Sexual Harassment (where is the line?)

[Fergasun]

If you are of a boorish inclination, and enjoy the bowdy humor of today, you may be wondering "does my humor constitute sexual harrassment"? So today, I present to you the case of Baskervile v. Culligan Internationl Company (50 F. 3d 428 - Court of Appeals, 7th Circuit 1995). This is my public service announcement, because we all need to know how far we can take our childish humor in the workplace.

The case was decided on appeal.

The crimes:

1. He would call her "pretty girl," as in "There's always a pretty girl giving me something to sign off on." 2. Once, when she was wearing a leather skirt, he made a grunting sound that sounded like "um um um" as she turned to leave his office.

3. Once when she commented on how hot his office was, he raised his eyebrows and said, "Not until you stepped your foot in here."

4. Once when the announcement "May I have your attention, please" was broadcast over the public-address system, Hall stopped at Baskerville's desk and said, "You know what that means, don't you? All pretty girls run around naked."

5. He once called Baskerville a "tilly," explaining that he uses the term for all women.

6. He once told her that his wife had told him he had "better clean up my act" and "better think of you as Ms. Anita Hill."

7. When asked by Baskerville why he had left the office Christmas Party early, Hall replied that there were so many pretty girls there that he "didn't want to lose control, so I thought I'd better leave."

8. Once when she complained that his office was "smokey" from cigarette smoke, Hall replied, "Oh really? Were we dancing, like in a nightclub?"

9. When she asked him whether he had gotten his wife a Valentine's Day card, he responded that he had not but he should because it was lonely in his hotel room (his wife had not yet moved to Chicago) and all he had for company was his pillow. Then Hall looked ostentatiously at his hand. The gesture was intended to suggest masturbation.

The verdict:

Mr. Hall, whatever his qualities as a sales manager, is not a man of refinement; but neither is he a sexual harasser. He never touched the plaintiff. He did not invite her, explicitly or by implication, to have sex with him, or to go out on a date with him. He made no threats. He did not expose himself, or show her dirty pictures. He never said anything to her that could not be repeated on primetime television. The comment about Anita Hill was the opposite of solicitation, the implication being that he would get into trouble if he didn't keep his distance. The use of the word "tilly" (an Irish word for something added for good measure, and a World War II British slang term for a truck) to refer to a woman is apparently an innovation of Hall's, and its point remains entirely obscure. Some of his repartée, such as, "Not until you stepped your foot in here," or, "Were we dancing, like in a nightclub?," has the sexual charge of an Abbott and Costello movie. The reference to masturbation completes the impression of a man whose sense of humor took final shape in adolescence. It is no doubt distasteful to a sensitive woman to have such a silly man as one's boss, but only a woman of Victorian delicacy — a woman mysteriously aloof from contemporary American popular culture in all its sex-saturated vulgarity — would find Hall's patter substantially more distressing than the heat and cigarette smoke of which the plaintiff does not complain. The infrequency of the offensive comments is relevant to an assessment of their impact. A handful of comments spread over months is unlikely to have so great an emotional impact as a concentrated or incessant barrage.

So there you have it. If you are one like me who makes sexually suggestive jokes (aimed at no one) and fear that some "tilly" is going to report you... well you have nothing to worry about.

[NewCliche21]

Completely incorrect.

I know people personally who have lost sexual harrassment cases for those jokes.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Most of those jokes seem pretty over the line. I'm not against some humor and I have a good relationship with a lot of the girls I work with, but you're just hanging yourself out to dry if you say some of the things that were quoted.

[Kosher Ham]

Interesting.

I don't know that he sexually harassed her as much as he came off as an idiot.

But I could see how things could possibly be interpreted that he might have.

Another question is when did the plaintiff consider that this behavior was harassment ? Was it after denial for a raise or promotion, perhaps termination ?

[zoony]

His comments are unprofessional and not appropriate. Worst of all, they're just dumb.

Just STFU and do your job. Why is that so hard for some people? He should be fired, if nothing else, for being a dumbass.

.....

[TMK9973]

They are dumb...but the thing is, she wouldn't win unless she objected to it at least once.

If she simply smiled, walked away, and then hit him with a lawsuit then she has no case.

If she said "stop" and then he continued, then it's a different story.

All in all, I think the courts made the right choice here.

[renaissance]

Sexual harassment or not, those are all pretty inappropriate for a professional environment.

If you're a guy, tell me the following wouldn't make you uncomfortable at work, all jokes aside.

