Bill Callahan and the Offensive Line

[RandyHolt]

3 hours ago, TheShredder said:

...Seems prime to start off the game with play action...everybody knows you're going to run, right?

 

Hoping the game plan reveals some this was their intention all along.  But I doubt it. 

I have argued for years that you do not need a first have a successful run game, to make PA work. We opened a game with it last year.  All you have to do is make a D think run, which isn't hard to do since we run ~half the time anyways.

 

Defenses are more aggressive at the snap, than ever in the history of the game. I would bet Jumbo's ES password on it. They are ripe for any deception at all, including PA, on any traditional run down or when showing a typical run formation. 

 

A HUGE part of play action IMHO, is the QBs natural ability to sell it. Some QBs are much better at fakes than others. I think QBs should be rated on this when being scouted.

 

Yes, having a dominant run game can make PA even more effective. When it's not effective is when a defense doesn't care if you run.  I remember Norv in blowouts running PA. It was kind of funny to watch, outside of the whole getting blown out thing.

[Bigmuss1]

1 hour ago, TheShredder said:

That's what you've got to hope for.  How much of this is the players not being motivated in pre-season??  Listen to the interviews and the same crap is being repeated up until after this third game..."It's just pre-season"..."we're working on it"..."got to fix that"...if you listen to Grudens conferences you'll hear he's been saying the same crap.  There's been no sense of urgency by the HC and it's who this team is right now. His play calling hasn't been worth a damn.  The offense isn't just starting slow.  The offense is out of sync, slow to play with energy, and basically looking unprepared to play at a level that can win NFL games. 

Players not motivated or just in self preservation mode to make it thru the game.  

 

Jay's play calling has been as vanilla as it gets.  Then he finally gets sick of doing nothing on offense and calls a couple of actual plays.  (Screen and read option).  

 

Even with our play calling it has been the 3rd down penalties that has killed most of their opening drives.  Kelly gained 6 yards on 3 and 2 yesterday, illegal motion brought it back.  Who knows what happens if we don't get a penalty there.  

 

Pryor ( who can catch the **** out of the ball) drops a sure first down going into or near the red zone.  Next play pick 6.  Doesn't happen if our number one catches that pass. ( which he will 9 times out of ten)

 

I look at that game from those perspectives more than, we suck, we are slow, we can't make a play, play calling sucks, Jay sucks, Kirk sucks, Pryor can't catch lenses....

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, RandyHolt said:

A HUGE part of play action IMHO, is the QBs natural ability to sell it. Some QBs are much better at fakes than others. I think QBs should be rated on this when being scouted.

The best ball-handingling QB I've ever seen was early Peyton Manning.  Even late he was pretty good.  But early in his career, he was as good a ball-handler as they came. 

 

The most obvious play was actually later in his career.  It was goal-line, and he performed such a ridiculously awesome fake handoff that he was running into the endzone on a boot before the cameraman figured out Peyton still had the ball.  The defense never figured it out.  He was 20 yards from anybody.  

[NewCliche21]

3 hours ago, Bigmuss1 said:

<snip>

Probably gonna open up the positive thread 2.0 for this season, I can't take the over the top reactions, I would rather discuss what happened during a game good and bad with rational reactions and reflections.  

 

Coming to ES for that is like going into the ocean to dry off.

[skinzplay]

Line is still a work in progress, but I trust Callahan to get it right. IMHO, Trent should've been moved to RT about four years ago and we should've brought in a stud LT. Moses should've never been drafted. I like him, but his deficiencies are too often on glaring display on Sundays.

[XxSpearheadxX]

15 minutes ago, skinzplay said:

Line is still a work in progress, but I trust Callahan to get it right. IMHO, Trent should've been moved to RT about four years ago and we should've brought in a stud LT. 

You don't consider Trent Williams a top 3 LT in the NFL.?

[skinzplay]

He gets beat more than most would like to acknowledge (all premier players do), but I think he's good, absolutely! Moving him to RT (which is his position of strength anyway) would prolong his career and allow us to get that left side set for the long-term.

