The 2017 FA Thread - OP Updated with Signings (Sundberg, Galette, VD, Hood re-signed) *** Terrell McClain, Stacy McGee, DJ Swearinger, Terrelle Pryor, Chris Carter, Brian Quick, ZACH BROWN(!!)***

[Morneblade]

1 minute ago, justice98 said:

 

I dont wanna spend a lot if the guy's essentially gonna be a part time player. 

 

Nor do I think we should pinch pennies expecting to get more than we've gotten, which is what it seems people think is gonna happen.

 

If there was a guy that would play significant snaps and have an impact, pay that guy.  People seemed to think that was Hankins before last week.  

 

Generally, I think the whole thing is overrated.  They should stop running a defense that relies on a position that is basically a unicorn.  Or they can go another 5 years hoping some stud falls in their lap.

 

I completely agree. Never should have switched to the 3-4, especially if you are not going to go after a NT.

 

But the fact is, that is where we are. With this FO.

[Skinsinparadise]

I don't see signing a NT as an either or situation.  Yeah of course we can still draft a NT and we should if one falls to us.  But I like going BPA in the draft.  I'll throw a hypothetical example.   You almost always have surprise falls for example in the third round.  Lets say they love Marcus Williams as a free safety and he's surprisingly dropped to their pick in the third round, lets say Tomlinson is gone (some draft geeks say he might be a surprise 2nd round pick) and your next highly rated nose is Qualls and you have him rated as a 4th rounder.  We got no nose, so we got to take Qualls?    Its those type of scenarios I like to avoid.  

 

I hate going into the draft with a position that is completely dependent on the draft.  The two examples in the past that spring to mind is the trade up for Rocky McIntosh when we needed a weak side LB and looking for a CB to replace Fred Smoot and taking Carlos Rogers. 

 

Do I think we should grab a nose tackle?  In our current state, heck yeah.  If they like a FA who they think could be the answer -- I'd still want to draft one but I just wouldn't feel as desperate about it where the team could more easily exploit the flow of the draft -- and take a more seamless BPA approach.

[Morneblade]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I don't see signing a NT as an either or situation.  Yeah of course we can still draft a NT and we should if one falls to us.  But I like going BPA in the draft.  I'll throw a hypothetical example.   You almost always have surprise falls for example in the third round.  Lets say they love Marcus Williams as a free safety and he's surprisingly dropped to their pick in the third round, lets say Tomlinson is gone (some draft geeks say he might be a surprise 2nd round pick) and your next highly rate nose is Qualls and you have him rated as a 4th rounder.  We got no nose, so we got to take Qualls?    Its those type of scenarios I like to avoid.  

 

I hate going into the draft with a position that is completely dependent on the draft.  The two examples in the past that spring to mind is the trade up for Rocky McIntosh when we needed a weak side LB and looking for a CB to replace Fred Smoot and taking Carlos Rogers. 

 

Do I think we should grab a nose tackle?  In our current state, heck yeah.  If they like a FA who they think could be the answer -- I'd still want to draft one but I just wouldn't feel as desperate about it where the team could more easily exploit the flow of the draft -- and take a more seamless BPA approach.

 

Exactly. If we had at least one live body on the team, you don't HAVE to take a NT, but we probably should anyway. Sen'Derrick Marks is out there and so is Dan Williams. If there is another guy that can play NT out there, I don't know about him. We should bring one of those guys in before the draft.

[Peregrine]

The Cleveland Browns dont HAVE to become a competent football team, but if you were a browns fan youd be pretty mad if they didnt try.

 

The Redskins dont HAVE to get a real NT, but as a fan Ill be pretty made if they dont try.

[Master Blaster]

1 hour ago, Morneblade said:

 

Exactly. If we had at least one live body on the team, you don't HAVE to take a NT, but we probably should anyway. Sen'Derrick Marks is out there and so is Dan Williams. If there is another guy that can play NT out there, I don't know about him. We should bring one of those guys in before the draft.

 

 

I can also see the desire, knowing there are potentially two options on the market, to seeing what happens in the draft before signing either, but if not having one forces a pick, then I agree in picking one up prior. 

[Morneblade]

18 minutes ago, Master Blaster said:

 

 

I can also see the desire, knowing there are potentially two options on the market, to seeing what happens in the draft before signing either, but if not having one forces a pick, then I agree in picking one up prior. 

