iheartskins Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 To the original post in the thread, when I see the flag, I think of the theme from Deliverance. And trailer parks in Western Maryland, and to a lesser degree international banks, with branch offices in NOVA celebrating MLK day as Stonewall Jackson day with no mention of MLK. It may mean heritage for some, but it means hatred for many others. I have to side 100% on the side of Henry in this debate. Notwithstanding the state's rights issues, the overwelming cause of the Civil War was slavery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 right. we are slow. but you said that had the south won, it wouldn't have gone on much longer. see where i'm going? Did you ever have your parents tell you to do something, and it was the right thing to do, but you didn't want to do it mainly because they said so and had they left you alone, you probably would have come to that conclusion on your own? That's my opinion. The way many of you have posted indicates that you think the southerners were a bunch of inhuman inbreds that just wanted to do evil deeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 I understand that the Southern Declaration isn't someone's interpretation. I get that.My point has been fromt the start that, yes, slavery was the surface issue, but it was much deeper than that. What were the southern states supposed to say? "We are forming our own country because the north has more votes than us." or "We are forming our own country because the north is trying to be the boss of us.." Slavery was an easy label. I don't think you do get that Code, because you keep trying to re-interpret what was said. Surface issue? Are you seriously telling me "Well, they SAID slavery but they didn't really MEAN it." That's some intense rationalization going on there. But you cannot tell me that 300K plus southerners died just so 5% could own slaves. That is my point. I'm not telling you what those men died for. They're telling you. The leaders of the South, the guys who the 95% elected to lead and represent them, gave the reasons for secession. They chose to stand and be counted with men who wrote those documents. Or are we now not holding citizens of a democratic republic responsible for the actions of their leaders? If the citizenry of the South collectively had other personal issues that they felt were more important, they should have damn well demanded they be listed, or they should have refused to fight for what WAS listed. Since they did not, the cause they fought for, detailed for posterity for all of us to read, was the preservation of slavery through sectional independence. That is the banner under which the citizens of the Confederacy fought. The banner which we are now discussing in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 I'm not telling you what those men died for. They're telling you. The leaders of the South, the guys who the 95% elected to lead and represent them, gave the reasons for secession. They chose to stand and be counted with men who wrote those documents. Or are we now not holding citizens of a democratic republic responsible for the actions of their leaders? You lost me here Henry. So George Bush represents everything you stand for? (or your governer? or local politicians?) You can't honestly tell me that you believe that the average joe read the declaration and had a say... come on Henry.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iheartskins Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 The way many of you have posted indicates that you think the southerners were a bunch of inhuman inbreds that just wanted to do evil deeds. Code, I certainly don't feel that way at all. However, I'm also willing to acknowledge that the prevailing attitude in the South (and in the North and the rest of the United States) in the era that the Confederate Flag originally flew was fundamentally rascist. There are examples of this from literature, politics, social history, cultural history, etc. I don't think there is any denying that the the US was, at the time of the Civil War, a very rascist place--though I don't think that necessarily means that every person who was rascist was evil (or, on the other side, that those who were not rascist were necessarily not evil). How this gets back to the flag, is that for many, the Confederate Flag represents that period of history and the cultural beliefs that many held at that time, including the prevailing rascism. Given that it was the rallying flag for a group of states that wanted to keep slavery, which is an explicitly evil practice, it makes it hard for many to separate that element from some of the other things that the South might have represented (or came to represent). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 That's my opinion. The way many of you have posted indicates that you think the southerners were a bunch of inhuman inbreds that just wanted to do evil deeds. And I think that is EXACTLY the reason for the attempt at revisionist history by most in the south. An attempt to gain favorability in the eyes of the nation. But it is not right. It is o.k. to admit that your ancestors had their heads completely up their own asses. It doesn't reflect on you (meaning the south). Hell, we all have dirtbag ancestors somewhere in our bloodlines. I know I've got plenty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scskin Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 Did you ever have your parents tell you to do something, and it was the right thing to do, but you didn't want to do it mainly because they said so and had they left you alone, you probably would have come to that conclusion on your own?That's my opinion. The way many of you have posted indicates that you think the southerners were a bunch of inhuman inbreds that just wanted to do evil deeds. That defensiveness is what has continued to keep the division between the races. Many people would use the same inhuman inbred comment about blacks, and the way they were bred, stands to reason( not really). The effects of slavery are still psychologically internalized by many blacks. That same superiority complex reigns supreme here in the south. I see the lawn jockeys in front yards, restaurants named Mammy's kitchen and TarBaby's. I experienced a co-worker saying about a friend of mine " She's pretty FOR a black girl ". The attitude is no longer overt, and economics and education are good equalizers. We can agree to disagree without becoming disagreeable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 You lost me here Henry. So George Bush represents everything you stand for? (or your governer? or local politicians?)You can't honestly tell me that you believe that the average joe read the declaration and had a say... come on Henry.... Code, if after Bush picks a fight with Iraq I immediately enlist in the Army, I think it's safe to say that yeah, I support his policy. Even if he doesn't 'represent everything I stand for', he at the very least has my endorsement through my action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcl05 Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 That's my opinion. The way many of you have posted