[Hail2theSkins24]

I wonder what's wrong with Scherff. Has to be an injury of some sort. He's been getting bodied this preseason. I think he has always been overrated but he's definitely better than what he's been showing. We need him

[XxSpearheadxX]

2 hours ago, skinzplay said:

He gets beat more than most would like to acknowledge (all premier players do), but I think he's good, absolutely! Moving him to RT (which is his position of strength anyway) would prolong his career and allow us to get that left side set for the long-term.

So you are talking draft? I mean you don't trade for top 2 LT like you dont trade for top 2 QB or top 2 pass rushers. Let alone most top 2 positions. Who would you have drafted? 

[XxSpearheadxX]

6 hours ago, Hail2theSkins24 said:

I wonder what's wrong with Scherff. Has to be an injury of some sort. He's been getting bodied this preseason. I think he has always been overrated but he's definitely better than what he's been showing. We need him

I'm a big Scherff fan/defender. It's extremely weird though. No defending it, he's been poo so far. 

[TheShredder]

10 hours ago, Bigmuss1 said:

Players not motivated or just in self preservation mode to make it thru the game.  

 

Jay's play calling has been as vanilla as it gets.  Then he finally gets sick of doing nothing on offense and calls a couple of actual plays.  (Screen and read option).  

 

Even with our play calling it has been the 3rd down penalties that has killed most of their opening drives.  Kelly gained 6 yards on 3 and 2 yesterday, illegal motion brought it back.  Who knows what happens if we don't get a penalty there.  

 

Pryor ( who can catch the **** out of the ball) drops a sure first down going into or near the red zone.  Next play pick 6.  Doesn't happen if our number one catches that pass. ( which he will 9 times out of ten)

 

I look at that game from those perspectives more than, we suck, we are slow, we can't make a play, play calling sucks, Jay sucks, Kirk sucks, Pryor can't catch lenses....

 

 

I'm not selling that they don't have talent.  The observations are about motivation primarily.  Jay's play calling (as he stated himself) needs to be better.  Cousins stated the same thing.  I never said KC sucks or Pryor sucks.  They're both talented and at least Pryor has been working his ass off....while KC has stated he's been taking it easier then all the other years.  KC looks awkward, hesitant, and mechanical, while starring down each target.  Once he gets calmed down ("in a groove"), he's fine.  It's pretty obvious that Gruden has run another SOFT off-season.  Listen to the Gallette's post game interview and you'll hear him say that in a round about way.  He says Gruden takes it easy on them.  Now, if you watch the Dallas games, they're all playing with a turbo tempo and sense of urgency.  It makes me sick watching and hearing that the Skins are frustrated they always start slow...but don't worry...KC said they'll figure it out by about October.  What in the hell is going on over there...it's pathetic.

[TysonM]

Why did we find it so useful to switch to Rob Kelley last year?

 

It was his skill at regularly turning what would have been a loss into positive yardage, which Matt Jones wasn't good at.  That reflects poorly on the line.

 

The line was like this, it still is like this... something clearly isn't working.  If things do not improve this year, a coaching change may be in order.

[OVCChairman]

On 8/27/2017 at 8:36 AM, Fat Stupid Loser said:

In fairness to Kirk or any QB, he can't see that like you can watching on a big screen. Otherwise, I'm sure he would do it.

I'm guilty of yelling STEP UP, GEEZ!  I'm sure he'd yell back, "You get in here and try it genius".

I agree... you, me, anyone on this board can't do it better... but we're also not getting paid $24 million to do it.  Top tier QBs have that ability and instinct.  He can feel the pressure, you can see it.  My issue is the decision making he has AFTER he senses it.  Early in his career, he would attempt to stand tall, at times forcing a throw just to try to get rid of the ball.  As he's developed he now is more inclined to tuck the ball (which applaud, preventing the turnover should be top priority), at times taking the sack, or panicking and evacuating the pocket.  Now I want him to take that next step of being able to evade WITHIN the pocket, without abandoning it, or without crumbling and taking a sack.

