Moving Towards our Future Front Office and Coaching Hires. All the Way to the Water Boy - Adam Peters Hired as GM! The Mighty Quinn is HC Kliff Kingsbury as OC. Joe Whitt jr at DC.

[ntotoro]

1 minute ago, SoCalSkins said:

At this point anyone we pick is settling. There is no way to spin it. 

 

I don't feel it's an overreaction or over-emotional to say that at all. They got caught out in a numbers game with a much higher number of HC openings than you normally see and weren't adequately prepared. Whether Peters just hadn't been around long enough or whatever... the reasons don't matter. If they come out and say "Quinn (or whomever) was the guy we wanted all this time," I find it exceptionally difficult to believe that.

[Curtisp5286]

39 minutes ago, Jericho said:

This team has done way more interviews than anyone.

Not true.  Interviewed 7 people.  Pretty normal.

[KDawg]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

 

He turned BOTH teams down.  He interviewed with Seattle the night before.  I listened to a Seattle reporter the morning Johnson bowed out swaying he believes Johnsonj was Seattle'as front runner.  I posted that then. 

 

Not once did I say and ditto some others the sour grapes is about turning this team down.    It's about going through this dance twice.  Puling out twice.  And not telling this team until they were in mid air in Detriot.

 

Some here said we are out of line to have a beef with any of that.  But if so, put some FO and scouts in that pile then too because according to Standig is was a hot topic iun the Senior Bowl and everyone he talked to at that event thought Johnson's move with unprofessional and a bad look.

 

It's ok for you to feel differently.  But its clearly the ones who criticized it aren't some kooks from Mars as to our position. 

 

We disagree. 

 

I think the narrative changed because he turned us down (him turning down Seattle didn't make a difference for this convo.)

 

Had he accepted an offer here no one would be saying a negative word about the guy. But now, because he turned us down (and was unprofessional about it) he's a bad candidate? He decided he wanted to stay in Detroit. No harm in my eyes. Could have been handled better. But none of that makes him a lame duck. 

[MartinC]

1 minute ago, Going Commando said:

 

I wouldn't want us to force any coaches on the new HC either.  I'm not sure how set in stone the staffing plans of potential candidates are though.  Remember when Rivera was hired?  He interviewed Kevin O'Connell for the OC job before going with Scott Turner.  I could see Bieniemy getting a chance to sell himself to the new regime.

 

Fair. I was one pushing for O’Connell to be retained back then, though with hindsight I’m not sure he would have stayed anyway.

[Hitman#21]

I think I was vindicated that Ben was the guy hence 48 hours later and no other movement. They were stunned by this..

[Curtisp5286]

4 minutes ago, ntotoro said:

 

I don't feel it's an overreaction or over-emotional to say that at all. They got caught out in a numbers game with a much higher number of HC openings than you normally see and weren't adequately prepared. Whether Peters just hadn't been around long enough or whatever... the reasons don't matter. If they come out and say "Quinn (or whomever) was the guy we wanted all this time," I find it exceptionally difficult to believe that.

Agree, but I’m not really convinced it’s because they were unprepared.  I think they were trying to get Johnson, then Macdonald, but weren’t able to get either.

 

I’d expect that they now pick one of the 3 remaining guys that they have identified as candidates.

[NickyJ]

Just now, KDawg said:

 

We disagree. 

 

I think the narrative changed because he turned us down (him turning down Seattle didn't make a difference for this convo.)

 

Had he accepted an offer here no one would be saying a negative word about the guy. But now, because he turned us down (and was unprofessional about it) he's a bad candidate? He decided he wanted to stay in Detroit. No harm in my eyes. Could have been handled better. But none of that makes him a lame duck. 

If he had accepted, it would mean that he didn't make his final decision while people courting him at an agreed time are in the middle of their flight to get there. Nobody is criticizing his dealings with Seattle because he didn't cancel them in the middle of their flight.

 

Literally all he had to do was tell them before the flight, or have the courtesy to not cancel their appointment and pretend to listen to their pitch, THEN turn it down. Of course he doesn't have to. There's a lot of etiquette and courtesy that we don't have to do. But it does leave an impression of how he communicates his decisions.

[ntotoro]

Just now, Curtisp5286 said:

Agree, but I’m not really convinced it’s because they were unprepared.  I think they were trying to get Johnson, then Macdonald, but weren’t able to get either.

 

I’d expect that they now pick one of the 3 remaining guys that they have identified as candidates.

 

...and try to pass that off as their #1 choice all this time.

[VRIEL1]

30 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

It’s in his thread. They had a deal principal in place on a 5 year deal. After Tepper gave a 6 year deal with the panthers,  Ben’s side asked for 6 years and also asked for roster control of offensive players. Meaning Peters was not the decision make on who made the 53 on offense. They hit an impasse and Johnson subsequently cancelled when they were in the air to meet with him in person. 
 

Similarly they tried to put a deal together for Macdonald and he turned them down and told them he’s taking the Seattle job.

