2024 NFL Draft Position/Tracker - Final Pick #2

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

2 minutes ago, Skintime said:

Young was supposed to be that

I think MHJ’s probability of becoming elite quickly is a lot higher than Chase’s ever was.  Besides, you have to keep firing for this level of talent.

[Conn]

Just now, Skintime said:

Young was supposed to be that

Not to be too blunt, but…who gives a ****?
 

You never take a potentially generational player again because you got burned on someone who was supposed to be one? 
 

Also some of us were never as sold on Young as the national media and draftnik community was—I’ve been repeating this for years but bc he was seen as such a slam-dunk, he really never worked out before the draft—meaning, we never even got explosiveness measurables for Young. Things that are extremely important in determining whether an EDGE may actually be generational (as opposed to some other positions where raw athleticism isn’t always make or break).

[The Consigliere]

7 minutes ago, Conn said:

Not to be too blunt, but…who gives a ****?
 

You never take a potentially generational player again because you got burned on someone who was supposed to be one? 
 

Also some of us were never as sold on Young as the national media and draftnik community was—I’ve been repeating this for years but bc he was seen as such a slam-dunk, he really never worked out before the draft—meaning, we never even got explosiveness measurables for Young. Things that are extremely important in determining whether an EDGE may actually be generational (as opposed to some other positions where raw athleticism isn’t always make or break).

A good example or too of more "Young" types. Jadeveon Clowney was more hyped as a prospect than Young in my view (more years as a mega elite guy), never came close to his potential though he had a brief run as a Good End. Another guy was Suh, with detroit, he was as advertised as a rookie, but never became that generational Reggie White caliber talent he was rumored to be. Peaked at very good. 

 

A weird truism at this point, seemingly anyway, is that most defensive generational talents simply haven't had the impact they were advertised to bring in their various draft classes. I see most of these guys becoming good and very good players, but it's a struggle to think of a lot of mega generational superstar defensive players in recent years, good and very good yes, but not mega elite. I wonder if part of that is the league is simply far more offensively friendly than it used to be with flags/penalties etc. 

[Renegade7]

48 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I think MHJ’s probability of becoming elite quickly is a lot higher than Chase’s ever was.  

 

Eh? Really?

 

That's not how he was sold at all, ready to go. Doesn't it typically take longer for WR to adjust then DEs?

 

Quote

Besides, you have to keep firing for this level of talent.

 

This agree with this, can't get shell shocked, but should case by case. 

 

The group think on Young was so extreme it overwhelmed folks who said to be realistic in expectations or the minor few that said lets not do this, trade down and try for QB next draft.

 

It pissed me off, so I have a visceral reaction to anything that reminds me of that, it's too fresh too soon for me, speaking out loud.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Renegade7

[Skintime]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I think MHJ’s probability of becoming elite quickly is a lot higher than Chase’s ever was.  Besides, you have to keep firing for this level of talent.

Based on the same sort of analysis that was done on Chase...OK

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

16 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Eh? Really?

 

That's not how he was sold at all, ready to go. Doesn't it typically take longer for WR to adjust then DEs?

 

 

This agree with this, can't get shell shocked, but should case by case. 

 

The group think on Young was so extreme it overwhelmed folks who said to be realistic in expectations or the minor few that said lets not do this, trade down and try for QB next draft.

 

It pissed me off, so I have a visceral reaction to anything that reminds me of that, it's too fresh too soon for me, speaking out loud.

I was a sheep for Young and bit on the hype.  However, there were a few outliers that said he lacked diversity in pass rush moves, lacked discipline and was MIA against the best.  Pretty much all that panned out.  
 

I still think Harrison Jr. is a no brainer and cut from a different cloth than Chase.

[Skintime]

1 hour ago, Conn said:

Not to be too blunt, but…who gives a ****?
 

You never take a potentially generational player again because you got burned on someone who was supposed to be one? 
 

Also some of us were never as sold on Young as the national media and draftnik community was—I’ve been repeating this for years but bc he was seen as such a slam-dunk, he really never worked out before the draft—meaning, we never even got explosiveness measurables for Young. Things that are extremely important in determining whether an EDGE may actually be generational (as opposed to some other positions where raw athleticism isn’t always make or break).