[Fat Stupid Loser]

30 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

I agree... you, me, anyone on this board can't do it better... but we're also not getting paid $24 million to do it.  Top tier QBs have that ability and instinct.  He can feel the pressure, you can see it.  My issue is the decision making he has AFTER he senses it.  Early in his career, he would attempt to stand tall, at times forcing a throw just to try to get rid of the ball.  As he's developed he now is more inclined to tuck the ball (which applaud, preventing the turnover should be top priority), at times taking the sack, or panicking and evacuating the pocket.  Now I want him to take that next step of being able to evade WITHIN the pocket, without abandoning it, or without crumbling and taking a sack.

I guess my point is that all QBs do that, no matter what their salary. There are 3 or 4 in the league that are actually better than Kirk at it. I've seen him do it plenty of times though. He is not any worse at it than the top 4 or so guys.

[OVCChairman]

9 minutes ago, Fat Stupid Loser said:

I guess my point is that all QBs do that, no matter what their salary. There are 3 or 4 in the league that are actually better than Kirk at it. I've seen him do it plenty of times though. He is not any worse at it than the top 4 or so guys.

Absolutely, I've seen it as well, which makes is what drives me nuts when he doesn't do it lol.  It happened in the game against Green Bay when we were in the Redzone... The pocket fell a bit, and Kirk bailed out to his check down where Crowder was streaking across the back of the endzone, 2 steps ahead of his defender.  I'm not saying he 'can't' do it, i'm just saying that I want to see him doing it MORE, and that it'll go a LOOONNNGGG way toward the success of this offense, especially with this line.  

[MassSkinsFan]

19 hours ago, skinzplay said:

He gets beat more than most would like to acknowledge (all premier players do), but I think he's good, absolutely! Moving him to RT (which is his position of strength anyway) would prolong his career and allow us to get that left side set for the long-term.

 

1) What's your basis for saying RT is Trent's position of strength? Let me remind you he has played LT very well at the NFL level for 7 seasons, 3 more than he played RT at Oklahoma.

 

2) How does a move from LT to RT prolong a player's career? Either way you're getting pummeled. Is there some evidence that a LT faces an appreciably higher level of physical abuse than a RT?

 

3) TW is a stud LT. He's easily top 3. If you don't agree, please come back with evidence. 

 

Moses isn't a stud, but you don't often get two stud Ts on one line. We need to be competent across the board.

 

Right now we have a stud LT, a competent RT, and a competent-plus (when playing the way we know he should) RG. The other two are not so competent.

 

Rather than focusing on fixing a non-existent problem at LT, let's hope Coach Callahan develops Roullier and starts looking for the next LG. 

[Guardshock]

19 hours ago, skinzplay said:

He gets beat more than most would like to acknowledge (all premier players do), but I think he's good, absolutely! Moving him to RT (which is his position of strength anyway) would prolong his career and allow us to get that left side set for the long-term.

 

LOL. He was the #1 Left Tackle in the league per PFF last year..

[Dark Acre]

Brian Mitchell needs to be in charge of training camp.  No one will call it easy or soft.

[goskins10]

2 hours ago, MassSkinsFan said:

 

1) What's your basis for saying RT is Trent's position of strength? Let me remind you he has played LT very well at the NFL level for 7 seasons, 3 more than he played RT at Oklahoma.

 

2) How does a move from LT to RT prolong a player's career? Either way you're getting pummeled. Is there some evidence that a LT faces an appreciably higher level of physical abuse than a RT?

 

3) TW is a stud LT. He's easily top 3. If you don't agree, please come back with evidence. 

 

Moses isn't a stud, but you don't often get two stud Ts on one line. We need to be competent across the board.

 

Right now we have a stud LT, a competent RT, and a competent-plus (when playing the way we know he should) RG. The other two are not so competent.

 

Rather than focusing on fixing a non-existent problem at LT, let's hope Coach Callahan develops Roullier and starts looking for the next LG. 

 

 

Let me answer some of those:

 

1. No basis what so ever outside of that's what he played in college. However, he is widely regarded as one of the top 5 LT in the NFL, not be just pundits but by metrics and the guys he plays against.

 

2. As players age they do lose a step. Joe Jacoby slowed a little and so was moved to RT where in that day the RT could be a bit slower. This has zero value now since the DL moves around so the Rt has to have to have the same athletic ability as the LT.

