The Figure Four - ALL Things ECW-WWF-NJPW-TNA-ROH-AEW

[KDawg]

just read the results online. Looks like a show that folks might say wouldn't even be a good Raw.

 

I wouldn't say it was that bad, to be honest.

 

Cena and Rusev wrestled a good match (though I'm tired of there always needing to be an excuse for Cena to lose. He can't lose clean to anyone not named Lesnar or Rock. It's annoying.)

 

Reigns and Bryan had a great match. The Sting/Trips confrontation was decent.

 

The tag match was good, but the Uso's are really boring to me at this point. They're just in the picture too often for me. Glad Kidd/Cesaro won.

 

Gold/Stardust could have been great but they didn't give it the build it deserved. It got better the last two weeks, and I hope the final payoff at Mania is built better.

 

The opening match stunk. Too slow. Some good spots and decent ring work but slowwwwwwwww. Orton's return was decent.

[KDawg]

PS the end to the Gold/Star match sucked. The roll up and the ref didn't hit the mat for the three count but rang the bell anyways...

 

If they work that into the angle, it's my opinion, that they are covering for the ref's blunder. Because he looked like he screwed up.

 

Also, Lillian Garcia had a rough night.

[@DCGoldPants]

I wouldn't say it was that bad, to be honest.

 

 

 

If you start with that, it does sound pretty bad.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

Also, Lillian Garcia had a rough night.

Either a situation of too much strudel or not enough strudel going on...

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

To me, the Rhodes bros match really set a poor tone. Both those guys are good workers but damn that match was horrid

From then on the crowd knew what they were in for

Cena and Rusev had a nice one tho and the main event was good as well

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Quick thoughts.

 

1. That may have killed Bryan once and for all. It seemed to me like there was a mini-backlash starting against him after The Rumble, and I can't see people continually to invest in him knowing that he is never going to get the top spot. I also have no earthly idea what he's going to be doing for Wrestlemania now. He has no program.

 

2. Does anyone on Earth really want to see either Wyatt-UT or Sting-HHH? I have no idea what the issue is between Wyatt and UT other than "Well, they both need a match." And the Sting-HHH issue seems to be "You didn't sign with us 15 years ago when we could have used you." I've made this analogy before, but Sing-HHH is like having Bruno-Dory Funk be the co-main event at the first Wrestlemania. (Which actually might have been a fun match at the time).

 

3. Cena is treading water. I assume we are going to have a rematch, and it will be fine. But I'm not sure what the hope is with this feud.

 

4. Continuing a theme, the Rhodes feud is getting no one over - except maybe Dusty, which actually makes sense. You could drop Dusty into a fed in Mongolia and he would get over in the middle of his first promo. Dusty is also pushing 70.

 

This really seems to be every WWE PPV now - pretty good matches that lead to nothing.

Edited February 23, 2015 by Lombardi's_kid_brother

[MattFancy]

 

2. Does anyone on Earth really want to see either Wyatt-UT or Sting-HHH? I have no idea what the issue is between Wyatt and UT other than "Well, they both need a match." And the Sting-HHH issue seems to be "You didn't sign with us 15 years ago when we could have used you." I've made this analogy before, but Sing-HHH is like having Bruno-Dory Funk be the co-main event at the first Wrestlemania. (Which actually might have been a fun match at the time).

 

 

You forgot Gallen...

[KDawg]

The problem is that no one can follow nuances of a story because most people I know fast forward through RAW and don't even watch Smackdown (the other problem, and the larger problem, is that I'm not sure these little nuances even exist with the creative aspect of the show).  Why do people not watch Smackdown and fast forward RAW? Because there's too much programming right now. Way too much.

 

Overexposure kills wrestlers. Too much product means too much going on at once. There's just a ton to digest in a 5 hour block of main programming (and when you don't watch most of that block, you can't digest it). Plus all the twitter stuff. Plus all the other stuff going on. It's just too much. NXT works. Why? One show. One hour. It would probably work if it were two hours, too. But go too much beyond that and it gets watered down and boring. WWE is falling/fell into that awhile ago. I'm seriously bored watching it at times.