indicates that you think the southerners were a bunch of inhuman inbreds that just wanted to do evil deeds. Not every individual was inherently evil. Just like not every German in the 1930's was inherently evil. However, both cultures, both groups, had a deeply evil institution at the very core of their society. To celebrate those groups and those societies is wrong. To deny or to minimize those evils is wrong, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 Code, if after Bush picks a fight with Iraq I immediately enlist in the Army, I think it's safe to say that yeah, I support his policy. Even if he doesn't 'represent everything I stand for', he at the very least has my endorsement through my action. You know everyone didn't enlist in the army right away, besides, much of that is apples and oranges. The south for the most part (I know they attacked Ft Sumter) was defensive in the beginning. I'm dead against the war in Iraq, however, If Iraq invaded the US, I'd be signing up in a heartbeat. I know from my great great uncles personal journals that my grandmother has, he was a Virginian and felt that he was protecting his land from the agressions of the North, again, he didn't own slaves. Regardless, we'll never see eye to eye on this. I understand that the confederate flag automatically means negative things to some people, and again, that's why I don't have one on my car or home, but if I did choose to put one up, it would have ZERO to do with slavery, skin color or anything like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niyahisacutie Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 When I see the confederate flag, I think struggle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooka Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmchairRedskin Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 To say that the civil war was just about slavery is dumb. But to suggest that displaying the flag now, in 2006, doesn't evoke slavery - is just as dumb. Waving the confederate flag in the south is like waving a swastika in Germany. Both are symbols of the systematic dehumanization and destruction of a race of people. That's how I feel about it. It seems like a big "eff you" to anybody that had relatives enslaved at any point. It's not really that common to see one around here, but then again I live next to Fort Hood, so there's a lot of diversity in the area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 I understand that the confederate flag automatically means negative things to some people, and again, that's why I don't have one on my car or home, but if I did choose to put one up, it would have ZERO to do with slavery, skin color or anything like that. I believe that may be true for you, but it is not true for everyone. More importantly, we all should be aware of how our actions will be interpreted by other people, not just rest easy and secure in what we personally intend to say by our actions. Because of all the history, the confederate flag cannot fully be separated from its connotations, even if we personally do not subscribe to those connotations. Many of those connotations are negative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkleMotion Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause. - Lincoln I don't understand where this overwhelming sanctity of the Union comes from. Tell me why it was so important to go to war for this ideal. Each state voluntarily entered the union and should have had the choice to voluntarily leave it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cdowwe Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 When people think of Civil War the confederate flag jumps in their head. There are many symbols of the war in this area and all over. example battle fields, plantation homes etc. You also have reenactments all over the place. Why does everyone just come down on the flag? I have never understood that. When I see the flag, I think of the Civil War. Why...because they carried it into battle. Its all over the movies and pictures. I think of the Civil War when I see the flag, I dont think of the flag first when I see the Civil War though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Punani2 Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 I think of the bumper sticker "YOU LOST! GET OVER IT!" I've seen a car with that sticker on it. It also had it's windows bashed in and someone keyed the crap out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateCitySkin Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Daisy Duke Me too... Me tooooo. :drool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 I've seen a car with that sticker on it. It also had it's windows bashed in and someone keyed the crap out of it.It seems they have not gotten over it :laugh: :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeanCollins Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 When I was a teenager in No. Va. the regel flag was popular, along with southern rock bands etc...It represented rebellion and teenage angst. That's mostly what it meant to me at that time. And I'll admit that the late 60's and 70's were a tough time for racial issues with the begining of bussing, and there were hard feelings. I'm glad those days (at school) are over, and glad that I've had enough black friends in the last 30 years to understand how that flag makes them feel. The flag means nothing to me now except that if I see it on someone's truck to steer clear of a possible agressive driver :laugh: . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meetST Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 living in georgia.....everytime i see a redneck with one i think RACIST....and most of the time i'm right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbleDanger Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 One word: Treason Exactly my thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rincewind Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Okay, i just got into this thread and sorry but i'm too lazy to read 12 pages - but does anybody actually support that flag being flown? What i never understood is people who have that flag and the US flag next to each other. Or the people who fly it, yet claim to be patriotic. You are flying the flag of another country (i know it was not there offical flag, but at this point in history it might as well been), and a country thats sole accomplishment in its brief existance was to go to war with the US. I just don't get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsfan1311 Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Lynrd Skynrd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chomerics Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 I, like Predicto, used to have the rebel flag in my house and on my truck when I was a fisherman. I was young, naieve and didn't get the meaning of it at the time, and it wasn't until later that I realized what it conveys to others. I now am repulsed by my own actions, as to me it stands for hatred and bigotry, I didn't get it whan I was younger, but I do now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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