No, you get a line to block for all these generational talents.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Just now, Skintime said:

Based on the same sort of analysis that was done on Chase...OK

You could say the same thing about every player in every draft.

2 minutes ago, Skintime said:

No, you get a line to block for all these generational talents.

Why can’t they address OL heavy and still draft MJH?

[Skintime]

Just now, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

You could say the same thing about every player in every draft.

Why can’t they address OL heavy and still draft MJH?

That is not making the point that you were just making. This team has many holes, none of us has any real idea of what will happen, but trading down for more picks will help get us better quicker if MJH is available.

[Warhead36]

Just because you missed on one generational type talent doesn't mean you don't keep trying. 

 

And in fairness to Young, he wasn't a complete bust. He won DROY and then had some injuries after a bad sophomore year. But he was looking pretty good this year. Agreed he didn't ultimately live up to the hype but we didn't completely screw the pooch with him.

 

At the end of the day though it won't matter because there is almost no way Harrison jr will be available at our pick. 

[zCommander]

I don't see us losing to the Jets and the Rams. We have the bye-week before the Rams game and that will give Ron sometime to "figure out" the D. So we will go 2-3 in the last 5 games. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

6 minutes ago, zCommander said:

I don't see us losing to the Jets and the Rams. We have the bye-week before the Rams game and that will give Ron sometime to "figure out" the D. So we will go 2-3 in the last 5 games. 

It’s easy to watch them get waxed by Dallas and think 4-13 is a reality and start getting excited about draft slot.  But my gut all along is exactly what you just said - this team is going to win a few more.  I’m holding out hope for 1 more, I think that’s the best we can hope for.

[Skinsinparadise]

4 hours ago, Conn said:

Not to be too blunt, but…who gives a ****?
 

You never take a potentially generational player again because you got burned on someone who was supposed to be one? 
 

Also some of us were never as sold on Young as the national media and draftnik community was—I’ve been repeating this for years but bc he was seen as such a slam-dunk, he really never worked out before the draft—meaning, we never even got explosiveness measurables for Young. Things that are extremely important in determining whether an EDGE may actually be generational (as opposed to some other positions where raw athleticism isn’t always make or break).

 

The one thing that many say are as important as ability-stats is the dude's personality as to whether said player reachs their potential.  That's why as we know these players are interviewed again and again and again.  In Chase's case, they clearly missed something on that front.

 

Chase isn't a bust.  But clearly he's missing that special ingredient to be great.  I think the red flags were evident early when he skipped every voluntary practice and he explained it by wanting to make money.  On a side note, apparently his knee is considered a problem still.  Grant shared yesterday that the Ravens were going to give Washington their 2nd rounder for Chase until they examined his medicals and then balked.  Ditto SF who was willing initially to offer more but then brought their offer down to a third after seeing the medicals.  

 

I agree with the overall point.  Was Chase billed as a special player?  Yeah.  Deservedly so?  I think yes.  But the draft doesn't come with guarantees.  Heck there are some top 5 picks that end up total busts.   Chase didn't live up to his hype.  I'd say about give or take half of top ten picks don't live up to their billing.  But to your point that shouldn't stop you from swinging for the fences.    Because when you get that Joey Bosa, Myles Garrett, Joe Burrow, Jamarr Chase, etc -- it can really elevate a roster.

 

Chris Cooley explained it well on a podcast.  This team needs an elite player or two.  Having those dudes on your roster breeds confidence in big moments in big games that permeates the whole team as to confidence. 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[dunfer]

Chase...bust or whatever was just a single pick, so yeah take the elite guy if you can get him at your pick or trade back if you dont like anyone there.

 

If "swinging for the fences" means rg3 level trade ups though....I dont think we should do that again

Edited November 29, 2023 by dunfer

[method man]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The one thing that many say are as important as ability-stats is the dude's personality as to whether said player reachs their potential.  That's why as we know these players are interviewed again and again and again.  In Chase's case, they clearly missed something on that front.