 

All these guys have egos and most don’t want to be second choice if they have other options. With Seattle going up for sale in a year it doesn’t seem like it will be as stable as here but Macdonald preferred them.
 

Jonson seemingly overplayed his leverage and Peters was unwilling to cede power so early into his tenure. They placed too many eggs in that basket. It is what it is at this point but it’s a cluster and no one on the Commanders side looks good. 

I would like to think there would be wiggle room to negotiate. We've got analytic guys that essentially would be a waste of time if 1 individual has full control. How about the HC gives his 2 or 3 picks at positions he's looking at and the analytic guys pick the best of those individuals? Basically the coach feels he has some control and analytics can work their magic. 

[mhd24]

9 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

At this point anyone we pick is settling. There is no way to spin it. 
 

Griese might end up being really good. However the comparisons to Zorn would be pretty fitting. They will have interviewed all the top candidates, only to be spurned by their top choices and settle on a QB coach. 

 

If we hire Belichek, then it isn't settling.  It would be a huge upgrade over Quinn.  Belichek destroyed him in clock management alone in the Super Bowl.  Heck, McCarthy has been chastised by the Cowboys fans about his clock management issues.  Quinn didn't help there.

[srtman04]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

 

We disagree. 

 

I think the narrative changed because he turned us down (him turning down Seattle didn't make a difference for this convo.)

 

Had he accepted an offer here no one would be saying a negative word about the guy. But now, because he turned us down (and was unprofessional about it) he's a bad candidate? He decided he wanted to stay in Detroit. No harm in my eyes. Could have been handled better. But none of that makes him a lame duck. 

 

I think making his decision to stay in Detroit while Washington FO was in the air is just a tacky and bad look, if from the optics point of view alone.   That to me shows he isn't ready to be a head coach and it could've also saved us from potential heartache.  

[sinews]

If they announce the Quinn hire then they'll probably try and sell us, convincingly or not, that he was "at the top of their list and had all the qualities we were looking for," instead of saying the top candidate or whatever. And according to Keim, it certainly seems like he was always in the running as a serious, top candidate (compared to, say, Aaron Glenn). 

 

I could see an announcement today or tomorrow and then they hold off on a press conference until after the SB (I take it the league doesn't like conflicting NFL events during the week of). So a press conference directly after the SB might give them time to line up OC/offensive staff, because we all know that's going to be paramount and needs to be addressed as soon as the new HC comes in. Yeah, it's kind of a mess, certainly not ideal, but these situations can often cause panic and then even graver, reactionary mistakes. The languid pace, at least it seems to me, tells me they're not panicking and really are looking for who has the best cluster of leadership traits. This hire is more about stability and collaboration with the GM to build something, and that's been stated many times. 

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, NickyJ said:

If he had accepted, it would mean that he didn't make his final decision while people courting him at an agreed time are in the middle of their flight to get there. Nobody is criticizing his dealings with Seattle because he didn't cancel them in the middle of their flight.

 

Literally all he had to do was tell them before the flight, or have the courtesy to not cancel their appointment and pretend to listen to their pitch, THEN turn it down. Of course he doesn't have to. There's a lot of etiquette and courtesy that we don't have to do. But it does leave an impression of how he communicates his decisions.

 

I haven't disagreed with that, have I?

 

But changing his mind is hardly disqualifying as a head coach candidate.

 

It's sour grapes.

 

Now, his behavior WILL cost him in the future. But that decision was only made after he turned us down. 

 

Event + Reaction = Outcome

[SoCalSkins]

1 minute ago, MartinC said:

 

Fair. I was one pushing for O’Connell to be retained back then, though with hindsight I’m not sure he would have stayed anyway.

I remember how much you loved KOC. 
 

If he had stayed, he probably would have failed with what we had. At that point he didn’t have a choice to leave because he was under contract. Ron wanted Scott regardless. KOC’s career trajectory would have been much different. But at that time so many were claiming he will be the next Mcvay. That was only true if he left here. If he had stayed he would be the next Scott Turner.

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, srtman04 said:

 

I think making his decision to stay in Detroit while Washington FO was in the air is just a tacky and bad look, if from the optics point of view alone.   That to me shows he isn't ready to be a head coach and it could've also saved us from potential heartache.  

To me it tells me he didn't get Seattle and wasn't interested in Washington and made his decision while the regime was in the air.

 

They were going to Detroit anyways.

 

Yes, it's a bad look. Yes, it'll cost him. Yes it was stupid. But that doesn't change his qualification as a HC. He was qualified or he wasn't from the start.

[lavar1156]

 

[SoCalSkins]

3 minutes ago, mhd24 said:

 

If we hire Belichek, then it isn't settling.  It would be a huge upgrade over Quinn.  Belichek destroyed him in clock management alone in the Super Bowl.  Heck, McCarthy has been chastised by the Cowboys fans about his clock management issues.  Quinn didn't help there.

Settling by definition is not being able to acquire your top choices and instead acquiring what’s left. Anyone we hire now is settling. Period. 

