What thoughts go thru your head when you see the Confederate flag?

[scskin]

Admittedly I don't have my history books in front of me, but let me put it to you in this light....

Today we have Democrats and Republicans (left and right). Generally, (please note that word!) the left would have a big government that control many facets of our lives (other than collecting taxes and providing for the common defense), many social programs, "safety nets" and the like....and taxes to support all of these. Generally, the right wants as small a government as possible that stays out of as many facets of our lives as possible. In other words, "this is my land, life, etc., stay out of it, I'll take care of it and no one else".

As I said, this is all generalized but does it sound familiar? I would say since this country was founded, that issues like these have existed under many different names, party affiliations, etc. But it does appear to be a regional thing to me. North vs. South. Just like the Civil War.

Am I happy that things turned out like they did? Yeah....I think this is the greatest country in the history of civilization. But understanding all viewpoints in reference to the Civil War will help us today understand it better. It was a lot deeper than just a flag and slavery.

These current issues that you raise have not caused the Democrats to split from the Republicans and start their own Gov't, nor fire a shot. Civilized men attempt to verbally legislate and when possible agree to disagree. Mess with a man's income stream and watch him explode. Economics played a HUGE role in this war. Now remind me, how did the South make most of its money?

[Destino]

if the civil war was about slavery how is it that african-americans did not become citizens until a long time after the civil war.Lincoln didnt free the slaves,he just told them that if they voted for him he would give them 40 acres and a mule. he just gave them the right to vote so that he wouldnt get impeached.Lincoln had slaves in the white house.thats what most history books wont tell you.just a political agenda.

In order to come to your conclusion one would have to ignore the abolitionist movement and it's role in the build up to the civil war entirely. One would have to ignore the struggle between free and slave states to gain ground in congress. One would have to ignore the reasons the south gave for war.

No one has claimed that the north or Lincoln were modern (by our standards) in their thinking toward blacks of their era. They weren't. That however does not change the fact that slavery played a major role in the civil war. It most certainly did.

[Prosperity]

The act of seccestion was an act of treason. And the fact that it is not portrayed in that light absolutley baffles me

That by itself is not treason, or atleast not immoral, the motive is KEY. Just like one man shooting another isn't neccessarily murder or self defense. If they broke away for any reason other than keeping a population enslaved for economic reasons I would be more inclined to treat the idea with respect.

[Huly]

Didn't I answer that? (though I am from the south, even if the rest of you don't want to claim Northern Virginia. )

Now I know you are delusional! NOVA the South keep dreaming Henry! Remind me to take you home with me sometime and show you the true South and true southern hospitality! You will not find that here! Plus no sweet tea= Not the south! Plus you get weird looks here when you buy collard greens. Whats up with that?

And do not get me started on how you can not find boiled peanuts here!

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I'm not as well-educated on the topic of the Civil War as most of the people who have contributed are. How did the Civil War effect the current economy of the South? That interests me.

And as for my two cents, it seems that if the reasons for the Civil War was as cut and dry as slavery, there would be no debate 150 years later since most everyone with a brain realizes that it was a horrible institution. The fact that there were other factors at play should be enough evidence that there was a rift between the North and South regardless of slavery.

[gchwood]

So every soldier currently in Iraq or Afghanistan was the victim of a terrorist attack?

:doh:

NO but thanks for proving my point! The southern soldiers were for the most part not slave owners, but most did feel "aggression" from the North. THey responded with a fight.

We experienced aggression from the terrorists, thus felt the reason for a fight.

[Destino]

And as for my two cents, it seems that if the reasons for the Civil War was as cut and dry as slavery, there would be no debate 150 years later since most everyone with a brain realizes that it was a horrible institution. The fact that there were other factors at play should be enough evidence that there was a rift between the North and South regardless of slavery.

I think the fact that slavery is so clearly "bad" is the reason we have these discussion. People WANT to be proud of their history. Since this want exists and slavery is not something to be proud of people try to seperate it from the civil war. They try to seperate it from southern history.

But history is what it is. The south fought for slavery and in truth it's racist history doesn't end there but that's another topic.