1. She would call him "hot guy," as in "There's always a hot guy giving me something to sign off on."

2. Once, when he was wearing tighter pants, she made a grunting sound that sounded like "um um um" as he turned to leave his office.

3. Once when he commented on how hot her office was, she raised her eyebrows and said, "Not until you stepped your foot in here."

4. Once when the announcement "May I have your attention, please" was broadcast over the public-address system, Hall stopped at Baskerville's desk and said, "You know what that means, don't you? All hot guys run around naked."

5. He once called Baskerville a "tilly," explaining that he uses the term for all women. (sorry I don't know how to replace this as I've never heard that term before, )

6. She once told him that her husband had told her she had "better clean up my act" and "she better think of him as Dan Gallagher." (sorry, hard to find a good male reference there again, haha)

7. When asked by Baskerville why she had left the office Christmas Party early, Hall replied that there were so many hot guys there that she "didn't want to lose control, so I thought I'd better leave."

8. Once when he complained that her office was "smokey" from cigarette smoke, Hall replied, "Oh really? Were we dancing, like in a nightclub?"

9. When he asked her whether he she gotten her husband a Valentine's Day card, she responded that she had not but she should because it was lonely in her hotel room (her husband had not yet moved to Chicago) and all she had for company was his pillow. Then Hall looked ostentatiously at her hand. The gesture was intended to suggest masturbation.

[sjinhan]

from some of my college courses that dealt with law.. taught by an actual big time lawyer in Pittsburgh... i think he said something to the fact that if you are harassing a single person then you can get sued for "improper" jokes.

However there is a situation where if the person's sense of humor is just generally "improper" and he treats and talks to EVERYONE (not discriminating) then he could get off clean. He said he had a client that made a "suggestive move" toward some new office girl and got sued. The lawyer said he got the client off clean because he was able to prove that that is just how he behaved normally to BOTH men and women in the office. The client was guilty of having poor sense of humor and acting inappropriate for a professional BUT not guilty of sexual harassment. A dude from the office had to testify about how the client used to comment about his firm butt in court hahahaha...

[brianm23]

Keep comments like that to yourself at work. It's not the time or the place, nor is it worth a trip to HR (or court) over. It's all about respect, and women want respect from you professionally just as much as you do from your co-workers.

I'm with Zoony on this. The guy should be fired just for being a dumbass.

[Rocky21]

a man whose sense of humor took final shape in adolescence:ols:

[polywog999]

His comments are unprofessional and not appropriate. Worst of all, they're just dumb.

Just STFU and do your job. Why is that so hard for some people? He should be fired, if nothing else, for being a dumbass.

.....

Horror of horrors! The man is somewhat uncouth! Lets humiliate him, take his job away and make him destitute.

Come on ppl, how about a little sensitivity training? Or is that being too compassionate?

I have very little sympathy for people who cannot take up for themselves and establish proper boundaries. You will not always have authority around to keep sleazy guys in check!

Lets ruin his life because a bunch of uptight do-good-ers says It's the proper thing to do.

[Skin'Em84]

Lol he should just be required to paste the verdict at the end of his resume :-p

Seriously though, Zoony is right that he is an idiot; it seems that it obviously made her uncomfortable, and he should've stopped.

Now, I've worked in offices before where we joke like that with everyone and no one cares, as long as the work gets done.

[Ax]

If you're a guy, tell me the following wouldn't make you uncomfortable at work, all jokes aside.

1. She would call him "hot guy," as in "There's always a hot guy giving me something to sign off on."

2. Once, when he was wearing tighter pants, she made a grunting sound that sounded like "um um um" as he turned to leave his office.

3. Once when he commented on how hot her office was, she raised her eyebrows and said, "Not until you stepped your foot in here."

4. Once when the announcement "May I have your attention, please" was broadcast over the public-address system, Hall stopped at Baskerville's desk and said, "You know what that means, don't you? All hot guys run around naked."

5. He once called Baskerville a "tilly," explaining that he uses the term for all women. (sorry I don't know how to replace this as I've never heard that term before, )

6. She once told him that her husband had told her she had "better clean up my act" and "she better think of him as Dan Gallagher." (sorry, hard to find a good male reference there again, haha)

7. When asked by Baskerville why she had left the office Christmas Party early, Hall replied that there were so many hot guys there that she "didn't want to lose control, so I thought I'd better leave."

8. Once when he complained that her office was "smokey" from cigarette smoke, Hall replied, "Oh really? Were we dancing, like in a nightclub?"