 

3. There is no evidence. None at all to support. Please #1 - sorry this was the same question.... :-) 

 

Our line issues - as such as they are - are Sean Laovau first then Spencer Long second - although it would be nice to how Long plays with a competent LG.

 

Of all the issues that the team has to focus on arguably the best player on the team and call them out as a problem is truly mind boggling.

[skinzplay]

Funny how people go all Ernest T. Bass on you when you share a simple opinion on here. Guys, I never said Trent was old, washed up, a "has been", should be cut, should be traded, is a bum, etc. Jesus Christ, people. I want the guy to be with the Skins and on that field til he retires. Hence the underlying message I was hoping to convey about moving him to RT so he can play longer, and selecting a younger LT so we can shore up the line. I'm not at all sold on Moses. It's simply a theory, which is why I also didn't identity a LT to draft. If that becomes possible, then sure, let's draft one. Had Jammal Brown not suffered repeated injury, he would have been our LT and Trent would've been placed at RT; that's what Shanahan was going to do (whether right away or not, I don't know). Injury got in the way of that.

 

Relax people, for goodness sake. We're here to celebrate the Skins, not jump down somebody's throat whenever they say something that you can't verify through a google search.

[I Love The Skins]

On 8/28/2017 at 0:47 PM, Bigmuss1 said:

I look at that game from those perspectives more than, we suck, we are slow, we can't make a play, play calling sucks, Jay sucks, Kirk sucks, Pryor can't catch lenses....

 

 

 I do too I don't understand why some just focus on the negatives. I certainly don't focus on them.

[lavar1156]

We should just roll with Chase at center and move Long to LG. I think that would solve some of the the run game woes.

[goskins10]

53 minutes ago, skinzplay said:

Funny how people go all Ernest T. Bass on you when you share a simple opinion on here. Guys, I never said Trent was old, washed up, a "has been", should be cut, should be traded, is a bum, etc. Jesus Christ, people. I want the guy to be with the Skins and on that field til he retires. Hence the underlying message I was hoping to convey about moving him to RT so he can play longer, and selecting a younger LT so we can shore up the line. I'm not at all sold on Moses. It's simply a theory, which is why I also didn't identity a LT to draft. If that becomes possible, then sure, let's draft one. Had Jammal Brown not suffered repeated injury, he would have been our LT and Trent would've been placed at RT; that's what Shanahan was going to do (whether right away or not, I don't know). Injury got in the way of that.

 

Relax people, for goodness sake. We're here to celebrate the Skins, not jump down somebody's throat whenever they say something that you can't verify through a google search.

 

 

When you make a baseless claim about the play of arguably the best player on the team, expect to get some back lash. So how about you not go all Skip Bayless and we can have a data based discussion?

 

To that end, had you left it at moving TW to RT to extend his career been all you said, then no problem - although in todays NFL that's not nearly as valid as it once was. But at least that's a valid conversation that arguments can be made for both points of view. 

 

However, to try to make the point your entire statement included "He gets beat more than most would like to acknowledge (all premier players do), but I think he's good, absolutely! Moving him to RT (which is his position of strength anyway) would prolong his career and allow us to get that left side set for the long-term."

 

There is nothing to back that position up. His peers believe him to be one of the best LT in the league. PFF (not the gold standard by any means, but they do have some actual metrics), had him ranked #1! Even if they are a little wrong he is still easily one of the best 5 LT in football. Your comments suggest otherwise.

 

 

[skinzplay]

Nothing to add here, I'll move on. You can hang on to it if you'd like (apparently that's the preference). I've called the man a premier LT, said how much I want him on the team....don't know how much more you want. We don't have enough food in our fridge to feed an NFL offensive linemen for Thanksgiving, so as much as I would like to extend an invitation, I don't think that's gonna happen.......wife would kill me. But if you don't think he gets beat, fine. We'll agree that he's an elite LT -- I've already said that. Done with this exchange.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

18 hours ago, TysonM said:

Why did we find it so useful to switch to Rob Kelley last year?

 

 

Because Jones fumbled like a mf'er...played smaller than his size...and runs too straight up.