 

Ambrose/Barrett bored the heck out of me last night. It was bad. I almost fell asleep watching it. So did my buddy.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

KDawg, I honestly forgot they fought until you mentioned it

Also, count me in on the "please no to taker/bray and HHH/Sting"

1. There's absolutely no chance that bray wins. His momentum has been gone for nearly a year

2. Undertaker's body is barely even held together at this point

3. Sting is ancient

4. Who the hell ever say and said "man, sting vs HHH. That's a dream match all right" ?

Edited February 23, 2015 by BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93

[KDawg]

Here's how it looks like the Mania card is shaking out:

 

WWE Title: Brock Lesnar © vs. Roman Reigns

 

Triple H vs. Sting

 

Bray Wyatt vs. Undertaker

 

Randy Orton vs. Seth Rollins

 

Miz vs. Sandow

 

Goldust vs. Stardust

 

IC Title: Bad News Barrett © vs. Dean Ambrose

 

US Title: Rusev © vs. John Cena

 

Tag Titles: Cesaro/Kidd vs. Usos

 

Divas Title: Nikki © vs. Paige

 

That's a tremendously underwhelming card. They have to do something with a few of these matches and they need to find real spots for some of the other guys.

 

If I were in charge, here's how I'd fix it:

 

10. WWE Title: Brock Lesnar © vs. Roman Reigns

 

9. Sting vs. Triple H

 

8. Bray Wyatt vs. Undertaker

 

7. US Title: Rusev © vs. John Cena

 

6. IC Title: Dean Ambrose © vs. Daniel Bryan vs. Dolph Ziggler

 

5. Tag Title Match: Cesaro/Kidd © vs. Usos vs. Ryback/Rowan

 

4. Divas Title: Nikki © vs. Paige vs. AJ Lee vs. Charlotte

 

3. Randy Orton vs. Seth Rollins

 

2. Goldust vs. Stardust

 

1. Andre the Giant Memorial Battle Royal - Everyone Else

 

PS: I think the opposite, Brave. I don't think there's any conceivable way that Bray Wyatt loses that match. They're going to pass the creepy guy role from Taker to Bray with this match.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 23, 2015 by KDawg

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

So, your solution is sticking Daniel Bryan in the IC title mix? I guess that's a thing.

 

Also, isn't that really just a replay of the card we just had minus the top three matches - two of which involve senior citizens.

 

I don't think you can fix this Mania card. I don't think you want a cash-in at WM, do you? That seems really really cheap. It might make the super-mark crowd happy but you would basically be turning Reigns into Lex Luger - the big doofus that should be the face of the industry but can't quite get his **** together.

 

I'm totally out of fantasy booking ideas. Part of me thinks the move is go with Reigns for three months and just give the title back to Cena and allow everyone to catch their breath. The fans are going to absolutely **** on this main event as is - especially if it is clear that Lesnar is leaving. Goldberg-Lesnar all over again.

 

I mean, who even gets the first title shot? Winner of Cena-Rusev? Rollins?

 

Ok...for funsies....who wins HHH-Sting and why? What this HHH-Sting match really proves is that Sting out-lasted everyone. The Dream Match is Sting-Austin, Sting-Rock, Sting-Michaels, Sting-UT, or Sting-Mankind. This match feels like HHH's never-ending quest to re-write history to make himself the equal of all the top stars of the Attitude Era. When the real story is that Chyna was more over than HHH for most of the 90s.  (I was there, man, and she was).

[KDawg]

So, your solution is sticking Daniel Bryan in the IC title mix? I guess that's a thing.

 

 

100%. They aren't utilizing him correctly anyways, and I fully believe he's going to have to wait in a LONG line for another title shot. Elevate the IC title, keep Bryan relevant and maybe add some appeal to Smackdown with IC Champ Bryan's presence by putting the strap on him.

 

Also, isn't that really just a replay of the card we just had minus the top three matches - two of which involve senior citizens.

 

I was making more realistic type changes. Not whole sale changes. Gold/Stardust match is going to happen. The other matches are going to happen. I was trying to find a place to realistically put some extra folks in.

 

I don't think you can fix this Mania card. I don't think you want a cash-in at WM, do you? That seems really really cheap. It might make the super-mark crowd happy but you would basically be turning Reigns into Lex Luger - the big doofus that should be the face of the industry but can't quite get his **** together.

 

I think that's exactly where they're going, though. Cash in. Instant Rollins vs. Reigns feud. My only hope is that Lesnar re-ups.

 

I mean, who even gets the first title shot? Winner of Cena-Rusev? Rollins?

 

Take your pick. Bray? Rollins? Cena? Orton? Bryan? Rusev?

 

Ok...for funsies....who wins HHH-Sting and why? What this HHH-Sting match really proves is that Sting out-lasted everyone. The Dream Match is Sting-Austin, Sting-Rock, Sting-Michaels, Sting-UT, or Sting-Mankind. This match feels like HHH's never-ending quest to re-write history to make himself the equal of all the top stars of the Attitude Era. When the real story is that Chyna was more over than HHH for most of the 90s.  (I was there, man, and she was).