 

Chase isn't a bust.  But clearly he's missing that special ingredient to be great.  I think the red flags were evident early when he skipped every voluntary practice and he explained it by wanting to make money.  On a side note, apparently his knee is considered a problem still.  Grant shared yesterday that the Ravens were going to give Washington their 2nd rounder for Chase until they examined his medicals and then balked.  Ditto SF who was willing initially to offer more but then brought their offer down to a third after seeing the medicals.  

 

I agree with the overall point.  Was Chase billed as a special player?  Yeah.  Deservedly so?  I think yes.  But the draft doesn't come with guarantees.  Heck there are some top 5 picks that end up total busts.   Chase didn't live up to his hype.  I'd say about give or take half of top ten picks don't live up to their billing.  But to your point that shouldn't stop you from swinging for the fences.    Because when you get that Joey Bosa, Myles Garrett, Joe Burrow, Jamarr Chase, etc -- it can really elevate a roster.

 

Chris Cooley explained it well on a podcast.  This team needs an elite player or two.  Having those dudes on your roster breeds confidence in big moments in big games that permeates the whole team as to confidence. 

Yep. As I’ve been saying, Chase is likely signing a bunch of 1 year deals until the end of his career kind of like Clowney has due to his knee. The condition of his knee definitely played a role in his 5th year option not being picked up as that is guaranteed for injury

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

Jadeveon in high school was like using create a player mode, making the guy as tall and massive as possible, and then giving him all 99s.

 

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Sacks 'n' Stuff

[gooseneck]

15 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

Jadeveon in high school was like using create a player mode, making him as tall as possible, and then giving him all 99s.

 

 

I didn't see any film or him raising his hand and giving the right answer in class.

[Skinsinparadise]

6 hours ago, method man said:

Yep. As I’ve been saying, Chase is likely signing a bunch of 1 year deals until the end of his career kind of like Clowney has due to his knee. The condition of his knee definitely played a role in his 5th year option not being picked up as that is guaranteed for injury

 

Yeah seems to be a big time issue judging with what Keim and others have said as to league perception.

14 hours ago, The Consigliere said:

A good example or too of more "Young" types. Jadeveon Clowney was more hyped as a prospect than Young in my view (more years as a mega elite guy), never came close to his potential though he had a brief run as a Good End. Another guy was Suh, with detroit, he was as advertised as a rookie, but never became that generational Reggie White caliber talent he was rumored to be. Peaked at very good. 

 

A weird truism at this point, seemingly anyway, is that most defensive generational talents simply haven't had the impact they were advertised to bring in their various draft classes. I see most of these guys becoming good and very good players, but it's a struggle to think of a lot of mega generational superstar defensive players in recent years, good and very good yes, but not mega elite. I wonder if part of that is the league is simply far more offensively friendly than it used to be with flags/penalties etc. 

 

I think it's like any spot, some do, some don't.  M. Garrett and the Bosas for example have lived up to their billing.

16 hours ago, The Consigliere said:

I assumed that Detroit and the Niners would automatically get hosting duties as division winners, am I wrong about that? 

 

Good point, that's true.

[Skinsinparadise]

15 hours ago, Skintime said:

That is not making the point that you were just making. This team has many holes, none of us has any real idea of what will happen, but trading down for more picks will help get us better quicker if MJH is available.

 

I am not against trading down depends on how big of a haul is offered.  Sometimes you don't get any offer at all.  

 

I think you can argue the point either way as for this roster.  IMO a little easier to argue taking MH.

 

They already have the draft capital AND 90 plus million to address many needs.  It's not like we need to make the move to add picks and cap space.  It's already done.  You and some others are arguing they need to do it even more.  Maybe so but considering its already done, its not a desperate need to do it more.

 

But man its wild how this team doesn't do elite players.  We see this top 100 list and that top 100 list of best players, or All Pro list or whatever and we are barely represented and never in the top 25.  Rarely heck in the top 75.  I recall my wife (Giants fan) seeing Adrian Peterson in a Washington jersey for the first time and she goes to me (not sarcastically but matter of fact) its weird to see a star player in a Washington uniform, its not what they are, they don't do stars. 