 

I would disagree to some extent. Both guys on the market are older, but have done some things on the NFL level, they are a safer, if not good bet. The real NT's in the draft, are not day 1 starters. I really don't think the asking price for either FA will change much (vet min +incentives) after the draft. And you're less likely to reach for a guy in the draft because you "need" the position.

[Koolblue13]

They'll be there after the draft. Makes no sense to sign them now.

[HTTRDynasty]

11 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

They'll be there after the draft. Makes no sense to sign them now.

 

They'll have more leverage after the draft against a team that still doesn't have a starting NT on their roster.

[Koolblue13]

5 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

They'll have more leverage after the draft against a team that still doesn't have a starting NT on their roster.

No they won't. Theres a bunch of guys in the draft. If we somehow dont get one, were not going to be financially bullied by a guy who repeatedly fails physicals.

[skinsfan93]

On 4/13/2017 at 10:46 PM, clskinsfan said:

 

And Gruden is right. Ask 49er fans what they think about losing Tomsula:

 

"Tomsula took over the Niner’s d-line in 2007. In the eight seasons in which he was in charge of the position group, the 49ers ranked fourth in the NFL in rushing yards allowed per game (98.4), second in yards per attempt (3.72) and third in points allowed (19.4). In 2011, the unit set an NFL record by not allowing a rushing touchdown in their first 14 games, and only gave up three the entire season."

 

"DE Justin Smith made five Pro Bowls and was selected to three All-Pro teams in his seven seasons with San Francisco. He never received either accolade in the seven seasons prior to working with Tomsula. Linemen like NT Aubrayo Franklin, NT Isaac Sopoaga, and DE Ricky Jean-Francois made an impact with the 49ers, but were bascially invisible after leaving the team. NT Glenn Dorsey, who was selected fifth overall in the 2008 draft, was seen as a disappointment in his first five years with the Kansas City Chiefs. Under Tomsula, he flourished as a nose tackle with the Niners until injuries took him off the field."

 

"Tomsula’s also worked wonders with undrafted players like NT Ian Williams, who was turning into force in the middle last year before getting injured. Even undrafted role players like DE Demarcus Dobbs and Tony Jerod-Eddie stepped up admirably when called upon. Late round draft picks? He’s helped them too, as DE Ray McDonald (3rd round) was a stalwart opposite Smith from 2011-2014, and DE Quinton Dial (5th round) has turned into a valuable asset (he’s currently the second highest rated d-lineman on the team per Pro Football Focus at 75.8)."

 

"If you didn’t appreciate Tomsula from 2007-2014, you’re probably starting to miss him now. After years of stout defense up front, the 49ers are abysmal this season, and the line is pushed around with regularity. Under DC Jim O’Neil and defensive line coach Jerry Azzinaro, San Francisco ranks last in rushing yards allowed (2032), yards per carry (4.9) and have allowed nine 100-yard rushers this season. "

 

https://ninerfans.com/as-a-position-coach-the-49ers-really-miss-jim-tomsula/

 

 

 

When Tomsula was hired as a head coach I watched his first interview and thought...man this guy was a horrendous choice. He doesn't speak well and just came across as a moron. Obviously his one and only year was a disaster. 

 

However as a line coach, it's obvious what he meant to those 49ers teams. That defensive line produced key players which helped them have star linebackers and a pretty good secondary. 

 

I think picking him up is just as important as any move we made this offseason. 

[Morneblade]

23 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

They'll be there after the draft. Makes no sense to sign them now.

 

Neither guy is going to demand much on the open market. Both are 30ish, and coming off of down years. You get one now so you don't need to reach for one in the draft. Both are stop gaps and they know it.

Vet min + Incentives is all it's going to take.

[HTTRDynasty]

2 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

No they won't. Theres a bunch of guys in the draft. If we somehow dont get one, were not going to be financially bullied by a guy who repeatedly fails physicals.

 

The whole point of signing them to cheap deals before the draft is so we don't have to reach during the draft.  I also don't know if I'd call a handful of guys that 32 teams have a chance to select a "bunch of guys".  The DL class was loaded last year, yet we didn't get one until the 5th round.  The draft doesn't always break the way you need it to, which leads to reaching on guys you shouldn't reach on. 

 

And losing leverage doesn't mean we are going to be "financially bullied".  We could decide his price is too high and walk away.  That doesn't mean it would be the smart move to wait until after the draft to try signing him.

