ZoEd Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 And let me ask you a question - what do apples and oranges have in common? Everybody keeps making the Civil War about slavery and it wasn't. People were standing up for their beliefs, wrong or right. Most of these people came from countries that were ruled by Kings/Queens and have everything forced down their throats. When the Union was formed it was formed with the belief that EVERYONE'S voice would be heard and that a President wouldn't send AMERICA'S troops against it's own people. apples and oranges Peel one and not the other? Slavery was wrong and most definitely should have been abolished. By no means am I implying that it was a states right to own slaves but from everything that I've read diplomacy wasn't give time to work. Most people who parade around with the stars and bars on their pickup trucks are displaying for the wrong reasons but not all of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herrmag Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Think about the name "the Washington Redskins". People that have no history and sentimental value attached to the name find it offensive, yet people on this board (including me) see it as a prideful name. We don't connect "Redskins" with a racial slur, just like many don't connect the Confederate flag with slavery. They see the Confederate flag as a symbol of standing up for sovereignty and, despite what the PC historians tell you, the south was facing financial disaster back then, and their leaders decided to do something about it. Obviously, nobody can defend slavery, and I'd dare anyone to try. But to some, the Confederate flag does not have a direct connection to slavery, regardless of whether or not you do. This post is completely objective. I have no emotions towards the Confederate flag. I've been a NOVA boy all my life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rincewind Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Everybody keeps making the Civil War about slavery and it wasn't. People were standing up for their beliefs, wrong or right. Most of these people came from countries that were ruled by Kings/Queens and have everything forced down their throats. When the Union was formed it was formed with the belief that EVERYONE'S voice would be heard and that a President wouldn't send AMERICA'S troops against it's own people. apples and oranges Peel one and not the other? Slavery was wrong and most definitely should have been abolished. By no means am I implying that it was a states right to own slaves but from everything that I've read diplomacy wasn't give time to work. Most people who parade around with the stars and bars on their pickup trucks are displaying for the wrong reasons but not all of us. I never said the Civil War was about slavery. My point was that you can't compare Lincoln trying to keep the union together to people in Cali. not being happy that their sons and daughters are dying. Also, it bothers me that some one who lives on an AFB would actively support another countries army - especially one who's entire existance was spent in a war with our country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoEd Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 And slavery was not unique to the southern "aristocrats" - northerns and middle to upper-middle class citizens owned them too. Exactly then why is slavery always considered a southern thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 I made my point about that with Redskins logo. Try and explain the difference. Censorship comes from the government. It is still legal to wave the confederate flag, as it is legal to don a Redskins jersey. Pick a new word besides censorship ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkleMotion Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Nobody ever answered my question so I'll repeat it. What makes this idea of "The Union" so sacred? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoEd Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause.- Lincoln I don't understand where this overwhelming sanctity of the Union comes from. Tell me why it was so important to go to war for this ideal. Each state voluntarily entered the union and should have had the choice to voluntarily leave it. :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: Absolutely, positively 100% correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nelms Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Fine, but the problem is 99% of the people who wave that flag are ignorant rednecks who have no idea about the heritage of the south. And you can't tell me that most people don't automatically associate the symbol with bad mojo. Maybe its not fair - but there it is. There is NO need for that symbol to still exist, there are plenty of other was to show your southern pride. Isn't that erasing history because it offends you? And how do you know that 99% of people who wave that flag are ignorant rednecks? Did you take a poll? That is such an ignorant statement. My best friend is in the Sons of the Confederate Veterans and they fly the flag at every meeting. And guess what? There is a black member in his local chapter. And guess what else? There are other black members in other chapters in Virginia. Shocking, isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rincewind Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Exactly then why is slavery always considered a souther thing? Because it was so much more widespread in the South. Plus, the North abolished slavery well before the South. But at the dawn of country's existance New England was the main importer of slaves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoEd Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Think about the name "the Washington Redskins". People that have no history and sentimental value attached to the name find it offensive, yet people on this board (including me) see it as a prideful name. We don't connect "Redskins" with a racial slur, just like many don't connect the Confederate flag with slavery. They see the Confederate flag as a symbol of standing up for sovereignty and, despite what the PC historians tell you, the south was facing financial disaster back then, and their leaders decided to do something about it. Obviously, nobody can defend slavery, and I'd dare anyone to try. But to some, the Confederate flag does not have a direct connection to slavery, regardless of whether or not you do. This post is completely objective. I have no emotions towards the Confederate flag. I've been a NOVA boy all my life. :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: Again another great post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateCitySkin Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Censorship