked, it's Shanny that has the final say so on the personnel decisions, not Allen. I didn't say Danny hasn't changed, and for you to assume I said that is downright idiotic. Let's review what I said. No, he has 10 years to make up for the stupidity he's brought to this team, and it's going to take more than 1 off season to change that. I don't know, and neither does anybody else. It's going to take time (much like I said above) to find out whether he's changed or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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