Next Day Thread: Denver

[Koolblue13]

1 minute ago, mudhog said:

It's weird to be a fan of this team and hear about long snapper issues with such a storied past such as ours. I'm in my 50s and for pretty much my whole adult life, LS has been covered by either Red or Nick.

Then you inevitably get the old geezer who pops in and says " Ya know, Nick Sunberg once played a whole half for us with a broken arm?"
 

We'd pat him on his head and say "I know, pops" Then we'd give him his Geritol and settle him in his recliner for his morning nap.

🤪

[TheGoodBits]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

 

I will never forgive Ron for releasing Nick Sunberg. You know that guy played an entire half with a broken arm for us? Helped Way to his first ProBowl. Ron cuts him and drafts Cheese. Huge red flag there.

 

Possibly worth noting that Sundberg is a free agent and hasn’t played since being released. I don’t know that he was the right option. 
 

Drafting a long snapper definitely wasn’t the right option though. 

[Thinking Skins]

2 minutes ago, TheGoodBits said:

Possibly worth noting that Sundberg is a free agent and hasn’t played since being released. I don’t know that he was the right option. 
 

Drafting a long snapper definitely wasn’t the right option though. 

Wasn't he injured? 

[Conn]

1 hour ago, TheGoodBits said:

Possibly worth noting that Sundberg is a free agent and hasn’t played since being released. I don’t know that he was the right option. 
 

Drafting a long snapper definitely wasn’t the right option though. 

Sundberg retired not long after he was released, I believe  

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, Thinking Skins said:

Wasn't he injured? 

He was coming back from injury, but wanted to keep playing.

[Skinsinparadise]

Someone asked me a few days ago about my take from being at the game. I mentioned my take of Howell yesterday on the QB thread.

 

As for overall impressions of the offense.  

 

In the one practice i watched during camp, I mentioned seeing delayed route after delayed route being run where its usually the RB but at times the TE, chips and then breaks a few yards up and Howell hits them with a quick pass.  Or sometimes the RB or TE doesn't block at all but hangs back and then darts out as soon as they have a little daylight.

 

That was a bread and butter play on Sunday. Especially when Howell was under pressure or when they blitzed.  I posted two plays like that below.  The first two clips was one play.  The other three was another play. 

 

They seemed to use their fair share of 6 protecting.  And Denver seemed to mainly rush 4.   But an RB or TE would bleed off on delayed routes so that's how the had their cake and eat it too, max protect but use one of those players also as a receiving weapon concurrently, and take advantage of their opponent's pressure and aggressiveness.

 

When they went straight old school screens where Howell quickly throws to the WR -- they weren't hot at that.  Howell looked great overall.  But he somewhat telegraphs those WR screen throws.  He takes a tick too long.  His body language gives it away.  Russell Wilson throws those type of screens better or at least he did on Sunday -- more decisive and quicker.  But Howell is masterful with the delayed route-screens IMO.   And any player can peel off and do them including even John Bates.

 

There were a lot of crossers in that game.  A mix of shallow ones and 2nd level ones.    

 

O line looked so so IMO.  Interior was good.  Tackles not so much.   It wasn't just the 4 sacks but he also got hit a bunch   This was versus a medicore D line who got no pressure against the Raiders the week before and they got the pressure with mostly a 4 man rush up against at times 6 and if I recall even some 7 man max protections. 

 

Howell is sometimes responsible for the hits-sacks.  He's incredibly tough in the pocket and will hang in there until a dude gets open.  And considering teams are playing 7 in coverage, and a lot of cover two, dudes aren't always getting open fast.  

 

The first half when they were behind, Bieiniemy seemed mostly to keep to himself studying his playchart.  But in the 2nd half he'd huddle with the offense frequently preplay to go over what's next.

 

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Conn]

Doesn’t really clear anything up 

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

Clear as Gouda.

 

Self-ban until Sunday. See y’all then. 