[Huly]

NO but thanks for proving my point! The southern soldiers were for the most part not slave owners, but most did feel "aggression" from the North. THey responded with a fight.

We experienced aggression from the terrorists, thus felt the reason for a fight.

I do not think it is aggression but more the need to protect your homeland. I love the south. To me it is home and nothing could ever compare!

[SkinInsite]

NO but thanks for proving my point! The southern soldiers were for the most part not slave owners, but most did feel "aggression" from the North. THey responded with a fight.

We experienced aggression from the terrorists, thus felt the reason for a fight.

Funny most terrorists feel the same way.

[Cooked Crack]

I bet you a good number of the people who go around displaying that flag would have a problem if a German went around displaying a Nazi flag. I mean he's just showing love to the people who came before him.

[Huly]

People WANT to be proud of their history. Since this want exists and slavery is not something to be proud of people try to seperate it from the civil war. They try to seperate it from southern history.

But history is what it is. The south fought for slavery and in truth it's racist history doesn't end there but that's another topic.

No one could ever be proud of 100% of your history on a personal level or as a country. The point of history is to learn from mistakes and move on. My family heritage has me being related to Jesse James. I am not proud of what he did but it is my heritage. I can not think of a single country that should be proud of 100% of their history.

[codeorama]

That's a given. I guess I do have to print out this stuff ... again:

South Carolina: "A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery."

Mississippi, the first three sentences:"In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course. Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth."

And Georgia's first two lines: "The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery."

And lastly, Texas. Less specific, but here in paragrph three: "[Texas] was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery-- the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits-- a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time."

Again ... AGAIN Code, these are the actual words of the actual leaders of the secessionists. I don't give a crap that Joe Podunk from South Carolina didn't own a slave when he picked up a rifle. The men he chose to lead him said what they said. Their intentions were abundantly clear. Lincoln didn't write this stuff. He didn't force them to list slavery at the top of their list of grievances. They did that all by themselves.

These words, Code. The ones right above, are the words behind Lee's Army in 1863 when he marched into Pennsylvania and into one of the bloodiest battles in American History. The flag representing that Army does not call up any images of glory or heritage to me.

Again, Slavery WAS the upfront issue, the "rallying cry" if you will...

However:

Even as slave states were added to the Union to balance the number of free ones, the South found that its representatives in the House had been overwhelmed by the North’s explosive growth. More and more emphasis was now placed on maintaining parity in the Senate. Failing this, the paranoid theory went, the South would find itself at the mercy of a government in which it no longer had an effective voice. Never mind that slavery was protected under the constitution, and that it would have been impossible to make amendments to abolish it. Jefferson Davis, at the time a Senator from Mississippi, summed up the sectionalist argument himself. Speaking, in effect, to the people of the North concerning slavery, “It is not humanity that influences you… it is that you may have a majority in the Congress of the United States and convert the Government into an engine of Northern aggrandizement… you want by an unjust system of legislation to promote the industry of the United States at the expense of the people of the South.” There, in plain English, is the shrill, accusatory language of sectionalism.

http://www.swcivilwar.com/cw_causes.html

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Destino,

That's a great point, I hadn't thought about it that way.

I still would be interested to hear what long-term affects the Civil War has had on the Southern economy if anyone is willing to school me!

[Huly]

Destino,

That's a great point, I hadn't thought about it that way.

I still would be interested to hear what long-term affects the Civil War has had on the Southern economy if anyone is willing to school me!

To be honest, where I am from it makes up a huge percentage of the economy. Tourism is the largest industry in Charleston SC. People go to see all of our old plantations, old homes, Ft Sumter, etc

[TD_washingtonredskins]

To be honest, where I am from it makes up a huge percentage of the economy. Tourism is the largest industry in Charleston SC. People go to see all of our old plantations, old homes, Ft Sumter, etc

Interesting. I can imagine, I think that type of stuff is very interesting. BTW, I was in Charleston last year and thought it was beautiful.

I was referring more to how it negatively impacted the South. It might have been SHF, but someone mentioned that the South still had not recovered economically from the decision to declare war on the Union.

