The Bruce Allen/GM Thread

[Paul Cumberland]

17 minutes ago, CaptainChaos47 said:

I'm not sure how you read that article and takeaway Bruce acted on his own.  It sounds to me like all the personnel folks told Bruce who they liked best then before the deal was done he reconfirmed with Jay.. Hey this is our guy right? Then he told Doug don't check your phone because legally this deal can't be made for another month and a half so I don't want you to confirm anything and get in trouble with the league..i mean am I missing something?? 

 

You very well could be right.  But the way the tweet (didn't read the full article) said, "How do you like him?", that, to me, means he's getting an initial question, not a confirmation from a previous conversation.  And as for Bruce possibly wanting Doug to not spill the beans, not sure why it would have to be handled the way it did where he didn't find out till the next day.  Seems a bit disrespectful to the SVP of Player Personnel, IMO.

 

In any event, if they didn't really want the deal leaked till the new league year, they couldn't have done a worse job at it.. lol

[CaptainChaos47]

1 minute ago, Paul Cumberland said:

 

You very well could be right.  But the way the tweet (didn't read the full article) said, "How do you like him?", that, to me, means he's getting an initial question, not a confirmation from a previous conversation.  And as for Bruce possibly wanting Doug to not spill the beans, not sure why it would have to be handled the way it did where he didn't find out till the next day.  Seems a bit disrespectful to the SVP of Player Personnel, IMO.

 

In any event, if they didn't really want the deal leaked till the new league year, they couldn't have done a worse job at it.. lol

Read the article.. It spells out they all knew.  In my opinion Allen was texting Doug to say I know you know he (Smith) was in play don't say anything.  As far as secrets go the weekend before free agency my mom told me so Cousins is going to the Vikings and go figure legal tampering window hits and the contract leaks..there are leaks everywhere but if your SVP confirms interest it could be an issue.  I just don't take the article to mean what most here are saying that Allen acted alone..doesnt read that way to me..they had a plan they told him who they wanted and he made the deal.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Why would Doug be wondering all night what was going on, if he knew this was in play already?

[Peregrine]

Seriously, are some of these Bruce lovers still giving excuses like "Oh, it looks like, if you look at it really closely, and move some words around, that maybe they all knew".

 

Heres the thing.  1. Bruce said in the offseason they would be group decisions, he specifically avoided saying he would make decisions in order to get people to think he wouldnt. 2. Doug Williams is our VP of professional personnel.  3. Doug Williams does NOT have a side job taking his time up.  He is not working at Chili's right now, something that keeps him from being involved in something like this.

 

Doug Williams in that article de facto said he did not know that they had traded for Smith, nor did he have any idea what was up.  It DOES NOT MATTER IF THEY DISCUSSED IT PRIOR, why was Williams not involved that night?  Doug Williams has NOTHING else to do but deal with personnel, its his ONLY job.  What else is he doing???  So what POSSIBLE reason do you have to not have him involved in the BIGGEST personnel decision of the entire season.  In fact, if there was only ONE decision he should have been involved in for every minute, it is this one.  That is, IF we were told the truth about his position, which we were not.  I mean come on people, stop with the pathetic excuses, this was the one time all season Doug Williams, who is paid a lot of money to allegedly ONLY deal with personnel decisions like this one, should have been heavily involved in it, and for it to all go down without him knowing about it, even if they discussed it prior is so telling.  Its his ONLY job.  Its not like he was too busy with his other job and Bruce was just like "Well, lets not overwork him, better tell him later". 

 

What possible other thing could Doug Williams have had to do that night than be involved in this trade decision until completion?  Answer: Nothing.  He just never was supposed to be involved in any important player personnel decisions.

[Skinsinparadise]

9 hours ago, CaptainChaos47 said:

I'm not sure how you read that article and takeaway Bruce acted on his own.  It sounds to me like all the personnel folks told Bruce who they liked best then before the deal was done he reconfirmed with Jay.. Hey this is our guy right? Then he told Doug don't check your phone because legally this deal can't be made for another month and a half so I don't want you to confirm anything and get in trouble with the league..i mean am I missing something?? 