[NickyJ]

According to some random site I found on Google, there are 858 college football teams in the U.S. Presumably, each of those teams has special teams group that has a punter, a kicker, and a long snapper. Surely, somewhere in this group of 858 long snappers produced every 4 years, there has to be SOMEONE other than Cheeseman, Sundberg, or Albright who can snap a ball more than 5 yards.

Edited September 21, 2023 by NickyJ

[RandyHolt]

I love to see BRob getting targets in the passing game. The offense becomes too predictable with a run only RB. Dumbing it down some but its run run pass with THE predictable playaction coming.  Play action works but I dont want to open a whole can of whoopass worms here and start a debate that a team must first run 15 times successfully before using it. OOPS.

 

Sure a run first back that cannot stopped because of a roided up OL that plow the road like the league has never seen before... we'll save that conversation for 1983 2083.

Edited September 21, 2023 by RandyHolt

[Voice_of_Reason]

22 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

And add two new tackles and move Wylie to guard.

I'm not going to argue keeping Wylie at tackle.

 

But Cosmi is playing really well at the moment, and Charles certainly has shown (so far) he's not completely over-matched.  They would, however, have to re-sign Charles.  He got run over a few times in the opener, but was better in week 2.  

 

If they get 2 new tackles, then I think they will cut Wylie.  His cap number for next year is $9.4m, dead cap is $7.8m.  Yeah, you'd take a reasonable hit cutting him, but you have a reasonably hit keeping him to.  They might cut him post June 1, and split the cost.  

 

It also depends on if this group, specifically if EB is back.  If he is, re-signing Charles might make a lot of sense, depending on how well he plays the rest of the season.  If this group is not back, it's impossible to predict the scheme, and what the scheme fit of any player would be.  

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I'm not going to argue keeping Wylie at tackle.

 

But Cosmi is playing really well at the moment, and Charles certainly has shown (so far) he's not completely over-matched.  They would, however, have to re-sign Charles.  He got run over a few times in the opener, but was better in week 2.  

 

If they get 2 new tackles, then I think they will cut Wylie.  His cap number for next year is $9.4m, dead cap is $7.8m.  Yeah, you'd take a reasonable hit cutting him, but you have a reasonably hit keeping him to.  They might cut him post June 1, and split the cost.  

 

It also depends on if this group, specifically if EB is back.  If he is, re-signing Charles might make a lot of sense, depending on how well he plays the rest of the season.  If this group is not back, it's impossible to predict the scheme, and what the scheme fit of any player would be.  

 

The wildcard though with both Charles and Cosmi is can they stay healthy?  If past is prologue the third guard would end up starting plenty of games.

[DWinzit]

27 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The wildcard though with both Charles and Cosmi is can they stay healthy?  If past is prologue the third guard would end up starting plenty of games.

Good point along with a few other wildcards:

Will Daniels shine in preseason?

Can Stromberg prove decent at G, keeping Gates at C?

Or how about River and EB are goners. The new staff may want to blow it all up?

One thing is for sure, the Tackles need real addressing!

[Voice_of_Reason]

56 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The wildcard though with both Charles and Cosmi is can they stay healthy?  If past is prologue the third guard would end up starting plenty of games.

This is extremely valid.  I think we need to see how the rest of the year plays out to see if that concern hold ups, at least this year.  

 

I do wonder what the future holds for Paul though.  Maybe he's just a backup, and maybe that's just fine.  Get 4 years of him as a backup, for a 5th round pick, that's just fine.  

[Warhead36]

We can't keep trotting Wylie out there at RT. Even against two weaker fronts he's been exposed. WTF is gonna happen when we face the likes of Parsons, Thibodeaux, and all the beasts the Eagles have? 

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

26 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

Good point along with a few other wildcards:

Will Daniels shine in preseason?

I keep forgetting about his existence.  Mostly because he's never done anything to cause me to remember his existence.

 

 

26 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

Can Stromberg prove decent at G, keeping Gates at C?

They like Stomboli.  This goes further to my point, if they replace Wylie as a starter, he's probably cut.  They might have Stromboli replace Charles if he leaves in FA.  