 

Her saying that hit me, yeah our version of stars, aren't really stars.  We don't do elite players.  That's for other teams.  And its weird because really every other team just about has had a star in the last 20 plus years.  

 

Cooley articulated it well once lamenting that issue with this club lacking game changing players and game changing players breed confidence in the locker room.  We major in good to very good players and we don't have that many of those either.  Heck some players some of us think are even very good aren't seen that way in the league.  We rave for example about Kam Curl.  And personnel people didn't even put him in their top 25 as to best safeties in the league when ESPN did a ranking this off season.    Terry I see sometimes ranked anywhere from #8-12 in the league, I bet he drops after this year, he will be 29 next season, usually WRs start dropping off around 30. 

 

My point is why not do both when you can do both?  Get that elite playemaker AND stack the roster with the multple 2nd rounders, 3rd rounders and all that cap space.

 

A killer WR isn't a luxury (not saying you think it is) for a young developing WR.  It's as important as the O line.  And yes we can build both in an off season.   How many times have we heard the story this year about WRs not getting open and that being an issue for Sam this year.  Both Terry and Dotson have struggled for whatever reason seperating this year and the stats show that.

 

As a bonus.  You can also argue aside from the losing, the lack of star power has hurt this team as far as getting younger fans.  One thing Beckham said which I agree with is that he helped the Gaints maintain some of their fan base while they were losing because of all the national attention he got.  Younger fans (not all but some, my kids included) seem to dig stars.  We don't do stars.  Jonathan Allen isn't a star.  Some fans try to make Terry into a star.  He gets the biggest applause and billing at games but he's not a national star.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

17 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I'm sorry, I'm confused by this, maybe I'm just mis-reading it.

 

Which pick does NE have, which pick do we have, and if NE takes Harrison I don't understand the "take Harrison" part at the end...

 

The two parts of the sentence seem to be in conflict or I'm completely missing the point. Which is very possible. 

 

If NE picks 3rd and they take Harrison, then one of the QBs (Daniels, Nix, Penix) will be there.   That QB could represent a trade down opportunity.  The part I didn't clarify in that sentence is if they "don't" do so then this team can take Harrison or trade down if they can.

 

I'll be more clear here.  If we pick 4th...

 

A.  I think if NE picks 3rd there is a decent chance they take a QB.  We are hung up on Drake and Caleb but I believe we likely have another QB or 2 in the top 10 and i don't think NE will skip that party for a WR.  So in that case I am taking Harrison or trading down if I can.

 

B.  If NE does take Harrison, then a team, NO, Vegas, Tampa might want to trade up to that 4th spot so it's likely prime trading down territory.  

 

Harrison is going to make the mocks interesting.  It seems like its a hipster postion to put Marvin Harrison with some at pick #1 or #2 but i don't see it happening.  But I bet there will be a lot of discussion for months about that as a possibilty because its an entertaining thought and the idea of taking a WR over a QB elicits debate and these talking heads love debate topics like that.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

22 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

Fashanu is getting graded by all the scouts as an elite pass blocker. I've seen him graded as a 100 out of 100 in pass blocking. His run blocking isn't elite yet but its right there. I was listening to the segment on what makes a good OL on the SumerSports podcasts with an analyst and a former GM and the former GM was saying that he'd take the elite pass blocker 10 times out of 10 because of the way the league is going towards the passing game.You need to be able to protect the QB. And he's young so he's still developing. 

 

 

 

I know what you mean.  But I don't think its the "scouts" but mock drafters who aren't scouts.

 

Playing very amateur scout on my end.  I think Fashanu and Alt for that matter too are very good prospects for reasons I expressed here.  They are getting beat up on the draft thread some but speaking for myself, i am not in that camp of seeing them as lesser prospects.  I really dig both of them.

 

Fashanu has tremendous upside with freakish agility IMO and Alt is very consistent and in a good way with freakish length.  Both IMO would be really good picks.

 

And as you likely know considering how much I've whined about the O line on the QB thread, I want to improve the O line desperately.  But I never look at the draft in the frame of the first round alone.  For example, I wouldn't have trashed their last draft as harshly, if they took an O lineman in the 2nd versus taking the first O lineman in the late third (basically a 4th rounder) -- and a player they said from the jump they don't intend to start this season.