 

Nothing surprised me reading the article except for slipping the trade to Jay at the last minute in the throes of making the deal -- hey you like this guy -- while they were deep in discussions for the trade

 

It's not a stretch to me that Jay might have said to Bruce in the past that he likes Alex -- though the article doesn't suggest that he did, unless I missed something, I have to read it again. But even if it was just the mere compensation element of it IMO shouldn't be a surprise where its hey guess what, you don't have Kendall Fuller and your third rounder anymore, but we got our man.   Ditto the apples to apples comparison for Alex versus what's out there as an alternative. 

 

If you recall it dovetails some with the narrative that Shanny didn't want McNabb but they sprung it on him.  He preferred Bulger.  In this case it appears that Jay liked (or so he expressed Alex Smith) but it does seem like they might have sprung it on him too -- at the every least as to the compensation involved.

[Wildbunny]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

It's not a stretch to me that Jay might have said to Bruce in the past that he likes Alex -- though the article doesn't suggest that he did, unless I missed something, I have to read it again.

No it doesn't suggest that he was asked about Alex earlier.

But it's interesting to note that they started working on getting someone else than Kirk right after the end of the season. Like they knew they wouldn't be able to sign Kirk, and didn't even bothered to try it.

 

Now, I've also found it interesting to have the other side of the ball with Mike McCartney's and Kirk point of view of this situation with this article from John Keim:

This pretty much sums up that after last year, Kirk wasn't sure about what to do, because of McVay's leaving, Pierre and DJax also.

 

Looks like at the end of this season, both sides knew that this was done and decided to move on from Day 1 after the end of regular season.

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

This pretty much sums up that after last year, Kirk wasn't sure about what to do, because of McVay's leaving, Pierre and DJax also.

 

Looks like at the end of this season, both sides knew that this was done and decided to move on from Day 1 after the end of regular season.

 

Based on narratives beat guys have said close to the action, it wasn't that cut and dry but those were key highlights.  If it was that cut and dry it makes them not trading Kirk look even more egregious.

 

My theory based on a number of narratives including Kirk and McCartney.  I listened to McCartney yesterday, too.

 

A. Bad start to the negotiations in January

B. McVay leaving

C.  Questions about Bruce's character and FO dysfunction brought home by how Scot was canned

D. Bruce saw the tag as a placeholder -- the dollar figure of the tag not being relevant.  The agent saw it differently

 

There seem to be more to it than that but those seem to be by far the key drivers if the people covering the story are correct.  And Kirk in his own polite way confirmed some if it.   That's a combination of Paulsen, Russell, Jones, Keim's narratives.

 

The one thing that makes it confusing in retrospect is Scot (not Bruce) wanting to trade Kirk in 2017.  Jay's opinion on working it out might have changed in 2018 from 2017 -- in 2017 most of the behind the scenes narrative was Jay was pushing it hard to get it done.  In 2018, it seemed like Jay was fed up with the uncertainty.  And at that point, Kirk was too close to FA to not want to test it.  So I buy the narrative that they might not have been able to get it done this year. 

 

Lets play out Kirk hitting the market with the idea that maybe he'd come back.  Bruce offered 22 million, with about ballpark 60% of the offer being fully guaranteed.  The Vikings (better team and arguably better organization) offers 28 million and 100% guaranteed.  Kirk would have been a goner for sure.   No brainer Kirk wouldn't have been back if he hit the open market.

 

[CaptainChaos47]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Nothing surprised me reading the article except for slipping the trade to Jay at the last minute in the throes of making the deal -- hey you like this guy -- while they were deep in discussions for the trade

 

It's not a stretch to me that Jay might have said to Bruce in the past that he likes Alex -- though the article doesn't suggest that he did, unless I missed something, I have to read it again. But even if it was just the mere compensation element of it IMO shouldn't be a surprise where its hey guess what, you don't have Kendall Fuller and your third rounder anymore, but we got our man.   Ditto the apples to apples comparison for Alex versus what's out there as an alternative. 

 

If you recall it dovetails some with the narrative that Shanny didn't want McNabb but they sprung it on him.  He preferred Bulger.  In this case it appears that Jay liked (or so he expressed Alex Smith) but it does seem like they might have sprung it on him too -- at the every least as to the compensation involved.

Jay has stated they had plan a b c d.. Alex was a or b..  He knew.. Jay is quoted as saying as much..the whole crew had Alex as number one option and it happened.. Maybe he didn't know the compensation but your backs against the wall you do what's needed to make the deal.  Losing fuller sucks I get that but colt as the starter is much worse in my opinion.

[KDawg]

16 hours ago, TK said:

@KDawg This made me want Thai food.  