 

26 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

Or how about River and EB are goners. The new staff may want to blow it all up?

That's the great unknown.  Charles, Gates and Cosmi seem to be great fits for the type of OL EB wants.  Maybe they can upgrade, but he wants more athletic rather than bigger, more powerful (but slower) players. The next coach might want a different type of player for a different type of scheme.  

 

26 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

One thing is for sure, the Tackles need real addressing!

They absolutely have to pick a LT in the draft next year.  I get all the nonsense about best player available.  Fine.  I don't care.  Get in position to draft a starting LT.  I like Leno.  But they need to get better.  Maybe Leno moves to the right side.  I dunno. 

 

I wanted them to trade up this year to get the best OT they could get.  

[Thinking Skins]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I'm not going to argue keeping Wylie at tackle.

 

But Cosmi is playing really well at the moment, and Charles certainly has shown (so far) he's not completely over-matched.  They would, however, have to re-sign Charles.  He got run over a few times in the opener, but was better in week 2.  

 

If they get 2 new tackles, then I think they will cut Wylie.  His cap number for next year is $9.4m, dead cap is $7.8m.  Yeah, you'd take a reasonable hit cutting him, but you have a reasonably hit keeping him to.  They might cut him post June 1, and split the cost.  

 

It also depends on if this group, specifically if EB is back.  If he is, re-signing Charles might make a lot of sense, depending on how well he plays the rest of the season.  If this group is not back, it's impossible to predict the scheme, and what the scheme fit of any player would be.  

The thing about Charles is I wonder about the seriousness of his injuries. It's like the Daniels stuff now. It's he really injured or did we need the spot? 

 

Charles was thought to be a first rounder in part because of his tape against Young at LT. Maybe that was a fluke but it happened. I think he has the opportunity to get signed to a reasonable deal similar to what Wylie got, maybe a little more. But this is his first real test. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

Just now, Warhead36 said:

We can't keep trotting Wylie out there at RT. Even against two weaker fronts he's been exposed. WTF is gonna happen when we face the likes of Parsons, Thibodeaux, and all the beasts the Eagles have? 

Except the film and the grades would indicate what you just posted is factually incorrect.  

 

He's not a train wreck.  He's mostly just fine, and from time to time he biffs entirely.  That said, the sack which was credited to him in week 1 was 100% the RB (I think GIbson) going the wrong way.  So say ... literally every single person who's looked at it, and the coaches, and the players.  

 

I'm all for upgrading.  But the narrative he's THAT bad is actually not accurate. He's most "fine" with a few moments of "WTF."  

 

Also, they need to communicate better on who's got who.  It's not unreasonable for that to still be developing as they've only played 2 games together as an OL in a new scheme.  But if they cut out some of the plays where nobody blocks a guy and 3 guys block a blitzing safety, that would be good.  

[Koolblue13]

Just now, Thinking Skins said:

The thing about Charles is I wonder about the seriousness of his injuries. It's like the Daniels stuff now. It's he really injured or did we need the spot? 

 

Charles was thought to be a first rounder in part because of his tape against Young at LT. Maybe that was a fluke but it happened. I think he has the opportunity to get signed to a reasonable deal similar to what Wylie got, maybe a little more. But this is his first real test. 

I think we'll be drafting in the middle again, so I'd prefer them sign a LT and draft a RT instead of moving up. Moving up in the first is expensive. 

 

Although, we might as well through our second in the deal, since we'll screw that pick up any way.

[LetMeSeeYourWarFace21]

Sorry fellas, off topic but........NFC East news in case you haven't heard.....

 

RISCO, Texas -- Dallas Cowboys star cornerback Trevon Diggs has a torn ACL in his left knee, sources told ESPN's Adam Schefter.

 

Diggs suffered the injury Thursday during a one-on-one drill in practice and was briefly spotted inside The Star on crutches, sources told ESPN.