 

Sting wins. And yeah, I agree.

[TexasSkinsFan]

Watched the ppv, didnt hate it. Mark out moment for me was seeing Rusev go over on Cena and my joy combined with my youngest boy getting upset that Cena lost. I marked out because I thought they would eff up Rusev and they didnt and because my boy is just like his Dad, I marked out for Hogan and Savage when I was his age. Rusev is still the best heat wrestler they got now. He has the size to put up big man matches with Reigns and Lesner Big Show, he fills in for the bully underdog matches against Bryan Ambrose Ziggler, and his character is not talking much which is refreshing since its different then everyone not named Lesner. He should go over at Mania so squashing him to Cena and upsetting those little fans isnt good for Mania and we just saw that match.

Brothers match, Divas match, opening 6 way, and Ambrose Barrett sucked which the latter was a let down. Liked the crazy ending and surprise DQ but left feeling flat as I wanted to see a winner. Randy Orton return, Rusev Cena match, Daniel Bryan telling Reigns not to screw it up at the end of that match were all good moments with me. Liked and disliked the ppv which means it was normal for me except I know its 30 days before Wrestlemania and thats not okay with this lifelong fan at the ppv before.

Not a fan of the card of wrestlemania, dont want to see Sting HHH but Sting will go over. HHH has no problem laying down when it calls for it and it does here. Why should he? HHH was a 2 minute squash to The Ultimate Warrior in his return to WWF, he owes that to Sting for coming to the WWE finally.

Dont want to see Rhodes brothers fued, or the return of the Undertaker. Love the Undertaker but what is the point? Liked Bray popping out of the coffin bit but dont even understand why they want to bring him back. If he goes over, whats the point? If he loses whats the point? Match doesnt make sense on any level to me. They had to build it right to work and they didnt.

Matches I would like to see at mania....

Four Corners Tag Team match for the belts. Make it four teams not two. There arent any teams to carry that belt now so include more stars....Champs, Usos, Show and Kane, and Rowan and Ryback with a surprise twist and the champs retain.

IC Title thriple threat....Ambrose, Bryan, and Ziggler. Move the strap off Barrett and put those three in the ring at the same time against each other and you could tear the house down with that with Ziggler winning

Add a special stipulation in the Andre battle royale. Winner is in the main event that night. Winner would be Rusev, now the championship match is a triple threat with those big men. I put the strap on Rusev if Brock doesnt resign. The problem right now is none of the heels have much heat. For a twist have the MITB case cashed in but Rollins loses which completely shocks everyone. Rollins is the corporate champ but fans arent buying him because of all of his protectors. He needs to take a step back

Since I dont want to see a rematch of Cena Rusev at this point I would reverse course on the Undertaker angle. I would bring out Taker on Raw and have him give his retirement speech and then have Wyatt attack him. Cena makes the save and sets up Cena Wyatt for Mania with the retired Undertaker as the refree.

[@DCGoldPants]

I watched for 45 min last night and wanted to kick the TV. For as much talking as they do now, they seem to be worse at it.

 

I'd blow it all up at WM and start a series of new storylines that gave better value to the other belts. Hell, I'd reintroduce the Cruiser weight belt at WM with a surprise cruiser weight battle royal for the title. I want to see high flyers again.

[KDawg]

I don't get the complaining about Sting/Undertaker at this point.

 

Sting, to me, is well worth it. I bet he can still go in the ring. He's a guy who's been in very good shape for his entire career, and to be quite honest, guys who were older than him were able to put on some pretty fantastic matches. Not to mention, he's been off for quite awhile. I'm willing to bet that he puts on a much more entertaining match than many people around here/in the internet community think he can put on. I'm amped for Sting. I don't think he's going to go out there and set the world on fire with a display of wrestling that can only be rivaled in New Japan or anything. But I think he can put on a capable wrestling match and still tell an amazing story.

 

I think fans sometimes miss that part of wrestling is the ability to tell a story in the ring. Yes, technical skill is incredibly important. But what makes Daniel Bryan fun to watch isn't just because of how many moves he can perform... But he's also able to tell a story in the ring.

 

I think the story part of Sting/H is going to be better than the wrestling, but I think that match is going to deliver big time.

 

As far as Taker goes, I'm buying in. I understand people that have kind of checked out on him since the streak is over, but...