 

 

me too! Haha that night was a trip.

[SkinsFTW]

11 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Why would Doug be wondering all night what was going on, if he knew this was in play already?

 

 

Really bro?

 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, CaptainChaos47 said:

Maybe he didn't know the compensation but your backs against the wall you do what's needed to make the deal. 

 

I don't feel like belaboring the point but the "you do what you got to do to make the deal" to me is very Danny style Redskins.  It hasn't been a winning strategy.  Many examples of it that have been mentioned repeatedly on this thread.  And the narrative of well that's in the past -- this deal is different -- that's also the mantra each time it happens.  It's always fresh and new when it happens -- there is always context to every deal.  I backed many of them in the moment.  I recall the narrative of each one of them well.

 

But bringing it back to a point relating to this thread.  It shows at the very least Bruce has some real power in the FO.  He's not just a dude that signs off on other people's decisions. 

[skinsfan66]

Now that the dust has settled we have a QB for 4 years.  Plan A or B could have been worse.

Signing a QB in the draft and developing them should now be a top need every year or two because when they hit the open market you are going to pay or lose. NO franchise tag is going to help its to high now.  Kirk and his agent along with Allen for driving up QB salaries.

   

[BurgundyBooger]

12 hours ago, Peregrine said:

 

What possible other thing could Doug Williams have had to do that night than be involved in this trade decision until completion?  Answer: Nothing.  He just never was supposed to be involved in any important player personnel decisions.

 

Doug has always been a smokescreen hire. The guy was sitting on the couch before his buddy Bruce called and gave him a job here, and people thought Bruce was just going to hand him over the keys or have the brother ride shotgun? Doug deserves better than this circus and should go elsewhere, but if he's okay with all of this and is just here for the paycheck, then his ass needs to be canned too alongside Bruce and every other con man/crook complicit in this ****show.

[CaptainChaos47]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I don't feel like belaboring the point but the "you do what you got to do to make the deal" to me is very Danny style Redskins.  It hasn't been a winning strategy.  Many examples of it that have been mentioned repeatedly on this thread.  And the narrative of well that's in the past -- this deal is different -- that's also the mantra each time it happens.  It's always fresh and new when it happens -- there is always context to every deal.  I backed many of them in the moment.  I recall the narrative of each one of them well.

 

But bringing it back to a point relating to this thread.  It shows at the very least Bruce has some real power in the FO.  He's not just a dude that signs off on other people's decisions. 

Of course he does lol he's in the front office. The bottom line is they all spoke about it and it happened. 

[Skinsinparadise]

wrong thread

[Skinsinparadise]

51 minutes ago, CaptainChaos47 said:

Of course he does lol he's in the front office. The bottom line is they all spoke about it and it happened. 

 

Naturally.  But I made this point not because I personally was surprised about any of it.  I made it because some argue that people overplay Bruce's power and they suggest he just oversees things.  Thereby, we should be more attuned to the people below him who are the real movers and shakers.  So my point was in response to that general point.

 

I personally have stated plenty that the guy who is in charge who in this case is Bruce is naturally the most powerful person in the FO.   

[JSSkinz]

I don't get the hysteria from that article, the personnel department ranked the FA and rookie QB's and then that data is handed to Bruce.

 

Once the personnel department does their job then it comes down to who you want to pursue and Bruce got the "Amen" from Jay on going after Alex and obviously, Eric S. had to be onboard as well.

 

So personal did their job and passed on the data, Bruce found an opportunity and made sure our coach felt the player was compatible with our team before making the move and then Bruce and Eric take over and make the deal.

 

I don't see an issue with that process and I don't see this as a decision Bruce made because he got up one day and said "I think I'll sign Alex Smith today".

Nobody has 4 or 5 final decision makers, you use data from scouting and the feedback from coaching to make a decision, I think we did that here, based on that article.

 

[Wildbunny]

It seems you misread it a little bit. There's nothing in it saying they valued Rookie QB at any point, they focused on FA QBs, and add Smith to the list due to his situation.

 

Problem I do have in the process is that the "Amen" from Jay comes really late in the process as they seem to be well engaged in the negotiations. He doesn't even have seem to have a say on Fuller being part of it. Which is a problem in itself.

 

Then, Doug Williams, the Senior VP of Personnel doesn't seem to take part of this process, which is also a problem. His title itself should have him engaged in the process. He's just informed that it's been done. Don't you find it weird?

