CousinsCowgirl84 Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 8 minutes ago, Corcaigh said: Who is stating that October 7 would be Palestinian Independence Day? If it is what leads the the words recognition of the Palestinian state why wouldn’t it be? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 20 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: If it is what leads the the words recognition of the Palestinian state why wouldn’t it be? In recent history, you could pick the date Israel targeted the aid convoy. Or the assault of Raffa. Or the future date when Netanyahu dies. Finding a solution to fix the cluster**** that is this particular part of the Middle East does not have to be seen solely as rewarding Hamas. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 24 minutes ago, Corcaigh said: In recent history, you could pick the date Israel targeted the aid convoy. Or the assault of Raffa. Or the future date when Netanyahu dies. Finding a solution to fix the cluster**** that is this particular part of the Middle East does not have to be seen solely as rewarding Hamas. very optimistic of you to say they wouldn’t choose the date they killed the most Jews as the day to celebrate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 Your 60s soap opera memes have no meaning to this immigrant. Palestine and Gaza is not Hamas. An entire generation in Gaza had never seen as Israeli tank until Hamas did October 7. The US and the rest of the world would not be providing the aid they are if Hamas ran Gaza. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 19 minutes ago, Corcaigh said: The US and the rest of the world would not be providing the aid they are if Hamas ran Gaza. Yes they would. Hamas does run Gaza. I don’t see how the two should be related. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 (edited) Avoiding a future where Oct 7th and Hamas become important is easy. Get serious in conversations with the PA over creating a Palestinian state. If the only way to create a Palestinian state is through violence, then if the Palestinians ever get a state then the day will probably be day associated with violence. The key is then to create a path to a viable independent state through an organization that isn't (openly) supporting violence. Edited May 12 by PeterMP 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsmarydu Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 (edited) 2 hours ago, TradeTheBeal! said: Use that noodle, coeds! As an aside, Morehouse Men are protesting Joe coming here for the their commencement address, Of course, the Spelman Girls are in solitude. Edited May 12 by skinsmarydu 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 Israel's Independence Day reads like the day it was formally established as an official sovereign state. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independence_Day_(Israel) They give it flexibility to keep it from falling in the sabbath...point I see here is there's no need to overthink this. The day Palestine is formally recognized as a separate sovereign state (if that ever happens) would be a more then appropriate choice for Independence Day. People talking about October 7th are jus starting ****... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 14 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: Israel's Independence Day reads like the day it was formally established as an official sovereign state. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independence_Day_(Israel) They give it flexibility to keep it from falling in the sabbath...point I see here is there's no need to overthink this. The day Palestine is formally recognized as a separate sovereign state (if that ever happens) would be a more then appropriate choice for Independence Day. People talking about October 7th are jus starting ****... I did a little looking. Most countries that are born of violence celebrate some day other than an important violent day as their national holiday. (Though there are exceptions e.g. Bastille day) It certainly is possible that the Palestinians would celebrate Oct. 7th, especially if Hamas ends up being the entity that brings them a state. But there is plenty of precedent for them to pick something else (a day when the final documents are signed or they have a "national" election, etc.) We celebrate the signing of the Declaration of Independence. Not the battles of Concord and Lexington or the Battle of Trenton, or the Battle of Yorktown. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 17 minutes ago, PeterMP said: I did a little looking. Most countries that are born of violence celebrate some day other than an important violent day as their national holiday. (Though there are exceptions e.g. Bastille day) It certainly is possible that the Palestinians would celebrate Oct. 7th, especially if Hamas ends up being the entity that brings them a state. But there is plenty of precedent for them to pick something else (a day when the final documents are signed or they have a "national" election, etc.) We celebrate the signing of the Declaration of Independence. Not the battles of Concord and Lexington or the Battle of Trenton, or the Battle of Yorktown. Glad you brought up ours. That was the day we "said" we were independent by finally signing the declaration before sending it to the King. We still had to earn it the hard way 6-8 years later (Treaty of Paris was technically two years after Battle of Yorktown). Had to follow up on me hearing many thought July 2nd should be instead of the 4th (since thats when the decision to formally declare Independence was voted on amd "yes" won). The reasons as to "why" we declared Independence was signed on the the 4th but way I'm reading it (anyone can correct me) the King of England at the time didn't even get the copy sent to him directly until August that same year (and we took names off the copy we sent him to shrink his official list of people to kill). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 I think some of you are being too literal. I took it more as "we can't let events like Oct 7th be a manner in which places earn their independence." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokerPacker Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 1 minute ago, TheGreatBuzz said: I think some of you are being too literal. I took it more as "we can't let events like Oct 7th be a manner in which places earn their independence." There needs to be a converse, though. What should desperate, oppressed people do to earn their independence? Something that will actually work. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 12 minutes ago, PokerPacker said: There needs to be a converse, though. What should desperate, oppressed people do to earn their independence? Something that will actually work. To be clear, are you defending the actions that day? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 47 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said: I think some of you are being too literal. I took it more as "we can't let events like Oct 7th be a manner in which places earn their independence." Is that even a serious proposal or just something far-right came up with out of thin air to get mad at and speak into existence to get other people mad? That shouldn't be the date, but I'm not sure we should even entertain this debate if it's specifically designed to be chum thrown in the water. Swim away. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokerPacker Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 3 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said: To be clear, are you defending the actions that day? I'm saying that desperate people do desperate things. Telling them "don't do that" doesn't help if there's no viable alternative given. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 Well, I’ll be darned…we fixed it! All we need now is some intrepid campus lefties to head over this summer and show these sweethearts how to do a constitutional convention, brotherly love-style! #peacetrain #allaboard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 7 hours ago, PokerPacker said: I'm saying that desperate people do desperate things. Telling them "don't do that" doesn't help if there's no viable alternative given. You didn't answer my question. A simple yes or no will do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 (edited) 10 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said: I think some of you are being too literal. I took it more as "we can't let events like Oct 7th be a manner in which places earn their independence." It isn't like Hamas invented terrorism or taking hostages. And historically some times it works and some times it doesn't. The long term impacts on the people/society tend to be minimal. And it isn't like some other group in a similar situation isn't going to try because it didn't work for Hamas (if it doesn't). Now in the context of us ("WE"), what are we supposed to do? Let Israel commit something akin to genocide and kill everybody in Gaza and then invade Lebanon so that Oct 7th doesn't become an important date in the Palestinians winning independence? Is that the argument? How do you get from here to there being a Palestinian state without Oct. 7 being important? Israel could have prevented this by sitting down with the PA and others and negotiating the creation of a Palestinian state 20 years ago. And at some level if they did so today, they'd at leas minimize the effects of Oct. 7, but even if they do, some will always point to Oct. 7 as being the thing that drove them to the table. (Realistically, it is a dumb talking point because it doesn't give any clear options. It is a great sounding statement, but what does it practically mean. Really, I suspect whoever started that idea is against the creation of a Palestinian state.) Edited May 12 by PeterMP 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokerPacker Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 5 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said: You didn't answer my question. A simple yes or no will do 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ixcuincle Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 😵💫 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergasun Posted May 13 Author Share Posted May 13 (edited) I would have asked, "Is Israel really at risk of losing this war?" It's insane to frame this as "the Jewish state is at risk." This is not an existential threat war. Recently the UN general assembly voted to allow Palestinian state full membership. Israel responded by sending up their delegate to compare Palestine to Nazi Germany and shred the UN charter. Edit: it is not full membership, which requires security council approval. The US is blocking full membership. The recent vote was for certain rights and priviledges. Edited May 13 by Fergasun Clarification 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 1 hour ago, Fergasun said: I would have asked, "Is Israel really at risk of losing this war?" It's insane to frame this as "the Jewish state is at risk." This is not an existential threat war. It’s not predictable what happens in that region if it becomes clear US support is dwindling. how others react, how Israel deals with it, what the US would and wouldn’t do, is all guessing. it’s certainly plausible that it could be problematic for Israel. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chump Bailey Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 I shed no tears for the Palestinians. What Hamas did on Oct 7th is absolutely beyond evil. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 (edited) 4 hours ago, Fergasun said: I would have asked, "Is Israel really at risk of losing this war?" It's insane to frame this as "the Jewish state is at risk." This is not an existential threat war. Recently the UN general assembly voted to allow Palestinian state full membership. Israel responded by sending up their delegate to compare Palestine to Nazi Germany and shred the UN charter. Edit: it is not full membership, which requires security council approval. The US is blocking full membership. The recent vote was for certain rights and priviledges. It’s the Israeli ambassador. What did we expect? I agree with Lindsay Graham. Do the job. But as soon as the job is done there isn’t a reason not to allow Palestinian statehood, though. I doubt he agrees with that. 2 hours ago, Chump Bailey said: I shed no tears for the Palestinians. What Hamas did on Oct 7th is absolutely beyond evil. Is this American privilege? Edited May 13 by CousinsCowgirl84 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ixcuincle Posted May 14 Share Posted May 14 Both sides can be **** Hamas instigated it but Israel is going overboard I just hope we can reach a truce soon I'm tired of violence 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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