 

I don't know how many of you have seen the promos Wyatt has been doing towards Taker, but they've been pretty damn good. They tell a tremendous story. And the nuances of them have been superb. He did one where he was standing with a nail in his hand next to a coffin. But it wasn't obvious. It wasn't in your face. It was nuanced.

 

I urge you to read these, as it sets the tone for the storyline (these are the transcripts of his promos, I found them on cagesideseats.com)

 

• "What makes you smile? Is it spending time with loved ones? Is it money? Power? Perhaps it's a memory that you hold dear? Maybe it's something nostalgic from your childhood? But me, I'm different. I find enjoyment from the types of things that your mommy and daddy have shielded you from your entire life. I am not like you. I'm different. I am legion amongst men. I fear nothing, living or dead. So I ask you, what makes you smile? Because after what transpires next I promise it will be hard for you to ever smile again. Run!"

• "I have been called many names in the past: Seducer, accuser, destroyer. But you, you may call me Bray. Because I've been watching you man. I've been watching you for quite some time now. And oh how they used to fear you. But look what you gone and did; you let all that fear turn into love and admiration. But me, I'm a little bit different. Me, I am the new face of fear. I am the dragon. The devil is real, man, and he can not wait to see you again. I know you're listening. Find me."

 

• "They say a man is defined by his actions but I am no man. I am everywhere. I am everything. I am the spirit of perpetual negation. I am the reaper. What is it that makes you think that you are immune to me and that there would be no repercussions to your actions? Maybe you think that your sins just don't count. But the eyes of a fool are blinded by pride and now the devil is knocking on your door. Knock. Knock. Knock. He just wants you to come home. Just let him in. Let him in. Let me in."

 

• "Since the dawn of their existence, mankind has struggled to answer one simple question: Where do we go when we die? A man of science would have you believe that we just become one with the Earth, nothing more. A man of faith would view things from a much, much different perspective. But what about those like you and I? We're special. For us, there is no death. Wanna hear a secret? This world is our hell. This world is our hell. We don't belong here. I know you can hear me. Now, my eyes are wide open and I don't fear you anymore; I pity you. It's time for you to go home. Find me. FIND ME!"

 

• "What happened to you was such a tragedy. What happened to you still stirs a rage deep down inside of me. It makes me want to do horrible things. And now look at you. You're an empty shell. And any fear that I once had of you has turned into nothing more than putrid, hateful pity. It's coming. His hands may have created this world. But mine will destroy it. Limbo is no place for a soul like yours. I'm waiting for you. What shakes the heart of a man who can never truly die? I believe I've found the answer. The answer lives within me. The answer is the creature that lives behind my eyes. The answer is Bray Wyatt. Look around you man. There's nowhere left to go. The angel with the burnt wings cometh. It's time. Find me. FIND ME. Or I'll find you."

 

Now, there are some issues with these promos. The first being the one where he says mommy and daddy shielded this mystery target (remember, he just officially revealed, although we all knew, these were about Taker at Fast Lane). Storyline wise, Taker's father was Paul Bearer and his mother was deceased.

 

But the overall aspect is that Wyatt is upset with Taker because he went and allowed the fear that used to rule the WWE turn into love and adoration. Wyatt wants to replace Taker as the living representation of fear. He wants to send Taker "home".

 

This match is going to be, in my opinion, the end of the Undertaker as an in-ring participant in the WWE. I think that at WrestleMania, Bray Wyatt becomes a new version of the Undertaker. That's the plan. That's the story. And I'm excited for it.

 

By the way, check out this video of Taker. Looks like he's gotten himself in pretty darn good shape to me! http://www.cagesideseats.com/wwe/2015/2/22/8085407/the-undertaker-looks-pretty-good-video-wwe-wrestlemania-31-michelle-mccool

Edited February 24, 2015 by KDawg

[Gallen5862]

A special look at Sting

 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

The only time that Sting was really interesting to me was during the Crow Sting hiding in the rafters era. He was a really good worker before that but kind of corny. After that he had a cool look....and stunk in the ring for some reason.

 

I just don't have a lot of interest seeing a 56 year old Sting pretending to be 1997 Era Sting going up against a 45 year old HHH pretending to be 2001 HHH and acting like the two of them EVER had an issue.

 

The only program that ever made sense for Sting is one with UT where two old gunslingers who never crossed paths finally go at it. You acknowledge that these two are past their prime but that they looked at each other across the fence for decades and are testing each other for their own reasons. You basically treat it as one of those Dusty Rhodes-Terry Funk matches that sometimes pop up on indie shows - except they are doing it at Wrestlemania.