 

I have a hard time thinking that both the VP of Personnel and the HC being so little engaged in any stuff like that. That article just portrays that Bruce do night and day at Redskins Park, and others are only allowed to say "Yes". The Shanahan story would probably teach you that even if Jay said he didn't like Smith for X or Y reasons, the trade would still had happen. But since Jay is your casual employee of the month, he's not gonna go against it. He'll do with it, because that's a business and he knows it. That doesn't necessarily implies he agrees with everything that Bruce does.

[JSSkinz]

1 hour ago, Wildbunny said:

There's nothing in it saying they valued Rookie QB at any point

So you don't think they ranked the rookie QB's before they decided to go FA?

 

I know the article doesn't spell out everything 100% for us but why would you do one and not the other?  I think you're being naive if you think they didn't look at every QB opportunity both draft and free agency.

 

1 hour ago, Wildbunny said:

Problem I do have in the process is that the "Amen" from Jay comes really late in the process as they seem to be well engaged in the negotiations.

It doesn't matter, it's not Jay's job to scout talent and make picks for this team and history tells us that NFL head coaches don't make good personnel decisions, he should be involved to an extent but if Bruce calls him before they seal the deal with Alex then obviously he respects Jay's opinion on the matter or he would have just done the deal without calling Jay.

 

1 hour ago, Wildbunny said:

Then, Doug Williams, the Senior VP of Personnel doesn't seem to take part of this process, which is also a problem. His title itself should have him engaged in the process. He's just informed that it's been done. Don't you find it weird?

Only if there wasn't a consensus that Alex was the top priority, if that was already set by the personnel department(Doug is the head of this department) then at that point it's up to the closers and Doug is not a closer.

 

1 hour ago, Wildbunny said:

The Shanahan story would probably teach you that even if Jay said he didn't like Smith for X or Y reasons, the trade would still had happen.

I don't look at Jay as a feeble yes man, Jay has options and people around the league know he's a good offensive mind.  With his contacts and experience, I don't believe he would stay here if he thought the team was signing players without making sure they fit Jay's system. 
 

 

If you want to get mad at something be mad that Bruce and Eric S are cheap ****s that said they would be aggressive in free agency and they were the exact opposite.

 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

On 3/16/2018 at 1:56 PM, Peregrine said:

Wow, yeah, so that very revealing article just revealed our worst fears, but what many of us knew to be true: The Redskins and Bruce Allen lied to us again, and Bruce Allen is the GM, not Doug Williams.

 

Bruce Allen made the trade and then told Williams not to check his phone and see him in the morning, where Williams was then told what "they" had done.  Williams had no idea.  OUR "GM" HAD NO IDEA what had happened and if we had traded for someone!

 

 

Seriously?

 

"Bruce Allen made the trade and then told Williams not to check his phone"

 

No, he told him not to answer his phone. Sounds like he knew leak were inevitable and didn't want Williams (or anyone) saying anything or responding to anyone until they met up the next morning.

 

"Bruce Allen is the GM, not Doug Williams."

 

Neither man ever said Williams was the GM. Here's the title of a WP article right after Williams was promoted:  "Redskins won’t name new GM, as former QB Doug Williams ascends to Senior VP of Player Personnel." And here's a quote from that article;

 

Allen further explained, “[Williams’s] job is daily communication and leadership of the personnel department. It’s daily communication and leadership of our coaches and players."

 

And a quote from an SI article right after Williams was promoted:

 

"Which means the real winner might be club president Bruce Allen, because it’s likely he’ll continue to have final say on personnel matters—only with stronger input from Williams....Williams, as good a soldier as the franchise has ever employed, will lord over a reshuffled personnel staff, with Allen likely to retain the power in the organization."

 

“When I interviewed for the job,” Williams said from Virginia, after being named Washington’s senior vice president of player personnel, “I didn’t put ‘GM’ on my proposal. When we did the draft board this year, we met for two-and-a-half weeks, and we had a good discussion and put it together as a team. We did it without a GM. So I thought, ‘Do we really need a GM?’ A GM oversees everything. But I looked at our team—I don’t want to be in charge of the coaches. That’s [coach] Jay Gruden’s job.”

 

Just reminding everyone that nobody at the time or since claimed Williams was the GM, other than fans on this site.