[skinny21]

Regarding the NT position... I think it doesn't hurt to consider the fact that Manusky has a bunch of experience with both 1 and 2 gap lines.  Working with Phillips (and others running a 1 gap scheme) means he isn't necessarily reliant on a massive NT.  Size-wise, he can work with our current linemen.  With that said, this group is probably decent at best.  Hopefully he continues 1 gap the dline - as it fits our roster better - and/or we manage to add a more traditional NT (that's not on his last legs, ala Big Phil).  Also hoping he continues his tendency to bring 5 rushers, they find another lineman (or 2) that can add a notch to the talent level, and have 1 or more of our guys step up - Ioannidas/Lanier/etc.

 

Essentially, I just want to add talent to the dline (the front 7 in general, really), and I'm less hung up on the NT position in particular given Manusky's (and Tomsula's) track record.

 

 

old article, but posting it for posterity's sake

 

http://www.battleredblog.com/2011/1/4/1913068/thats-so-crazy-it-just-might-work-examining-wade-phillips-3-4-scheme

Phillips' system, however, has the linemen --- even the nose tackle --- playing a one-gap system.  At the snap, each of those linemen picks one of his two gaps and shoots through it.  He is responsible for anything coming through that gap, with the linebackers responsible for anything coming through an open gap.  (We'll cover the linebackers more in a second.)  While Phillips' scheme does generally use larger DEs similar to what you'd find in  the traditional two-gap 3-4 front, his system does not require them.  Case in point, while all of Dallas' DEs this year were over 300 lbs, Luis Castillo played at 290 or less while Phillips was there.  Yes, that's big in a 4-3 DE, but that's undersized in your traditional 3-4 mold.

 

Nor does Phillips' plan require a massive nose tackle.  Sure, he will use them when he can get them (again, think San Diego with 340+ lb Jamal Williams), but they are not required because, in Phillips' scheme, the nose tackle has no more responsibility for eating up blockers than does any other defensive lineman.  In fact, one of Dallas' starting DEs, Igor Olshansky, weighed more than Dallas' starting NT, Jay Ratliff, who is listed at 6-4/303 (though he is probably closer to 310 these days).

 

 

as well as this one

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/football-insider/wp/2017/01/23/a-closer-look-at-what-greg-manuskys-redskins-defense-might-look-like/?utm_term=.7b4210cb85f4

[skinsfan93]

Interesting how it seems so many on the board wants a NT or even two. Yea I think if we can get a stout player ala Wilfork who I wanted when he came out, that would be great. However I think we are gonna run a lot more 4-3 fronts or even a hybrid 3-4. In addition every team runs more and more nickel packages that a slow NT actually plays few downs. 

 

Hood played out of place, Baker didn't wanna play NT, and we got 2 players to replace him and rotate in. Let's see how Taylor Ioannidis and Francis look after being coached up. One of those guys will probably make the roster at least. 

 

Depending on how many lineman we carry I'm not sure drafting two NTs would even make sense. I rather get a big DE who can rush the qb and can be part of the rotation. Oh and I don't want Foster or Riddick. They're too small to play mlb in a 3-4. We need a guys who are at least 250lbs. Heck both are too small to be ouside backers in a 3-4 too. 

[Morneblade]

2 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Regarding the NT position... I think it doesn't hurt to consider the fact that Manusky has a bunch of experience with both 1 and 2 gap lines.  Working with Phillips (and others running a 1 gap scheme) means he isn't necessarily reliant on a massive NT.  Size-wise, he can work with our current linemen.  With that said, this group is probably decent at best.  Hopefully he continues 1 gap the dline - as it fits our roster better - and/or we manage to add a more traditional NT (that's not on his last legs, ala Big Phil).  Also hoping he continues his tendency to bring 5 rushers, they find another lineman (or 2) that can add a notch to the talent level, and have 1 or more of our guys step up - Ioannidas/Lanier/etc.

 

Essentially, I just want to add talent to the dline (the front 7 in general, really), and I'm less hung up on the NT position in particular given Manusky's (and Tomsula's) track record.

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, skinsfan93 said:

 

Depending on how many lineman we carry I'm not sure drafting two NTs would even make sense. I rather get a big DE who can rush the qb and can be part of the rotation. Oh and I don't want Foster or Riddick. They're too small to play mlb in a 3-4. We need a guys who are at least 250lbs. Heck both are too small to be ouside backers in a 3-4 too. 

 

Who is saying we should draft 2 NT's?