[KDawg]

I agree Taker/Sting was the real money match. However, people would have cried about that, too. There's room for veterans in wrestling. The problem WWE demonstrates is that they put too much of the legend stuff in the product and don't focus on the future...

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

While Sting and HHH ever had any reason to truly beef.  On Raw last night, I caught Cole, JBL, etc. mentioning that Sting was the face of WCW during the Monday Night Wars and HHH/DX (think they mentioned dx) went at it back in the day (i.e. the two shows).  

 

Then JBL was saying that they won the Monday night wars and Sting never in his life has faced the talent level of the WWE or HHH.

 

So I guess they are trying to spin the entire Sting being pissed at HHH because he led the Dx army (which I remember them showing up outside of arenas WCW was at live) and eventually put Sting and company out of business.  Kind of corny.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Dont Taze Me Bro

[Mr. Sinister]

Crow Sting is one of the greatest gimmicks ever

[KDawg]

How about this: long term booking:

Sting isn't here for himself. H is going on his own narrative. He thinks it's about WWE vs. WCW, but it's not. Sting is a hired vigilante mercenary by Vince McMahon.

Sting's victory at Mania is used as a jump off point to remove H and Steph from power and give full reigns back to Vince.

This tips off a "Vince's guys vs. H's guys" battle. H gets guys like Bryan to represent his vision of what the future of WWE is. Vince gets the Cenas of the world.

It's not about heels or faces, it's about philosophy of wrestling and the future. Some of the top end NXT guys (Balor, Zayn, Owens, Neville, Itami) join the battle on H's side.

Problem is, they've tried versions of this story and failed. But at least there would be a grand plan.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

While Sting and HHH ever had any reason to truly beef.  On Raw last night, I caught Cole, JBL, etc. mentioning that Sting was the face of WCW during the Monday Night Wars and HHH/DX (think they mentioned dx) went at it back in the day (i.e. the two shows).  

 

Then JBL was saying that they won the Monday night wars and Sting never in his life has faced the talent level of the WWE or HHH.

 

So I guess they are trying to spin the entire Sting being pissed at HHH because he led the Dx army (which I remember them showing up outside of arenas WCW was at live) and eventually put Sting and company out of business.  Kind of corny.

 

 

The WWE's take on wrestling history is always fascinating to me.

 

DX was maybe the 4th most important element of what got WWE hot again in the Attitude Era....and HHH was the 4th most important part of DX. (I'm telling you - Chyna was more over than HHH for YEARS!!)

 

And let me get this straight: Sting was so mad at WWE for putting his beloved WCW out of business that he showed up 15 years later to get his revenge.

 

That dude is patient.

 

Does anyone in the current audience give one **** about this?

Edited February 24, 2015 by Lombardi's_kid_brother

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

That would be awesome if it happened KDawg.  Which is why it probably wont

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

How about this: long term booking:

Sting isn't here for himself. H is going on his own narrative. He thinks it's about WWE vs. WCW, but it's not. Sting is a hired vigilante mercenary by Vince McMahon.

Sting's victory at Mania is used as a jump off point to remove H and Steph from power and give full reigns back to Vince.

This tips off a "Vince's guys vs. H's guys" battle. H gets guys like Bryan to represent his vision of what the future of WWE is. Vince gets the Cenas of the world.

It's not about heels or faces, it's about philosophy of wrestling and the future. Some of the top end NXT guys (Balor, Zayn, Owens, Neville, Itami) join the battle on H's side.

Problem is, they've tried versions of this story and failed. But at least there would be a grand plan.

 

The grand plan would McMahon versus McMahon part 78.

 

Here's my long-term booking. Everyone in the WWE wants titles and money that comes from winning titles and fight accordingly. HHH shows up once a year to oversee a contract singing before Wrestlemania.

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

The WWE's take on wrestling history is always fascinating to me.

 

DX was maybe the 4th most important element of what got WWE hot again in the Attitude Era....and HHH was the 4th most important part of DX. (I'm telling you - Chyna was more over than HHH for YEARS!!)

 

And let me get this straight: Sting was so mad at WWE for putting his beloved WCW out of business that he showed up 15 years later to get his revenge.

 

That dude is patient.

 

Does anyone in the current audience give one **** about this?

I know man.  That was my interpretation of how they are taking it.  Maybe it was just filler talk by JBL/Cole.  I'll go back and listen to it again.