2023 Offseason Mini Camp, OTA’s, Training Camp Discussion Thread: Hallelujah, Josh Harris & Co. Era Edition

[Jumbo]

38 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I miss the days that we only complained about Casey Rabach.

 

Who complains about the finest acting we've ever seen from Steven Segal?

 

 

[MartinC]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

 

If Wylie struggles at RT, I hope they'd consider him at LG.  I think the best shot for better play would be Lucas at RT, Wylie at LG.  I still think good D lines will give them fits even with that move but I'd guess it would be better.

 

I think Hoffman, who is ironically Logan Paulsen's podcast partner summarized his guess perfectly to mine -- up and down week to week depending on the matchup. 

The best 5 is probably Leno, Wylie, Gates, Cosmi, Lucas. Not that Lucas is a huge upgrade on Wylie at RT but he’s better in pass pro and Wylie is a better G than a T.

 

[Koolblue13]

5 minutes ago, Jumbo said:

 

Who complains about the finest acting we've ever seen from Steven Segal?

 

 

Never mess with the chef.

[MartinC]

8 minutes ago, Jumbo said:

 

Who complains about the finest acting we've ever seen from Steven Segal?

 

 

That’s a hell of a low bar. 😂

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Hearing about Moses still playing at a high level, brings me back to a place where I remember Ron inherited an OL with Trent Williams, Morgan Moses, and Scherff and ran them all out of town.  Sheesh.

Edited August 20, 2023 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

12 minutes ago, Jumbo said:

 

Who complains about the finest acting we've ever seen from Steven Segal?

The best to ever do it.

 

Edited August 20, 2023 by AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy

[Skinsinparadise]

9 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Hearing about Moses still playing at a high level, brings me back to a place where I remember Ron inherited an OL with Trent Williams, Morgan Moses, and Scherff and ran them all out of town.  Sheesh.

 

The irony to that is when we likely get a new regime in 2024 -- part of the narrative will be return to glory -- pre Dan era.  And that glory era of course had the O line as a main plot line.  It sets up the new regime with a narrative as to returning to glory with bolster this O line.  The story writes itself. 

Edited August 20, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The irony to that is when we likely get a new regime in 2024 -- part of the narrative will be return to glory -- pre Dan era.  And that glory era of course had the O line as a main plot line.  It sets up the new regime with a narrative as to returning to glory with bolster this O line.  The story writes itself. 

OL and LBer the entire draft 

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

22 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Hearing about Moses still playing at a high level, brings me back to a place where I remember Ron inherited an OL with Trent Williams, Morgan Moses, and Scherff and ran them all out of town.  Sheesh.

 

Why does everyone attribute Bruce's failures with Trent as Ron?

[SpacePenguin]

1 minute ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

 

Why does everyone attribute Bruce's failures with Trent as Ron?

 

Recency bias against an unsuccessful front office, mostly. 

 

I guess you could blame Ron for not giving him a new contract, and wanting him to play the current one out, but given the circumstances..... it's not exactly fair to fault him for not throwing guaranteed money at a player who'd sat out the previous season with health issues.

 

There's plenty enough to blame on Ron's crew without resorting to that.

[MartinC]

6 minutes ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

 

Why does everyone attribute Bruce's failures with Trent as Ron?

Yeah bridges with Trent were well and truly burnt by the time Ron arrived. That ship had

sunk. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

2 minutes ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

 

Why does everyone attribute Bruce's failures with Trent as Ron?

Everyone doesn’t do that, not even close.  

Ron definitely didn’t try hard at all to repair the relationship though.  If I’m the new guy in charge - I’m kissing Trent’s ass publicly, and I wouldn’t have the audacity to suggest he has anything to prove to anybody.

 

It’s likely Dan was so pissed at Trent that he instructed Ron not to do that, who knows.  But the facts remain that Ron’s OL of today is a dumpster fire in comparison to the one he inherited.

[XxSpearheadxX]

46 minutes ago, Jumbo said:

 

Who complains about the finest acting we've ever seen from Steven Segal?

 

 

 

[Conn]

19 minutes ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

 

Why does everyone attribute Bruce's failures with Trent as Ron?

Probably because fair or not, Rivera could have tried harder to fix that relationship with our franchise player. Future HOFer. Best in the league. A little more effort could have gone a long way. Instead he took it as an opportunity to instill his “culture”, ignoring that winning over a locker room long-timer like Trent could go even further in instilling the culture he wanted.

 

He could have said “hey, those assholes didn’t appreciate you. But I do. Here’s your next payday, go lead this franchise.”

 

He didn’t. He decided to instead say “I don’t know you. You didn’t really play last year. Show me. Prove it, and maybe you’ll get that next payday.” 
 