[skinny21]

@Morneblade  I know you're hung up on the NT more than any on this board (or at least you're the loudest and memeist about it), but it's a valid argument that 1 gapping a nose tackle means you're less likely to need a space eater.  Personally, I want one so that we can 2 gap from the 0 tech when we so choose, but it's not as though we should just forfeit games because we don't wind up with 1 (well, a good one anyway).  If we add talent to the front 7, it's going to help, almost regardless of our NT situation.  The team has lacked defensive talent across the board for a long time and I think some are quick to assume it's mostly due to our NT situation.  Improve the line, add a speed rusher (a versatile rusher would be more accurate), a corner that can jump in the mix, a linebacker to prepare for Brown's likely departure, and a safety for competition/depth.  It's a tall order, but between the draft, and some of our current youngsters, we've got a puncher's chance.  

 

Dline is my top need, but I'm not thinking we have to land a Nose (in particular) or it's doom and gloom.  

 

One last thing, Hood and Mcgee are solid 2 gapping linemen accustomed to double teams.  Ioannidas probably fits there as well.  Improve the guys around them (at DE, OLB and ILB), play aggressively, and I believe we can mitigate the lack of the massive fireplug.

 

 

FYI, since you bolded the 'track record' part of my post, I thought I'd make sure you knew where I was coming from (didn't seem like you did) - wasn't talking about coaching 'em up sort of track record, but more Manusky's history of running 1 and 2 gap.  I think he'll stick to the Wade Phillips style of defense - aggressive front 7, dropping the SS into the middle and playing press coverage with corners.  Yes, Barry tried to do the same, but 1) he had a weak spine (lol) to work with, and 2) the corners were fairly awful outside of Norman.  Think that's why corner was (seemingly) so high Manusky's wishlist (or whatever it was)

[Est.1974]

18 hours ago, I Love The Skins said:

I thinih the Skins will take Dalvin Tomlinson in the 3rd round if he is on the board.

 

Not a big fan of two blown ACLs, otherwise I'd agree.

 

Interestingly his NFL.com draft bio compares him to Dan Williams 

4 hours ago, MartinC said:

 

Look out for Stevie Tu'ikolovatu is the 5th or 6th as well. 

 

I sure hope so, been shouting his name for a while. Other than being the oldest guy in the draft I think at 26, he's a cracking prospect and we could do far worse on a value rookie deal for the next few years.

[Morneblade]

12 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

@Morneblade  I know you're hung up on the NT more than any on this board (or at least you're the loudest and memeist about it), but it's a valid argument that 1 gapping a nose tackle means you're less likely to need a space eater.  Personally, I want one so that we can 2 gap from the 0 tech when we so choose, but it's not as though we should just forfeit games because we don't wind up with 1 (well, a good one anyway).  If we add talent to the front 7, it's going to help, almost regardless of our NT situation.  The team has lacked defensive talent across the board for a long time and I think some are quick to assume it's mostly due to our NT situation.  Improve the line, add a speed rusher (a versatile rusher would be more accurate), a corner that can jump in the mix, a linebacker to prepare for Brown's likely departure, and a safety for competition/depth.  It's a tall order, but between the draft, and some of our current youngsters, we've got a puncher's chance.  

 

I'm not, there are several people here that are just as adamant, but maybe not as vocal. The biggest issues with NT is that we ACTUALLY DON'T HAVE ONE. Let's forget talent for a second. We have Phil Taylor, and his 2 year vacation for football because of bad knees. That's about it. If you are going to run a 3-4, you need a NT. It's that simple. I agree that we need more talent on the DL and I have been pushing very hard for that as well.

 

12 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

 

Dline is my top need, but I'm not thinking we have to land a Nose (in particular) or it's doom and gloom.  

 

One last thing, Hood and Mcgee are solid 2 gapping linemen accustomed to double teams.  Ioannidas probably fits there as well.  Improve the guys around them (at DE, OLB and ILB), play aggressively, and I believe we can mitigate the lack of the massive fireplug.

 

We don't need a 350 pound guy in there, but we DO need a guy that cannot get blown off the LOS. We're likely going to be a 1 gap system, so if he's 320 and has some quickness, that's great, but he's STILL going to need to be able to anchor too. We have not had that, and have been gashed. None of the guys you mentioned I have any faith in to be effective as a NT.

 

By the way, Wade Phillips said the NT was the 2nd most important part position in football. In front of LT. And it seems everyone just thinks you can throw junk at the position and expect results. So, if you wonder why I tend to be vocal about it, that part of the reason why.