Edited September 21, 2023 by LetMeSeeYourWarFace21

[DWinzit]

8 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I keep forgetting about his existence.  Mostly because he's never done anything to cause me to remember his existence.

Fair enough, haha but if this staff stays, they like him and need to prove his draft worth

 

8 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

They like Stomboli.  This goes further to my point, if they replace Wylie as a starter, he's probably cut.  They might have Stromboli replace Charles if he leaves in FA.  

I can see this, he showed a lot at G late in the preseason and they definitely like him at C. Plus he has learned a lot working with Gates and Larsen

 

8 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

That's the great unknown.  Charles, Gates and Cosmi seem to be great fits for the type of OL EB wants.  Maybe they can upgrade, but he wants more athletic rather than bigger, more powerful (but slower) players. The next coach might want a different type of player for a different type of scheme.  

 

They absolutely have to pick a LT in the draft next year.  I get all the nonsense about best player available.  Fine.  I don't care.  Get in position to draft a starting LT.  I like Leno.  But they need to get better.  Maybe Leno moves to the right side.  I dunno. 

 

I wanted them to trade up this year to get the best OT they could get.  

We need a LT! That is for sure

[Voice_of_Reason]

13 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

We need a LT! That is for sure

Yes. The biggest issue with Leno is he is getting older, and he's "ok."  It would be ideal if they could get an upgrade. 

 

That said, my firm belief is the draft is a complete and total crap shoot.  So, I probably wouldn't release Leno (or Lucas or Wylie) until it was DAMN SURE they had an upgrade.  Remember, Erek Flowers was drafted as a tackle by the Giants at #9, couldn't play tackle, got released, and found a home at guard here.  He was a total bust for the Giants at #9.  Draft position doesn't mean squadoosh to bust percentage.  (Ok, it KINDOF does.  You're more likely to be able to play the earlier you're drafted.  But that said, plenty of high draft picks completely bust every year.  

 

All that said, they should draft a damn tackle. 

[Skinsinparadise]

14 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

The thing about Charles is I wonder about the seriousness of his injuries. It's like the Daniels stuff now. It's he really injured or did we need the spot? 

 

Charles was thought to be a first rounder in part because of his tape against Young at LT. Maybe that was a fluke but it happened. I think he has the opportunity to get signed to a reasonable deal similar to what Wylie got, maybe a little more. But this is his first real test. 

 

No, he was genuinely injured each year.  Keim even said during camp that this brass is sold on Charles except for wondering if he can stay healthy.

 

And Daniels really got hurt, if I recall tore his rotator cuff.  Yes it was convienent but it went down.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Thinking Skins]

14 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Yes. The biggest issue with Leno is he is getting older, and he's "ok."  It would be ideal if they could get an upgrade. 

 

That said, my firm belief is the draft is a complete and total crap shoot.  So, I probably wouldn't release Leno (or Lucas or Wylie) until it was DAMN SURE they had an upgrade.  Remember, Erek Flowers was drafted as a tackle by the Giants at #9, couldn't play tackle, got released, and found a home at guard here.  He was a total bust for the Giants at #9.  Draft position doesn't mean squadoosh to bust percentage.  (Ok, it KINDOF does.  You're more likely to be able to play the earlier you're drafted.  But that said, plenty of high draft picks completely bust every year.  

 

All that said, they should draft a damn tackle. 

That's kinda true but I like the way Ron drafts. Let them sit. Get the skills and coach them up. Athleticism is hard to find. So is passion for the game but we're working with a lottery here. 

 

I don't want there to be any real necessity to put any rookie on the field next year. If we do, I want it to be because he earned it, not because of draft status. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, Thinking Skins said:

That's kinda true but I like the way Ron drafts. Let them sit. Get the skills and coach them up. Athleticism is hard to find. So is passion for the game but we're working with a lottery here. 

 

I don't want there to be any real necessity to put any rookie on the field next year. If we do, I want it to be because he earned it, not because of draft status. 

I don't want Ron doing the drafting next year.  And I'll leave it at that.