comes from the government. It is still legal to wave the confederate flag, as it is legal to don a Redskins jersey. Pick a new word besides censorship ..... Alright your either just being smart or back tracking. Either way. :slap: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rincewind Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Isn't that erasing history because it offends you? And how do you know that 99% of people who wave that flag are ignorant rednecks? Did you take a poll? That is such an ignorant statement.My best friend is in the Sons of the Confederate Veterans and they fly the flag at every meeting. And guess what? There is a black member in his local chapter. And guess what else? There are other black members in other chapters in Virginia. Shocking, isn't it? Okay, i'll admit - i went overboard with the 99% thing - my fault. But, you guys who are arguing for the flag keeping assuming i feel it is racist and keep bringing up slavery. I only said that it is viewed as being racist by most people - not me, i even said that its unfair it is viewed this way. My problem with it is that it is the flag of country who existed over 150 years ago and for that entire time was at war with my country. Call me patriotic, but why should i have any love for that country? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Its a heritige of treason and oppression Once again, for those denying that the Civil War had to do with slavery go back to page 7 of this thread and read Henry's posts It is pretty damn clear that the southern states were talking about the institution of slavery. That is why they were demanding "states rights" Don't bash my post till you go back and read Henry's posts a few pages back, because it is in black and white. The south wanted "states rights" to maintain the institution of slavery. And in order to maintain that unjust and dispicable institution, its leaders committed acts of treason and should have been shot at the conclusion of the war As for the sacred idea of a Union, its pretty simple, the blood of a few generations earlier was spilled over securing a union where the rights of all people were respected. If America were to have divided it would have opened back up the British and French adventures into America, and you'd be a subject of one of those empires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 That's a given. I guess I do have to print out this stuff ... again:South Carolina: "A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery." Mississippi, the first three sentences:"In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course. Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth." And Georgia's first two lines: "The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery." And lastly, Texas. Less specific, but here in paragrph three: "[Texas] was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery-- the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits-- a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time." Again ... AGAIN Code, these are the actual words of the actual leaders of the secessionists. I don't give a crap that Joe Podunk from South Carolina didn't own a slave when he picked up a rifle. The men he chose to lead him said what they said. Their intentions were abundantly clear. Lincoln didn't write this stuff. He didn't force them to list slavery at the top of their list of grievances. They did that all by themselves. These words, Code. The ones right above, are the words behind Lee's Army in 1863 when he marched into Pennsylvania and into one of the bloodiest battles in American History. The flag representing that Army does not call up any images of glory or heritage to me. Just for you silly people who think the war was NOT about slavery, but was the "war of Northern Aggression" Give me a damn break, its up there in black and white Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoEd Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 I never said the Civil War was about slavery. My point was that you can't compare Lincoln trying to keep the union together to people in Cali. not being happy that their sons and daughters are dying. Also, it bothers me that some one who lives on an AFB would actively support another countries army - especially one who's entire existance was spent in a war with our country. Another country? They were all americans in a different time and age then we live in today. Some of the decisions that our Gov't makes at times makes me want to leave the union sometimes as well, you can't say the same? I'm as patriotic as anyone and love this country so please don't try to imply that I feel any other way. I made my early post based on posts I read of people connecting slavery to the Rebel flag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Another country? They were all americans in a different time and age then we live in today. Some of the decisions that our Gov't makes at times makes me want to leave the union sometimes as well, you can't say the same? I'm as patriotic as anyone and love this country so please don't try to imply that I feel any other way. I made my early post based on posts I read of people connecting slavery to the Rebel flag. The thing is, no matter how revisionists today spin it, the rebellion WAS about slavery. The rebellion WAS about forming another nation, independent of the United States of America, which was formed by the blood of their grandfathers We sit here and we can talk about states rights, and Lincoln moving troops, yada yada, the point is NONE of that happens unless your fellow man is in bondage The leaders of the rebellion said it themselves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rincewind Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Another country? They were all americans in a different time and age then we live in today. Some of the decisions that our Gov't makes at times makes me want to leave the union sometimes as well, you can't say the same? I'm as patriotic as anyone and love this country so please don't try to imply that I feel any other way. I made my early post based on posts I read of people connecting slavery to the Rebel flag. What in the wide, wide world of sports are you talking about? At the time of the civil war - in their own eyes - the southerns were no longer citizens of the USA. Therefore, that flag is from another country. Britian was VERY close to recognizing the South (which if the south had won Gettysburg the British would have recognized them). So in my eyes if you fly that flying... well i'm sure you know where i'm going. Also, no i never want to leave this country - i love it with all of my heart. And - thank you and all that you do for this country (i assume you are in the Air Force). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmic Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 KKK and racist white men and clayton bigsby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duncan Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Fine, but the problem is 99% of the people who wave that flag are ignorant rednecks who have no idea about the heritage of the south. And you can't tell me that most people don't automatically associate the symbol with bad mojo. Maybe its not fair - but there it is. There is NO need for that symbol to still exist, there are plenty of other was to show your southern pride. And slavery was not unique to the southern "aristocrats" - northerns and middle to upper-middle class citizens owned them too. I'm from MD but have lived in the South for 17 years. My wife's great great grandfather was an officer in the Confederate Army and she is a member of the United Daughters of the Confederacy. She was given a Confederate flag that was flown in battle and it's part of her family history. The woman has an MBA and a law degree and donates a lot of time doing pro-bono work for the underprivileged in Atlanta, but I guess she is just an "ignorant redneck". I spend a lot of time in the Northeast on business and can honestly say I encounter much more white racism there than in the South. Don't even get me started on the black racism I encounter being a minority in my city. There good and bad people in every race, you just need to associate with the good ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prophet Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 The racist South. I think this is debatable. I have recently been relocated to nowheresville, Mississippi. working on a project for new armor for military vehicles, and 70% of this mississippi town is black, about about half of them wear redneck hunting gear, hats with the confedret flag on it, and drive old beat up redneck pickup trucks.... I'm not sure what to make of it yet. But these are some of the nicest people i've ever met in my life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rincewind Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 I'm from MD but have lived in the South for 17 years. My wife's great great grandfather was an officer in the Confederate Army and she is a member of the United Daughters of the Confederacy. She was given a Confederate flag that was flown in battle and it's part of her family history. The woman has an MBA and a law degree and donates a lot of time doing pro-bono work for the underprivileged in Atlanta, but I guess she is just an "ignorant redneck". I spend a lot of time in the Northeast on business and can honestly say I encounter much more white racism there than in the South. Don't even get me started on the black racism I encounter being a minority in my city. There good and bad people in every race, you just need to associate with the good ones. Duncan, please read my last post - i apologized for the '99% redneck' comment and tried to explain that i personally don't necessarily see the flag as a racist symbol. For what its worth - i think its incredibly cool you have a flag that was flown in the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prophet Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 :2cents: dallas stinks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoEd Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Just for you silly people who think the war was NOT about slavery, but was the "war of Northern Aggression"Give me a damn break, its up there in black and white Okay Hokie, this one if funny. I guess I couldn't possibly go through documents of great leaders of our time and take snippets from things they've said and written to paint a picture that best suits my position. Please. The biggest reason the Southern states were reluctant to abolish slavery was because the Northern states were making a living from factories and industrialism and the souths only means of making a living was through agriculture which in their minds required them to have slaves, again right or wrong at the time that's what they thought. Most people in the south thought the northerners were a bunch of uppity rich people who knew nothing about a hard days work and looked down at them for living the way they did (not talking about owning slaves either). They felt the "MAN" was keeping them down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 I spend a lot of time in the Northeast on business and can honestly say I encounter much more white racism there than in the South. . me too. The most vile, bigoted, disgusting racist ****s I have ever encountered all were in the northeast. And just about every time I go up there I come home with another story. The most recent? I was in downtown Philly where I asked someone a question about where to buy tickets, and I was told the answer. I said 'Thanks'. To which he replies, "No problem, you're the right color" WHAT? I was in shock. Actually, no I wasn't... I remembered I was in Philly. Trust me, I could go on and on. I don't encounter any of that in TN... I really don't. Nor do I encounter it anywhere that I travel in the Southeast. Sure it's there (racism is everywhere) but NOWHERE near what it is in the northeast. :2cents: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 The biggest reason the Southern states were reluctant to abolish slavery was because the Northern states were making a living from factories and industrialism and the souths only means of making a living was through agriculture which in their minds required them to have slaves, again right or wrong at the time that's what they thought. Most people in the south thought the northerners were a bunch of uppity rich people who knew nothing about a hard days work and looked down at them for living the way they did (not talking about owning slaves either). They felt the "MAN" was keeping them down. Yet you are still making the point it was about slavery I understand, the thinking was different at the time, and not all people were treated equally. I get all of that, I understand the point It still does not change these 2 fundamental facts 1) The issue of "States Rights" was about being able to maintain the instiution of slavery and 2) The southern leaders rebelled and split from the Union and commited an act of treason in order to maintain an institution which oppressed your fellow man I cannot see any other way to spin the actions of the south, and God bless them for believing in a cause so strongly they were willing to die for it, but it was the wrong cause Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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