 

12 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

 

FYI, since you bolded the 'track record' part of my post, I thought I'd make sure you knew where I was coming from (didn't seem like you did) - wasn't talking about coaching 'em up sort of track record, but more Manusky's history of running 1 and 2 gap.  I think he'll stick to the Wade Phillips style of defense - aggressive front 7, dropping the SS into the middle and playing press coverage with corners.  Yes, Barry tried to do the same, but 1) he had a weak spine (lol) to work with, and 2) the corners were fairly awful outside of Norman.  Think that's why corner was (seemingly) so high Manusky's wishlist (or whatever it was)

 

I know what Manusky runs, he's going to prefer a attacking 1 gap scheme. Although at this point I wish we would just scrap the 3-4 and run a 4-3. The big issue was how soft the middle of the defense was. No push. Can't stop the run, can push the pocket. And to be frank, I don't care who the CB's are, if you don't get pressure, they are going to get burned.

 

We've added Brown, who I like, and not much else in the middle. We might have taken a step back on the DL, and still no NT. Not looking good so far as far as the "spine" of the team.

[clskinsfan]

1 hour ago, skinsfan93 said:

In addition every team runs more and more nickel packages that a slow NT actually plays few downs.

 

Good post. And it is only going to get worse as teams move to even more spread offense. Ask the Skins why the didnt re sign Pot Roast. During the regular season he played pretty well for us. But once Aaron Rodgers got a hold of our defense and wouldnt let the fat roast off of the field we got torched. The days of a two down NT are limited IMO. Offenses have adjusted to the 3-4 base very well.

[Morneblade]

3 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

 

Good post. And it is only going to get worse as teams move to even more spread offense. Ask the Skins why the didnt re sign Pot Roast. During the regular season he played pretty well for us. But once Aaron Rodgers got a hold of our defense and wouldnt let the fat roast off of the field we got torched. The days of a two down NT are limited IMO. Offenses have adjusted to the 3-4 base very well.

 

So, maybe just scrap it and run a 4-3?

[clskinsfan]

19 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

So, maybe just scrap it and run a 4-3?

 

I would be fine with that actually. I think we could field a competitive defense in the 4-3 right now. The biggest issue I see would be at OLB. I guess you could move Foster and Brown outside and leave Compton in the middle. But that alone makes me want to scrap that idea. I cant wait to see our defense on the field without Compton in the lineup

[Morneblade]

25 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

 

I would be fine with that actually. I think we could field a competitive defense in the 4-3 right now. The biggest issue I see would be at OLB. I guess you could move Foster and Brown outside and leave Compton in the middle. But that alone makes me want to scrap that idea. I cant wait to see our defense on the field without Compton in the lineup

 

We'd likely have to draft someone, but then someone like Foster (Rueben) would fit much better than in our current 3-4. We'd have a lot of depth at DT, not sure about DE though. We'd likely be thin there. But there are several 4-3 DE's that look good too.

[goskins10]

6 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

We'd likely have to draft someone, but then someone like Foster (Rueben) would fit much better than in our current 3-4. We'd have a lot of depth at DT, not sure about DE though. We'd likely be thin there. But there are several 4-3 DE's that look good too.

 

Both Ryan Kerrigan and Preston Smith were DEs in college. Some have argued - and probably rightly so that both would be more effective in a 4-3.

[Morneblade]

7 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

Both Ryan Kerrigan and Preston Smith were DEs in college. Some have argued - and probably rightly so that both would be more effective in a 4-3.

 

Yes, but Kerrigan is light for a 4-3 LDE. Those guys are usually around 280-290. More runs stuffers and edge setters.  Smith could play at his weight right now, being as he'd be the rush end. And I think that depth would be thin. Murphy is out for 4 games, Galette is a big ? and not really  a 4-3 end.

 

Edit: But to add, I would be much happier moving to a 4-3. MUCH. it's easier to find players for and it's better against the run. And while it's not as unpredictable as as 3-4, we had a lot of top 10 D's with it, with pretty good, but not great players. I'd be on board.

[goskins10]

Just now, Morneblade said:

 

Yes, but Kerrigan is light for a 4-3 LDE. Those guys are usually around 280-290. More runs stuffers and edge setters.  Smith could play at his weight right now, being as he'd be the rush end. And I think that depth would be thin. Murphy is out for 4 games, Galette is a big ? and not really  a 4-3 end.

 

Ryan lost a little weight to play OLB. He was 274 for his pro-day. I am sure he could bulk up if needed. Murphy has played DE already. Yes he will miss 4 games. But so what? He is still on the team. Gallette is the biggest ? But that's 3 without including the draft.

 

If they want to do it they could fairly easily. Not sure they will. But it could be done.