[Redwards]

51 minutes ago, Jericho said:

 

It's hard for me to really buy that they love Quinn that much per some reports. If they really did, once Johnson was out, Quinn should have been signed within 24 hours. It's what pretty much every other NFL team would have done. It's really looking like Johnson was Plan A, B, and C. And there's not a clear Plan D. This team has done way more interviews than anyone. Unless it's going to hire someone way out of left field, they just need to pick one of the 3 left standing. And preferably today.

Agree 100%.  

 

Worst of all, it screams that they are not really enamored with ANY of the other coaches.  So, the guy we eventually end up with will be a guy they have settled/talked themselves into.  Which, is NOT good.   This is why I now strongly suspect that the new HC is going to be a 1 contract coach.  I don't believe we're now going to hire "The Answer" at HC.  

 

So, I'm actively trying to switch into OC mode.  Is there one out there still available that is really, really good?  One that can actually be an asset to groom our new QB?  As Keim stated, if we don't nail this and the other staff hires, it's not going to work.  Not only do we stand the chance of ruining the upcoming QB, but we'll also be right back into the HC search once more in a few years.  I don't think Harris will be prepared for the backlash he's going to get from fans should this occur.  

[NickyJ]

7 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

I haven't disagreed with that, have I?

 

But changing his mind is hardly disqualifying as a head coach candidate.

 

It's sour grapes.

 

Now, his behavior WILL cost him in the future. But that decision was only made after he turned us down. 

 

Event + Reaction = Outcome

My mistake. I haven't seen SIP knock on Johnson's coaching ability, so I thought what you disagreed with him about was that Johnson's handling of his interview appointment was done in poor taste.

Edited February 1 by NickyJ

[oraphus]

We probably dodged a bullet with Ben Johnson. He is obviously not secure in his ability to run a team as a HC.. He is the next Josh Mcdaniels

[Skinsinparadise]

18 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

We disagree. 

 

I think the narrative changed because he turned us down (him turning down Seattle didn't make a difference for this convo.)

 

Had he accepted an offer here no one would be saying a negative word about the guy. But now, because he turned us down (and was unprofessional about it) he's a bad candidate? He decided he wanted to stay in Detroit. No harm in my eyes. Could have been handled better. But none of that makes him a lame duck. 

 

I know how I feel.  So you can't disagree with a different take about how I truly feel.  So if your point is that's how others expressed it here.  I don't recall that.  The posts I recall were similar to mine but I wasn't paying uber attention to every post.  So if people were posting we don't like him because he rejected us, OK, cool.   But I don't really get it because it wasn't just this team. 

 

As for me, there was some smoke about Ben and his leadership skills.  Keim flat out said that there was a question if he can command a room.  He also said he heard he was working on his "people skills".  I know judging by some posts here that some don't give a rats behind about personality and leadership and believe that a HC is basically a coordinator with a bigger title.   But I wasn't in that group. 

 

I flat out said my concern for Johnson was how would he come across in his interviews versus more dynamic personalities.  I made the point BEFORE not after all of this went down.  Some discussion here from some others on the same point.  And the way he played this out made those doubts stronger.  Not because this team was spurned.  But because of how it went down two years in a row.

 

Hearing from Schefter suggesting don't count on Johnson as the dude in Washington among others saying the same before it went down and said so from the perspective of Washington having other targets they are very interested in.  I didn't feel this was 100%.  Being saying that for weeks.  So i personally wasn't shocked.  I was braced for it.  And then reading the Breer comments about hearing Johnson didn't exactly kill his zoom interview with this team, i found interesting too.

 

The more information I got on someone yes it influences me.  Some don't see Johnson's behavior as a new data point, you apparently are one of those people.  That's cool.  Some do see it as a data point, and i am one of those people.   That's where we disagree.  

Edited February 1 by Skinsinparadise

[Curtisp5286]

9 minutes ago, ntotoro said:

 

...and try to pass that off as their #1 choice all this time.

Whatever, you do the best you can.  These are all big boys.  I’m sure they don’t all believe that they are the number 1 choice for everything all the time.  They aren’t dumb, just like the fans aren’t (for the most part).

[MartinC]

6 minutes ago, KDawg said:

To me it tells me he didn't get Seattle and wasn't interested in Washington and made his decision while the regime was in the air.

 

They were going to Detroit anyways.

 

Yes, it's a bad look. Yes, it'll cost him. Yes it was stupid. But that doesn't change his qualification as a HC. He was qualified or he wasn't from the start.

 

This is my position as well. He was and is still a very strong HC candidate - but the way he handled his decision to stay in Detroit was clumsy at best and that will be something that hangs with him on the next go around.

[veteranskinsfan]

I remember many years ago my dad got a job offer to work in Alaska.  Our family pleaded with him not to move us to Alaska.

It was going to be a great job for him but he turned it down because we didn't want to go.  Family can be a factor in these

types of decisions.  I read yesterday something about Johnson discussing it with his family about leaving Detroit.

[UK Skins]

Isn't Detroit supposed to be a ****hole though?