9. When he asked her whether he she gotten her husband a Valentine's Day card, she responded that she had not but she should because it was lonely in her hotel room (her husband had not yet moved to Chicago) and all she had for company was his pillow. Then Hall looked ostentatiously at her hand. The gesture was intended to suggest masturbation.

Wouldn't make me uncomfortable, at all.

[TheLongshot]

To me, it depends on the workplace and your coworkers. My former boss was pretty loose with everyone, tho I don't think he went over the line. I'm also pretty loose as well, but I've also worked with my coworkers a couple of years and have felt out what is and isn't acceptable.

As for the guy above, most of the comments were kinda stupid and borderline. I wonder how hard she pushed back on it.

[NewCliche21]

If you have to question it, then don't do it.

As zoony said: STFU and do your job. The jokes aren't funny, and the first rule of comedy is to know your audience.

The guy should grow some balls instead of trying to cover up the fact that he's insecure about his with some terrible joke.

[81artmonk]

IMO none of that is considered SH. Unless someone physically touches you in a sexual way, it shouldn't be considered SH.

From what I read, most of what he was saying was complemtary to the woman on how attractive she was.

Now if she told him she didn't like the way he spoke to her, and he continued, than you have a simple harassment problem, but not a sexual harassment problem.

[polywog999]

Interesting.

I don't know that he sexually harassed her as much as he came off as an idiot.

But I could see how things could possibly be interpreted that he might have.

Another question is when did the plaintiff consider that this behavior was harassment ? Was it after denial for a raise or promotion, perhaps termination ?

This is very poor grounds for sexual harassment. He will probably sue over losing his job and there is a very good chance that he will win. It's mostly not even close to a good case.

[twa]

If you have to question it, then don't do it.

As zoony said: STFU and do your job. The jokes aren't funny, and the first rule of comedy is to know your audience.

The guy should grow some balls instead of trying to cover up the fact that he's insecure about his with some terrible joke.

Good advice

My standard is to require the same consideration for all I would expect to be extended to my wife.

If you knowingly are offensive,you better reign it it or find another job.

If you do not realize it,it will be explained to you.

Just curious, in your earlier post were those harassment cases settled by the court or HR?

[Chump Bailey]

Most of those jokes seem pretty over the line. I'm not against some humor and I have a good relationship with a lot of the girls I work with, but you're just hanging yourself out to dry if you say some of the things that were quoted.

Pretty much. My workplace is freaking nuts though. I have female managers showing me naked pictures of themselves to me on their phone. I take it all in stride though.

[addicted]

My expirence is if your a good looking guy or gal you can get away with just about anything and the person won't mind.

The moral of the story is don't be ugly. Only ugly people committ harassment

[Chump Bailey]

My expirence is if your a good looking guy or gal you can get away with just about anything and the person won't mind.

The moral of the story is don't be ugly. Only ugly people committ harassment

There's a lot of truth in this...

[NewCliche21]

Good advice

My standard is to require the same consideration for all I would expect to be extended to my wife.

If you knowingly are offensive,you better reign it it or find another job.

If you do not realize it,it will be explained to you.

Just curious, in your earlier post were those harassment cases settled by the court or HR?

I like the way that you put that. I like it a lot, actually. I'm going to use that. And credit an old airline, apparently.

Some were court, some were civil, the job losses were HR. Both private and public sector had an equal distribution.

As for those with ridiculous definitions of sexual harrassment: I'm sure that you'd be thrilled with this guy talking to your daughter like that and that doing :jerk: to her wouldn't be offensive at all. Some airline told me that.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

My expirence is if your a good looking guy or gal you can get away with just about anything and the person won't mind.

The moral of the story is don't be ugly. Only ugly people committ harassment

That's ringing a bell. I think it was a SNL skit or something. I'll have to search on it.

[Bang]

IMO none of that is considered SH. Unless someone physically touches you in a sexual way, it shouldn't be considered SH.

From what I read, most of what he was saying was complemtary to the woman on how attractive she was.

Now if she told him she didn't like the way he spoke to her, and he continued, than you have a simple harassment problem, but not a sexual harassment problem.

Like TWA said, if this isn't sexual harrassment, I expect you'd have no problem if your wife's boss talked to her this way?

I very much doubt it.

In reading over the charges, they all seemed to be pretty much common sense examples of what not to do in the workplace.

~Bang

[Bang]

That's ringing a bell. I think it was a SNL skit or something. I'll have to search on it.

gBVuAGFcGKY

~Bang