darrelgreenie Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 See the below link that ES member Skinsnation provided earlier as Barry goes into some chalk board details about the defensive scheme he deploys. Interesting stuff. DC9 and DG ypur thoughts if any? http://www.chargers.com/video/videos/1218-Xs-and-Os---Joe-Barry/9e5a7a1c-7b3e-4b8e-ac67-f0131e1c4a53 HTTR! I watched both of Barry's videos on the sight, I took a screen cap with my phone (shown below) of Will Wink Strong Free. By the time I went back to take a screen cap for Sam Sink Moe Free Chargers.com had already removed both videos. 1st things first Will Wink Strong Free is just one of many concepts found in the Chargers/Barry's or any defense. Anyhow here is a quick take: Will Wink Strong Free is the chargers version of a common Cover 1 Man defense often called "Robber". Cover 1 has a single high post safety playing deep in the middle of the field or "hole". The underneath defenders are in man to man. In the "robber" defense another defender 'plugs' the void underneath the FS. A more detailed breakdown of Cover 1: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2032934-nfl-101-introducing-the-basics-of-cover-1 First I'll insert where I think next year's personnel could fit in the play above: C-Amerson/Hall--S--Trent Murphy--LE-Cofied-NT-Baker-RE-Hatcher--W-Kerrigan--C-Breeland SS-Thomas M-Riley Mo-Robinson FS-Ihenacho/Hall 4-Man pressure with the Kerrigan (1-gap DL) Thomas moves down creating an 8 man box in case its a run Emerson/Breeland are in man Trent has TE man to man Ihenacho plays single high deep S Thomas-Riley-Robinson are responsible for the 2 backs out of the backfield and plugging the underneath hole IF both backs go flow to the right then Thomas is the plugger IF the backs split then Thomas has the back to his side, Robinson has the back to his side and Riley is the plugger etc... I wish the video was still up, but one thing Barry mentioned was WWSF was good vs the run/pass. I never did a breakdown or kept track of how often Haslett played with a 2-gap front on 1st down. But imho one of the downfalls of playing Okie (2-gap) base on 1st down is the lack of pressure compared to playing 1-gap when/if teams pass on 1st down. Sure Okie is stout against the run but in the modern NFL more and more offenses pass on 1st down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbo Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 dg, I remember seeing it in another thread, and a couple of posters immediately flaming it as some amateurish easy-to-beat scheme. You think the scheme is ok v. the run, but not so much the pass? Or does it scream "clueless" to you in general? (I know that's exaggeration, but given much of the dialogue in the forum on Barry already, it's how many seem to feel already re: his projected competence). It strikes me as "mundane" or "pedestrian" but not something "dumb." But, by my standards, this is not my forte. And nice post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted January 23, 2015 Author Share Posted January 23, 2015 ...You think the scheme is ok v. the run, but not so much the pass? Or does it scream "clueless" to you in general? (I know that's exaggeration, but given much of the dialogue in the forum on Barry already, it's how many seem to feel already re: his projected competence). It strikes me as "mundane" or "pedestrian" but not something "dumb." But, by my standards, this is not my forte. And nice post. Thanks, i would do it more and put more effort into them but sometimes the juice isn't worth the squeeze...the crickets. Like with most calls in football its situation and personnel dependent. Cover 1 robber is a common defense that's in every defenses arsenal. I think its a balanced call, provided your LOLB can jam/cover the oppositions TE or its called in situations where the TE isn't gonna beat you. Not to get deep into the weeds but imagine Robinson, who is very good in coverage, playing the S instead of Trent and using Riley and Compton as the M and Mo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftech Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Yeah, I'm also waiting to hear back from you as well as it relates to this being a workable scheme with our current iteration of players. What do you perceive our players weaknesses or strengths to run this? What type of players will Scot need to bring on board to run Barry's system? HTTR! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmiii Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Just a thought, this is a very basic scheme against a very basic offensive alignment. Do you think the Chargers would post potentially insightful schemes on their public page? I don't think you should take any X & O insights from this, just a feeling for Joe's personality. Seems likable and comfortable on the camera which means absolutely nothing. The proof will be in the pudding. For those of you who think he is Haslett II, can you see Jim doing this same video? If so do you think you would get the same response. Just a thought, let's give Joe a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I was listening to one of the SD radio guys who said The SD defense goes into nickle and dime more than the typical team during passing downs. Not that its unusual. But if Barry is of that school, we need to add some serious depth at safety and corner. And maybe in that case there is less worry about LBs who aren't great in coverage like Perry Riley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbo Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Thanks, i would do it more and put more effort into them but sometimes the juice isn't worth the squeeze...the crickets. Like with most calls in football its situation and personnel dependent. Cover 1 robber is a common defense that's in every defenses arsenal. I think its a balanced call, provided your LOLB can jam/cover the oppositions TE or its called in situations where the TE isn't gonna beat you. Not to get deep into the weeds but imagine Robinson, who is very good in coverage, playing the S instead of Trent and using Riley and Compton as the M and Mo. Pretty personnel dependent was my take. I know well the crickets thing. However, I am cursed with perseverance. I hope to **** Barry can achieve. Fwiw, many folks do read a variety of such things (detailed, complicated expositions on technical or cerebral matters) and take value (whether in agreement with specific views or not) from them, even though they don't converse about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Yeah, I