Bacon Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 I love threads like this. As do I. My apologies for not speaking up, but sometimes it's wisest to be quiet and let others speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
returnofthefunbunch Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Yeah, this is workable scheme depending on the situation. The personnel question is tricky because right now its hard to know who we'll have so I had to assume and just put people where I thought they would fit best. Pressure aspect: Starting up front: Hatcher, Baker, Cofeild + Kerrigan all healthy seems like they could do some damage getting upfield in 1-gap rush situation. That is what I like best about this call as it relates to our personnel and imo one of the bigger take aways from this play call is that the Chargers/Barry liked it against both the run and the pass. This is important to me because you can get more upfield rush on 1st down playing a 1-gap as opposed to the 2-gap Okie that Haslett favored on 1st down. Now the question is how long will Hatcher and Coifed be 100% and playing on the field together? Last year that happened for 1 week? Or better yet how about if we draft Leonard Williams or Danny Shelton and the front becomes: Hatcher-Cofield-Williams or Hatcher-Shelton-Cofield? But I digress..point being is IF our front o The more I think about it, the more I feel we need to upgrade the d-line/pass rush. Getting pressure is so important to any defense (especially pressure up the middle in the qb's face) Thanks for the input into these schemes guys. I too enjoy reading these insightful posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyHolt Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 I am intrigued by the aggressive approach promised by every incoming DC. In this case, presumed more 1 gap. Lets see if it lasts. I have long felt that far more often than not, its best to let defensive guys play aggressively. Play to their natural instincts, versus reading and reacting. As long as he uses a press corner as a press corner, a young aggressive tackle in 1 gap, reads his players and adjusts, keeps it simple, he should meet reasonable expectation. Do not put young mistake prone players into the position to continue to make mistakes. Do not be overly complex. Speaking of complex.... OT I would like to see the Xs and Os on all the glaring gaffes by our secondary last year. What D were we in, etc. Thanks as always to DG and others for their technical expertise, and maintaining the site with actual football content, something more than news and fan opines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Do not put young mistake prone players into the position to continue to make mistakes. Do not be overly complex. Speaking of complex.... OT I would like to see the Xs and Os on all the glaring gaffes by our secondary last year. What D were we in, etc. Thanks as always to DG and others for their technical expertise, and maintaining the site with actual football content, something more than news and fan opines. My thing with Haz and R. Morris is their inability or at least so it seemed to teach zone concepts well. Their defenses where picked apart in zone with players seemingly out of place and or slow to react, there was usually one big blown assignment in the mix that would lead to big plays -- Cooley would say in film study the players looked outright confused about their assignments and those who did get it played it robotically, allowing opponents to easily get open especially in the flat. Cover 3-zone generally spelled troubled for us. They can complain all day long about the talent but IMO learning how to play your assignments in zone is partly at least about teaching and practice. You watch Seattle they play zone smart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 My thing with Haz and R. Morris is their inability or at least so it seemed to teach zone concepts well. Their defenses where picked apart in zone with players seemingly out of place and or slow to react, there was usually one big blown assignment in the mix that would lead to big plays -- Cooley would say in film study the players looked outright confused about their assignments and those who did get it played it robotically, allowing opponents to easily get open especially in the flat. Cover 3-zone generally spelled troubled for us. They can complain all day long about the talent but IMO learning how to play your assignments in zone is partly at least about teaching and practice. You watch Seattle they play zone smart. Doesn't Seattle play Cover 2 Man Under 99% of the time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC9 Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Let's throw Danny Selton in (one can dream) the mix, Baker, & a healthy Hatcher. That would be fun! Hail Very deep fat boy draft on both sides of the ball. Everyone in the league should get better, we need to be the team that gets MUCH better. Doesn't Seattle play Cover 2 Man Under 99% of the time? Seattle plays a very tight cover 3 most of the time. Chancellor is almost always down in the box. Thomas is almost always deep. So it's either man free with a robber or Cover 3. EDIT: And for me, this is why I never really "challenge" Sherman to follow the X WR around. Why should he follow around the X when they are almost always in a zone? That secondary is obviously comfortable with the communication that they have with each other from where they line up. Why not leave it there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2014/1/29/5355360/super-bowl-xlviii-seahawks-defense-richard-sherman-earl-thomas-covering-peyton-manning Example 3: Four down nickel look, mixed man/zone coverage In this