 

 

"OUR "GM" HAD NO IDEA what had happened and if we had traded for someone!"

 

Whether or not Williams knew the trade was about to happen or did happen is irrelevant. What's more important is whether or not Williams knew the Skins would try and go after Smith to begin with. Nothing in the article makes any claim that he didn't know. Quite the opposite, in fact. There's a lot in the article that points to there being many convos about Smith between different men and groups within the Park, with Smith always being the #1 option at QB. The only thing from that article that seems to have been kept from anyone was the convo between Allen an Reid as it was happening. And from numerous articles and reports from different beat writers, Allen is notorious for wanting to keep all info in-house at all times...I think he even has it written into contracts that leaking info is a fireable offense.

 

As for thinking Gruden wasn't asked his opinion about Smith until Allen was minutes away from trading for him lol...come on, now, guys. Just think for a second: if Bruce Allen didn't give a rat's ass about what Gruden thought about Smith during the weeks before that night he started to trade for him, why the hell would he bother asking Gruden what his thoughts were literally minutes before the trade was happening? To cover his ass? He would have asked long before that moment if covering his ass was the reason. It comes across far more as if he was double checking.

 

If there's anything bothersome about the article, it's that apparently neither Williams nor Gruden was asked about Fuller being part of the trade. Allen probably would have rationalized it as a judgement call made in the moment because other teams were (as reported) also contacting Reid about getting Smith. And that would make someone as paranoid as Allen even MORE secretive...imagine if it somehow got out that the Skins were throwing in Fuller, and let's say the Browns decided to top it. Allen would be livid. I know the Browns got pissed off when the Skins traded for the #2 pick in 2012 because they felt they weren't given an opportunity to top it...maybe, since Smith is said to have chosen the Redskins as his top choice among the teams interested in him that Reid took the approach towards Allen of 'Give me a better deal than what's been offered and I won't use your offer to get more from your competition" (which was alleged happened between Fisher, Allen an Shanahan at the time). I mean, if Cleveland said they'd offer a #1 and #2 for Smith, Reid wouldn't be blamed for saying "I'm sorry, man, but you're going to the Browns' lol....

 

EDIT: Almost forgot - don't hesitate to claim it's my "faith in Allen" or that I'm a "Bruce lover' that's behind my stance. Always enjoyed that part of ES *thumbsup*

 

[CaptainChaos47]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Naturally.  But I made this point not because I personally was surprised about any of it.  I made it because some argue that people overplay Bruce's power and they suggest he just oversees things.  Thereby, we should be more attuned to the people below him who are the real movers and shakers.  So my point was in response to that general point.

 

I personally have stated plenty that the guy who is in charge who in this case is Bruce is naturally the most powerful person in the FO.   

Regardless the group made the decision.. Gun was ****ed he pulled the trigger.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

2 hours ago, JSSkinz said:

I don't get the hysteria from that article, the personnel department ranked the FA and rookie QB's and then that data is handed to Bruce.

 

Once the personnel department does their job then it comes down to who you want to pursue and Bruce got the "Amen" from Jay on going after Alex and obviously, Eric S. had to be onboard as well.

 

So personal did their job and passed on the data, Bruce found an opportunity and made sure our coach felt the player was compatible with our team before making the move and then Bruce and Eric take over and make the deal.

 

I don't see an issue with that process and I don't see this as a decision Bruce made because he got up one day and said "I think I'll sign Alex Smith today".

Nobody has 4 or 5 final decision makers, you use data from scouting and the feedback from coaching to make a decision, I think we did that here, based on that article.

 

 

If Jay was asked "When was the first time you talked to anyone about Alex Smith?" and he answered “I think it was the day the President addressed the nation, that's when Allen called and said there’s a possibility of getting Smith, and asked me ‘How do you like him?’ ", THEN it would be worrisome. But I don't think anyone should read Gruden's words as a factual timeline of his involvement, as if he's giving a deposition...though many have done just that. It actually only refers to when he found out the trade might about to be going down.

 

 

[RemoveSnyder]

Agnew                                                                                                           Allen 

[CaptainChaos47]

6 hours ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

 

Really bro?

 

If everyone wants to think the front office is crap and everything from here on out is failure then why follow the team? Just say it's a failure and move on.. I've met guys in the stands.. We were down by 20 and all you did was cry.. Then we came back and won and you still weren't happy..  Move on bro we don't need you

[Thinking Skins]