[Destino]

No one could ever be proud of 100% of your history on a personal level or as a country. The point of history is to learn from mistakes and move on. My family heritage has me being related to Jesse James. I am not proud of what he did but it is my heritage. I can not think of a single country that should be proud of 100% of their history.

I completely agree Huly! I've fount that reading or learning history, the real stuff not the public school fluff, often is a study in human cruelty. The point is that we can learn alot from it. Admitting the bad stuff does not diminish anyone.

[Henry]

Code, why is it whenever I quote the Southern Declaration of Independence, someone thinks a quote from some random historian is an effective counter? You do realize that Davis was discussing the waning influence of an economy based on slavery as a by-product of the 'legislation to promote the industry,' don't you?

In fact, not a few graphs down on the same site I read:

We see this same State’s Rights argument brought forward again in the 1860’s to justify secession as a solution to what amounts to a sectional inferiority complex. The section I refer to, of course, the deep South as whole. Please note that it feels itself to be a “section”, not because of simple geography, but because its society is based upon slavery. So the problem, once again, came down to that “peculiar institution.”

[zoony]

I still would be interested to hear what long-term affects the Civil War has had on the Southern economy if anyone is willing to school me!

Maybe we could burn the entire northeast to the ground and check back with them in 150 years to see how they are doing... just for comparison.

[codeorama]

Code, why is it whenever I quote the Southern Declaration of Independence, someone thinks a quote from some random historian is an effective counter? You do realize that Davis was discussing the waning inlfuence of an economy based on slavery as a by-product of the 'legislation to promote the industry,' don't you?

In fact, not a few graphs down on the same site I read:

I understand that the Southern Declaration isn't someone's interpretation. I get that.

My point has been fromt the start that, yes, slavery was the surface issue, but it was much deeper than that.

What were the southern states supposed to say? "We are forming our own country because the north has more votes than us." or "We are forming our own country because the north is trying to be the boss of us.."

Slavery was an easy label.

But you cannot tell me that 300K plus southerners died just so 5% could own slaves. That is my point.

[bcl05]

To say that the civil war was just about slavery is dumb.

But to suggest that displaying the flag now, in 2006, doesn't evoke slavery - is just as dumb.

Waving the confederate flag in the south is like waving a swastika in Germany. Both are symbols of the systematic dehumanization and destruction of a race of people.

[Major Harris]

Had the South won, I doubt very seriously that slavery would have continued on much longer.

code, that's some serious speculation there. not saying you're right or wrong, as there is no way to prove it either way, but that's purely speculation on your part.

[codeorama]

code, that's some serious speculation there. not saying you're right or wrong, as there is no way to prove it either way, but that's purely speculation on your part.

Yes, it is speculation, however, I can't imagine human beings to continue on forever thinking that slavery is ok.

Look how long it took before blacks got equal rights. But it did happen. Sometimes, we are slow.

[scskin]

I understand that the Southern Declaration isn't someone's interpretation. I get that.

My point has been fromt the start that, yes, slavery was the surface issue, but it was much deeper than that.

What were the southern states supposed to say? "We are forming our own country because the north has more votes than us." or "We are forming our own country because the north is trying to be the boss of us.."

Slavery was an easy label.

But you cannot tell me that 300K plus southerners died just so 5% could own slaves. That is my point.

That 5% were the ruling elite, and they sold the others ideas that they bought into lock, stock and barrel. They didn't directly benefit from slavery, but indirectly did. States rights( to own slaves ), Economic oppression( slavery=$$$)

Cultural differences? come on!!! I can understand that it makes it sound so simplistic but ideological differences, money and land are what wars are fought over. All three of these can be directly related to the peculiar institution. It makes Southerners sound really bad and simple, but that is not the case in general. Specifically on this issue........

[Major Harris]

I think of the bumper sticker "YOU LOST! GET OVER IT!"

i think of that, too.

i also think of that when i see the kerry/edwards stickers.

[Major Harris]

Yes, it is speculation, however, I can't imagine human beings to continue on forever thinking that slavery is ok.

Look how long it took before blacks got equal rights. But it did happen. Sometimes, we are slow.

right. we are slow. but you said that had the south won, it wouldn't have gone on much longer. see where i'm going?