case, you see man on Sherman's side, zone on Maxwell's, nickel in man, and Chancellor lined up in man against Julius Thomas, for instance. This could easily be K.J. Wright switching with Chancellor, as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyHolt Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 .... You watch Seattle they play zone smart. I think we can also see Seattle coaching, smart. By calling their best defense, early and often. tight cover 3 Calling the same defense very often, not only plays to the defenses strengths, but also almost completely eliminates the mistakes in blown coverages, that we saw from Haslett whose priority was trying to confuse QBs. I am hoping Barry calls a handful of good all situation defenses that fit his players, that they know inside out, frequently. Like Will Wonka up above. KISS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Very deep fat boy draft on both sides of the ball. Everyone in the league should get better, we need to be the team that gets MUCH better. Seattle plays a very tight cover 3 most of the time. Chancellor is almost always down in the box. Thomas is almost always deep. So it's either man free with a robber or Cover 3. EDIT: And for me, this is why I never really "challenge" Sherman to follow the X WR around. Why should he follow around the X when they are almost always in a zone? That secondary is obviously comfortable with the communication that they have with each other from where they line up. Why not leave it there? Cool, thanks for the correction. I thought I had heard that somewhere, but must've confused it with another team. Found this which is pretty cool. Cover 3: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2047445-nfl-101-introducing-the-basics-of-cover-3 Cover 1: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2032934-nfl-101-introducing-the-basics-of-cover-1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC9 Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Cool, thanks for the correction. I thought I had heard that somewhere, but must've confused it with another team. Found this which is pretty cool. Cover 3: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2047445-nfl-101-introducing-the-basics-of-cover-3 Cover 1: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2032934-nfl-101-introducing-the-basics-of-cover-1 Seattle normally runs a Cover 3 Press, so use the principles of that report and add a "bump and bail (out into your zone)" when doing so. The bump gives the d-line that extra second to get to the QB while also throwing the timing of the play off for the offense. Perfect if you have long cornerbacks who can cover and long athletic LBs who can do the same. It's even harder when you have the best ball hawking FS in the game and a sledgehammer to patrol the middle. Front four aren't bad either. (Personnel). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted January 25, 2015 Author Share Posted January 25, 2015 I was listening to one of the SD radio guys who said The SD defense goes into nickle and dime more than the typical team during passing downs. Not that its unusual. But if Barry is of that school, we need to add some serious depth at safety and corner. And maybe in that case there is less worry about LBs who aren't great in coverage like Perry Riley. GP, I meant to respond to this earlier. Barry's reported affinity for sub package defenses imho is a welcome departure from Jim Haslett who seemed to like his base personnel to a fault. Haslett played imo a curious amount of base personnel in response to 3 WRs. And given the stuggles for TE vs LBs a remedy could have been to put a DB on the TE as opposed to the LB. Sure we could argue which DB is worthy. But until/unless they try Trenton Robinson or Akeem Davis or Phillip Thomas on TE how would they know? In a known passing down or even in 50/50 situation protecting the pass/playing coverage as opposed to playing run would make sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 But until/unless they try Trenton Robinson or Akeem Davis or Phillip Thomas on TE how would they know? In a known passing down or even in 50/50 situation protecting the pass/playing coverage as opposed to playing run would make sense to me. Seems like Haslett's drill (and he has expressed it in interviews or others have said it who know him well) is to make the opposing team one dimensional, and that most of the time meant stopping the run and was willing to take chances with the passing game. Hence perhaps his aversion to playing a lot of nickle-dime -- he didn't want to gashed on the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Blaster Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 I just want to reiterate, and I know DG and KDawg addressed this, but this is just one call that is Day 1 install. This is a play that would be in the playbook each week, but you'll only see it 1-2% of the plays next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted January 26, 2015 Author Share Posted January 26, 2015 What exactly is the protocol if the package is a 3 WR set with no TE? Doesn't that create a serious mismatch for Murphy with little to no backup? To maintain the same defense call/concept then the defense would sub to match the defense. If the TE goes out and a WR comes in the defense could sub out Murphy and bring in a CB (Hall/Minifield whomever) The defense in this thread is basically Cover-1 man with a robber vs base personnel. To keep a Cover-1 man + robber concept vs 3 wide could like this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veretax Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 I highly doubt the chargers were that worried about this being posted. As someone said, this is