 

So essentially they did ZERO in the draft to help the 2023 O line.  And signed a couple of jags in FA and called it a day.  It was a pathetic effort from Ron IMO.  I wasn't that picky at the time.  Use one of your top two picks on the O line and sign one marquee FA and that I felt would make all the difference.  But they didn't do it, they did basically nothing.

 

If they this off season use one or both of the high 2nd rounders on the O line.  Who?  I don't know yet, maybe Patrick Paul and Beebe or whomever.  Typically there are good O line prospects in the early 2nd.  And they sign a FA like Hunt and I'd be happy.  Look if they take it a step further and draft Fashanu or Alt, I'd be happy, too.  But I am not locked in to any prospect especially if they pick top 5.

 

My only thing in the top 5 is I don't want another D lineman. If they went D line again, that would make this 6 out of the last 8 years to major in defense in the first and 2nd round in an offense dominated league, I want off of that script versus to try it again.   Part of the reason why I couldn't disagree more that Marvin Harrison would feel like Chase Young all over again is the obvious reason --- Marvin is an elite level college passing weapon in a passing league.  That would be us running WITH the league trend.   Taking Chase (who I was good with at the time) was running AGAINST the league trend on building your team on defense let alone adding to unit that already was loaded.

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Riggo#44]

[ultravin]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I know what you mean.  But I don't think its the "scouts" but mock drafters who aren't scouts.

 

Playing very amateur scout on my end.  I think Fashanu and Alt for that matter too are very good prospects for reasons I expressed here.  They are getting beat up on the draft thread some but speaking for myself, i am not in that camp of seeing them as lesser prospects.  I really dig both of them.

 

Fashanu has tremendous upside with freakish agility IMO and Alt is very consistent and in a good way with freakish length.  Both IMO would be really good picks.

 

And as you likely know considering how much I've whined about the O line on the QB thread, I want to improve the O line desperately.  But I never look at the draft in the frame of the first round alone.  For example, I wouldn't have trashed their last draft as harshly, if they took an O lineman in the 2nd versus taking the first O lineman in the late third (basically a 4th rounder) -- and a player they said from the jump they don't intend to start this season.

 

So essentially they did ZERO in the draft to help the 2023 O line.  And signed a couple of jags in FA and called it a day.  It was a pathetic effort from Ron IMO.  I wasn't that picky at the time.  Use one of your top two picks on the O line and sign one marquee FA and that I felt would make all the difference.  But they didn't do it, they did basically nothing.

 

If they this off season use one or both of the high 2nd rounders on the O line.  Who?  I don't know yet, maybe Patrick Paul and Beebe or whomever.  Typically there are good O line prospects in the early 2nd.  And they sign a FA like Hunt and I'd be happy.  Look if they take it a step further and draft Fashanu or Alt, I'd be happy, too.  But I am not locked in to any prospect especially if they pick top 5.

 

My only thing in the top 5 is I don't want another D lineman. If they went D line again, that would make this 6 out of the last 8 years to major in defense in the first and 2nd round in an offense dominated league, I want off of that script versus to try it again.   Part of the reason why I couldn't disagree more that Marvin Harrison would feel like Chase Young all over again is the obvious reason --- Marvin is an elite level college passing weapon in a passing league.  That would be us running WITH the league trend.   Taking Chase (who I was good with at the time) was running AGAINST the league trend on building your team on defense let alone adding to unit that already was loaded.

 

I would love to get one of them!  But screw it!  If I can get Chicago’s 2nd 1st round pick, and hopefully get back to back picks, I would take both and have bookend tackles!😁.  I would trade next year’s 1st and give them cam kurl and SF’s 3rd rounder this year.

[Warhead36]

This might sound crazy but I actually think the fact that Fashanu is from the D.C. area is a negative. I'm just kinda tired of the "local savior" garbage that'll get spewed. 

[Commander Adama]

11 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

This might sound crazy but I actually think the fact that Fashanu is from the D.C. area is a negative. I'm just kinda tired of the "local savior" garbage that'll get spewed. 

I think the whole Chase Young thing did this to us all.