think its hard to take too much from it, as I highly doubt the Chargers are going to give away any of their defensive playcalls, with the exception of basic ones. So if you were a NFL organization, and you wanted to engage fans, but didnt want to give opponents an edge, what would you do? Make a video outlining two very basic defensive plays that are common to any team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan since a Fetus Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Darrelgreenie, some of us read great posts like this, but don't get in on the discussion. I appreciate the effort that it takes to post stuff like this. I understand the crickets thing, it is part of the reason I don't make any longer posts. I have a couple of times, but usually don't get responses. It is a lot easier for people to be outraged about something they know nothing about than it is to learn and make an informed argument or discussion. I enjoy learning from people that know more than I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted January 23, 2015 Author Share Posted January 23, 2015 Just a quick point, and i'll respond more later. But,it is not my intention to present Will Wink Strong Free as the Chargers/Barry's "defense". WWSF is just one specific call out of hundreds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC9 Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Nice OP DG. I'm with you and everyone else in that this one comes down to personnel (as do most). Just looking at that, I had the same concerns with the play basically "going through" the Sam's ability to cover. Even with the FS coming from the opposite side of the field - if the Sam gets beat inside and the TE undercuts the safety he's got an easy play each time once he gets outside the opposite has passed the ILBs and Robber. The good news, is that it would take him at least 3 seconds or so to get off a good jam and through the guys watching the A/B gap in the middle of the field. So that would give your pass rush a good chance. Did the video go into who had who if the FB or the HB decide to go out into the flat? I actually really like defenses that are designed to take away the middle of the field. Make teams work the boundries. We got chewed up a ton in the seam and rarely ran robber early in the season this past year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I'm listening. I'm hoping you can turn my mind around on this guy. And i'm like Fansince.. i always read your stuff, but don't always reply,, just read and learn. i appreciate the effort. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss_Hogg Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I remember the posts in the Joe Barry thread. "WTF is Will Wink Strong Free? Is he just going to let guys run wide open on us?! GAWR!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Kev Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 DG. Just want to add my thanks to yourself and the others who delve into the more technical stuff like this. I love reading it, but usually don't comment as there's nothing I could really add to the conversation. Maybe it's not crickets you can hear, but just our dumb-ass brains trying to keep up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 DG, great OP. DG stressed it but it needs to be said again... this is only one defense in their arsenal. This defense is definitely formation/situationally dependent, but it's not an uncommon one to see. A lot of people think good defenses have to be extremely complicated in order for them to succeed. But really, a good defense just needs to: 1) Align correctly 2) Have all the cogs operate their assignment as perfectly as possible given the situation. It's really that simple. Yes, some scheming/disguising is necessary as it pertains to fooling an opposing offense, but in the end you have to run what works. This defense, in particular, given proper personnel is excellent versus the run. 8-man box is scary to run in to. But like all man concepts, it's susceptible to being beat by crossers with backs to the flats. But, when you call a cover 1 type defense, you're not particularly looking to stop a completion. You're looking for an opportunity to provide pressure, take away a specific play and rally to the ball. DC, I would assume that if the FB/HB went to the flat, the backer (Mo in the diagram) would take the back that went weak. The SS (or M, depending on what the DC is looking to accomplish) would take the back who went strong. If they went the same way, the two closest defenders would take them. So if they went strong, the SS and M would take them and the Mo would be "free". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Thanks for this. Much like the draft thread, I prefer to read and learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I remember the posts in the Joe Barry thread. "WTF is Will Wink Strong Free? Is he just going to let guys run wide open on us?! GAWR!" I remember it more as "All you have to do to beat it is throw a slant. Simple." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpage520 Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Love when we can have a good Xs and Os discussion. Great post. And I also echo the sentiments of the others. If this ends up being one of the base defenses we end up running we're going to need a SERIOUS facelift in the secondary and do some movement in the LB spots to have it truly be effective. We've seen how Riley tends to have serious issues in coverage, so our weak point will almost always be a situation where he isn't the plug (correct me if I'm wrong here). Given the positioning of the safeties I think our corners are gonna need some serious work in the discipline department to keep them from attempting to jump the route too early and getting burned considering the lack of help in the back. What exactly is the protocol if the package is a 3 WR set with no TE? Doesn't that create a serious mismatch for Murphy with little to no backup? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rskin72 Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 DG...thanks for the post(s)...there are just some threads....like this one....that I can add no value through posting other than maybe to thank the poster for their efforts to educate and explain X's and O's to the masses. I appreciate your efforts even though I may not often post a thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted January 24, 2015 Author Share Posted January 24, 2015 ... Did the video go into who had who if the FB or the HB decide to go out into the flat? Kdawg got it right... The SS, M, Mo are share the duties of covering the backs and plugging the hole. The closet of the 3 takes the 1st back that releases to their side. If another back comes releases to the same side then the M takes them. Whichever of the SS, M, Mo not occupied in covering a back plugs the hole. Its harder to explain then to show so maybe this helps... or If the backs release to opposite sides then the SS takes the 1st to his side the Mo takes the first to his then the M plugs the hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepball1 Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Schemes are somewhat important, but the real problem is that there are too many schemes and it gets so complicated some coaches make players think too much. All I know is that great defenses do one thing better than bad defenses: they get to the person with the ball faster than anybody else. If the QB has the ball success will ALWAYS depend on getting to the QB ASAP. The later...the less success. faster...more success. Its not real hard to see the football before the snap and then go after whoever has that ball. The team that gets there the fastest will have more success. And when they get there, they better know how to tackle. So all these fancy schemes are really pretty, but when you look at the 85 Bears or the Ravens Great Defenses, it is always about getting really fast to whoever touches the ball. And it doesn't matter what fancy name somebody makes up for a formation or whatever...it really boils down to getting to the ball ASAP. And for that reason....the Redskins have been losing because they have poor quality players on the field. THAT is why bringing in Scott M. is the most important acquisition of the off season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC9 Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 I know it's just one play, but I wish we would do more of this. Put numbers in the middle of the field so that EVERYONE on the field is aware of where the weaknessess in the defense are on ever play. It also give you the opportunity to focus on upgrading/coaching up the positions that are attacked more in a defense like this. Simplifying everything. I'll say it again this year, too, Baker is going to be an animal if he's only got one gap to worry about. Man. Seattle's cover 3 has weaknesses, but they play it so much and have the perfect personnel for it. They all know their assignments as well as where the weaknesses are. So when it's humming, it's humming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted January 24, 2015 Author Share Posted January 24, 2015 Yeah, I'm also waiting to hear back from you as well as it relates to this being a workable scheme with our current iteration of players. What do you perceive our players weaknesses or strengths to run this? What type of players will Scot need to bring on board to run Barry's system? HTTR! Yeah, this is workable scheme depending on the situation. The personnel question is tricky because right now its hard to know who we'll have so I had to assume and just put people where I thought they would fit best. Pressure aspect: Starting up front: Hatcher, Baker, Cofeild + Kerrigan all healthy seems like they could do some damage getting upfield in 1-gap rush situation. That is what I like best about this call as it relates to our personnel and imo one of the bigger take aways from this play call is that the Chargers/Barry liked it against both the run and the pass. This is important to me because you can get more upfield rush on 1st down playing a 1-gap as opposed to the 2-gap Okie that Haslett favored on 1st down. Now the question is how long will Hatcher and Coifed be 100% and playing on the field together? Last year that happened for 1 week? Or better yet how about if we draft Leonard Williams or Danny Shelton and the front becomes: Hatcher-Cofield-Williams or Hatcher-Shelton-Cofield? But I digress..point being is IF our front of E Hatcher- N Baker-E Cofeild + W Kerrigan are healthy on paper it looks good that you expect them to generate enough pressure to "defend" the longer developing routes IF coupled with good jams or tight initial coverage. Coverage: Outside: 2 from Hall, Amerson or Breeland. I can't remember Hall's injury but at his age its reasonable to think that he might not be what he was. But if Amerson can pull his head out of his ass and commit to tight press man on the outside with Breeland doing the same on the other side we're in decent shape there. TE/LBs: If Joe wants to be able to disguise the coverage the normal S OLB would be on the field. This could be Trent or Rak (doubtful). If its Trent he's gonna need to knock the snot our the TE at the line to prevent them from getting into their route. IF Joe isn't worrying about sub giving away the call based on the sub personnel I would have Robinson at the S covering the TE then have Riley at the M and Compton at the Mo. LBs on RBs are going to be mismatches regardless but with Compton in the line-up it gives a better shot at it then Riley. S: Ideally you want a better FS then any we had last year. (but this will be a problem for any defensive call) Looking at the roster I put Ihenacho at FS but is he going to be healthy? You could move Hall there but can he make the transition? Without bringing in outside talent (which imo we need at FS) and assuming health and ability to make the transition...FS -Hall playing middle of the field single high S and Ihenacho at SS playing the RB or playing the plugger/robber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo'sRangers Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 I know it's just one play, but I wish we would do more of this. Put numbers in the middle of the field so that EVERYONE on the field is aware of where the weaknessess in the defense are on ever play. It also give you the opportunity to focus on upgrading/coaching up the positions that are attacked more in a defense like this. Simplifying everything. I'll say it again this year, too, Baker is going to be an animal if he's only got one gap to worry about. Man. Seattle's cover 3 has weaknesses, but they play it so much and have the perfect personnel for it. They all know their assignments as well as where the weaknesses are. So when it's humming, it's humming. Let's throw Danny Selton in (one can dream) the mix, Baker, & a healthy Hatcher. That would be fun! Hail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 I love threads like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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