just one possible 'scheme' they could use for a certain personnel set. Also, schemes are irrelevant if the players can't run the scheme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Blaster Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 I highly doubt the chargers were that worried about this being posted. As someone said, this is just one possible 'scheme' they could use for a certain personnel set. Also, schemes are irrelevant if the players can't run the scheme. I think you are referring to my post. This is a Day 1 install that every team has. It is about as basic as it comes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasRoane Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Just a thought, this is a very basic scheme against a very basic offensive alignment. Do you think the Chargers would post potentially insightful schemes on their public page? I don't think you should take any X & O insights from this, just a feeling for Joe's personality There really aren't many brand new coverages out there. Hell, a lot of this stuff can be seen being run by Pettibone. Typically, teams will match their coverage to the opponents formations. Hence the reason a lot of offenses try to go no huddle with a diverse personnel group so they can keep defenses from bringing the right players to match up. So most teams will run the full menu of coverages that other NFL teams run. Unless a coverage has been neutralized such as the Tampa 2 by teams with an athletic TE that is a match up nightmare for a LB. What separates the good defenses from the bad are basically three things. 1. Alignment. Every player has certain landmarks for pass responsibility and alignment (or fits) vs a running play. 2. Communication. Very, very important for all the DB's to be on the same page. The offense will shift and motion to try to confuse responsibilities. EVERY player must understand what the call is and what is expected of him. 3. Deception. This is really more for a veteran DB. Where a lot of interceptions come is when a wily DB baits a QB into thinking he has an open receiver only to find out too late that he's been duped into thinking he was seeing one coverage and then having it changed on him post-snap. (This is Kirk Cousins nemesis) A good secondary doesn't have to be made up of all Superstars. Teamwork is far more important and a good DB coach can help tremendously. So a very basic scheme if executed properly is very effective. I had a great opportunity to learn from Bob Shoop who is the current DC at Penn State. He has done a phenomenal job at schools such as William & Mary (they went from being ranked in the 100's to top 5 in the country), Vanderbilt and now is doing a great job at Penn State. He emphasized how important it is just to simply get guys lined up properly. Case in point, if Amerson was where he was supposed to be in Cover 3 vs the Colts he had an easy pass defended or an Int. As to whether or not the Chargers really care what schemes are posted up I highly doubt they'd take it down because they don't want an opponent to see what they're doing. More than likely it's because he's no longer on the staff. If you go to a Nike Coach of the Year clinic you'll be amazed at how open coaches are with their schemes and techniques. Football coaches love to talk football and they don't really care about hiding things. Because all they need to do is watch film and see what you're doing anyway. There aren't many secrets. When you see a new tweak or scheme then you can bet your @ss it will be copied. And the originator won't care much. That's flattery. What will make Joe Barry an effective DC for the Redskins is not what he knows but what he can get his players to understand and execute. That is the mystery behind the effectiveness of Coach K. Granted, the McDonald's All Americans don't hurt but the guy won at Army! So he can coach. The difference between the great ones is their ability to break down their schemes and ideas in a clear, concise manner so that ALL of their players can grasp what's expected of them. Hopefully, Barry is that kind of coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasRoane Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 My thing with Haz and R. Morris is their inability or at least so it seemed to teach zone concepts well. Their defenses where picked apart in zone with players seemingly out of place and or slow to react, there was usually one big blown assignment in the mix that would lead to big plays -- Cooley would say in film study the players looked outright confused about their assignments and those who did get it played it robotically, allowing opponents to easily get open especially in the flat. Cover 3-zone generally spelled troubled for us. They can complain all day long about the talent but IMO learning how to play your assignments in zone is partly at least about teaching and practice. You watch Seattle they play zone smart. The thing you have to drill into your players heads when playing zone is DON'T COVER GRASS!!! With my defense we always teach them that it's like playing basketball. You never let a cutter come thru untouched. If you have a player running thru your zone then carry him (run side by side) to your team mate in the next zone. Too often when the Redskins went zone they'd just be standing there. The receivers would find a hole and make an easy catch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zCommander Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Darrelgreenie, some of us read great posts like this, but don't get in on the discussion. I appreciate the effort that it takes to post stuff like this. I understand the crickets thing, it is part of the reason I don't make any longer posts. I have a couple of times, but usually don't get responses. It is a lot easier for people to be outraged about something they know nothing about than it is to learn and make an informed argument or discussion. I enjoy learning from people that know more than I do. I will add to this by saying that I now know hell of a lot more about X and O then I ever did before joining ES. There are really smart cookies on this board. I am very glad and appreciate all the efforts these guys and gals put into their posts - they don't have to as they are not getting paid to do so. Passion. That is all that is needed sometimes. Thank you for all the hard work!!! HTTR! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSO Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 The thing you have to drill into your players heads when playing zone is DON'T COVER GRASS!!! With my defense we always teach them that it's like playing basketball. You never let a cutter come thru untouched. If you have a player running thru your zone then carry him (run side by side) to your team mate in the next zone. Too often when the Redskins went zone they'd just be standing there. The receivers would find a hole and make an easy catch. It really is something, especially with our LBers. They improved in this area a little bit this past season, but they were so awful at it under Haslett it was ridiculous. I wonder, however, if it was because they weren't being taught to properly "match" their zone coverage and were just "spot-dropping", which is pretty old school zone technique from what I've read... or if it was because they couldn't properly read the QBs keys? It seems like, when they would drop into their zones, they'd be looking straight at the QB but rarely had any movement before the ball was thrown indicating that they're not reading the keys properly. No "off-arm" read or reading his eyes... I think Olivadotti really helped with that this year, though. I personally think coverage Linebacker is as big of a need as anything else on our defense, including the line and Safety. I like Keenan in coverage, but that's it. If it's true, however, that Barry likes to get out of his base formation often, that's already a positive for us in terms of coverage. I just hope that doesn't ruin our run defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 I don't think the run D was good enough to worry about that, tso. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redskins Reparations Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Per Rotoworld: Redskins hired ex-Giants DC Perry Fewell as DBs coach. Fewell was also a candidate for the 49ers' defensive-backs job. Fewell has been coordinating defenses or coaching defensive backs in the NFL since 1998. He's a nice addition to DC Joe Barry's staff, especially since Barry himself was such an underwhelming hire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asoccerplayer99 Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 ... TE/LBs: If Joe wants to be able to disguise the coverage the normal S OLB would be on the field. This could be Trent or Rak (doubtful). If its Trent he's gonna need to knock the snot our the TE at the line to prevent them from getting into their route. IF Joe isn't worrying about sub giving away the call based on the sub personnel I would have Robinson at the S covering the TE then have Riley at the M and Compton at the Mo. LBs on RBs are going to be mismatches regardless but with Compton in the line-up it gives a better shot at it then Riley. ... X's and O's question here- say you're the OC or quarterback, and the substitution gives away the defensive call. What route concept/play do you call to beat this robber defense? Verticals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasRoane Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 X's and O's question here- say you're the OC or quarterback, and the substitution gives away the defensive call. What route concept/play do you call to beat this robber defense? Verticals? Hope you don't mind if I jump in here DG. Everything of course depends on Down and Distance. If we have a 1st and 10 or a second and medium then I'd run some play action to hold the Robber, run verticals up both sidelines to clear and then have an inside receiver (usually a TE, flexed TE, or Slot player) running a crosser. A crosser is a route where the receiver will get behind LB's and cross to the opposite sideline. Usually somewhere between 10 - 15 yards in depth. Now, if you have a 3rd and long then you're probably not going to see a lot of Robber coverage. But if you do then you can run the Sail concept. Where the outside receiver is running a vertical and the inside receiver runs a deep out right behind him. Should be a timing route and you want to get a good stem out of the inside receiver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted January 27, 2015 Author Share Posted January 27, 2015 X's and O's question here- say you're the OC or quarterback, and the substitution gives away the defensive call. What route concept/play do you call to beat this robber defense? Verticals? - How to attack it Outside on timing routes play action with deep routes crossing routes to the outside RB Back routes on the linebackers create mismatches with the TE running option (“read”) routes stay shallow with routes catch the ball short and run long crossing routes (“mesh”) with the wide receivers TE in the alley fades to the wide receivers running plays coverage away from FS by “looking off” - See more at: http://smartfootball.com/passing/attacking-coverages-in-the-passing-game#sthash.uNMHASBI.dpuf[/size][/background] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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