Yeah, it didn’t work. Yeah, in the context of everything that preceded Rivera it’s arguably not one of his biggest roster-building sins. But make no mistake, it IS a sin on his ledger. That was OUR stud LT that Bruce ruined things with, and he did not at all try hard enough to win him back to us. That HOFer should be finishing his career with us, and while Rivera was handed the mess he also didn’t pick up the mop and try to clean it up—he pointed at the mop and said “show me who you are and what you can do and maybe you can clean this mess up enough to stay here”. Pretty easy choice to continue forcing his way out after that, for Trent. And I don’t blame him one bit given the state of this franchise at the time. Same with Scherff. 
 

Maybe it wouldn’t have changed anything, but if he had tried those things and still failed, it definitely wouldn’t be on his permanent record. Unfortunately, he didn’t, so we’ll never know. Which means for me, it goes on his record as well. 

Edited August 20, 2023 by Conn

[Koolblue13]

I think Conn just nailed it. If it was a one player situation it would be one thing, but Ron then went on to dismantle an excellent OL, coaches and all.

 

Maybe Ron takes Trent serious and gets the PT/DR side of things fixed and prioritizes the OL and their health and we've got an OL featuring 3 or 4 top ten at position players upfront for our young QB to start behind.

 

I can see not hanging Trent on Ron. He did offer Scherff the highest contract for a Guard, but by that point he had no interest in staying.

 

OL is all on Ron and it'll be the anchor that sinks him this season. And unfortunately our season will suffer for it.

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Hearing about Moses still playing at a high level, brings me back to a place where I remember Ron inherited an OL with Trent Williams, Morgan Moses, and Scherff and ran them all out of town.  Sheesh.

I mean, he inherited that, but he didn't exactly run them all off.  

 

After Trent trashed the organization, there is no way Dan was going to let Ron give Trent what he wanted, the largest LT contract in the history of the NFL.  Trent wanted out. He knew what was what.  He preferred to sit out a year rather than play for these fools.  Ron did the best he could in getting something back for Trent when the combination of Bruce/Dan + some of Trent destroyed the possibility of him coming back.

 

And for Scherff, I'm not sure what more Ron could have done.  They offered him the highest value OG contract in the NFL in successive off-seasons.  And he turned them down because he also wanted out.  It would be one thing if Ron low-balled Scherff.  But there is no indication that ever happened.  They valued him, franchised him twice, and offered him top of the market contracts.  He didn't take their money, and there's nothing you can do about that.  He also wanted out of this clown shoe organization with Dan at the head of it and fans in revolt, and who can blame him?

 

Moses is on Ron's room bill though.  No reason not to find a way to keep him around.  

[clskinsfan]

The thing that pisses me off about Ron is not getting anything of value for Scherff or Trent when the writing was on the wall that they were not going to sign here. He did the best he could with Trent after wasting a full year of value for him. And we got nothing for Scherff except a compensatory pick. Not acceptable at all. 

[Darth Tater]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Hearing about Moses still playing at a high level, brings me back to a place where I remember Ron inherited an OL with Trent Williams, Morgan Moses, and Scherff and ran them all out of town.  Sheesh.

Ron had very little to do with running Trent out of town most of that was on Allen, Snyder and the fans. Scherff was not going to resign period and we kept him as long as we could. This was more a product of Snyder and us fans.

[SpacePenguin]

 

21 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I mean, he inherited that, but he didn't exactly run them all off.  

 

After Trent trashed the organization, there is no way Dan was going to let Ron give Trent what he wanted, the largest LT contract in the history of the NFL.  Trent wanted out. He knew what was what.  He preferred to sit out a year rather than play for these fools.  Ron did the best he could in getting something back for Trent when the combination of Bruce/Dan + some of Trent destroyed the possibility of him coming back.

 

And for Scherff, I'm not sure what more Ron could have done.  They offered him the highest value OG contract in the NFL in successive off-seasons.  And he turned them down because he also wanted out.  It would be one thing if Ron low-balled Scherff.  But there is no indication that ever happened.  They valued him, franchised him twice, and offered him top of the market contracts.  He didn't take their money, and there's nothing you can do about that.  He also wanted out of this clown shoe organization with Dan at the head of it and fans in revolt, and who can blame him?

 

Moses is on Ron's room bill though.  No reason not to find a way to keep him around.  

I agree, good/great players wanting the biggest payday possible and not being opposed to leaving this dumpster fire of an organization isn't really RonCrew's fault. That's why I'd never fault them for Scherff or Trent.

 

Cutting a decent starter on a reasonable salary just to "get younger" is a far graver offense. Compounded with Roullier's issues, it really stands out.

 

Basically, I think Scherff and Williams leaving were unavoidable and Roullier's recurring injuries were unforeseeable, while Moses leaving was completely avoidable.

 

I can see why people would blame it all on them, though. The OL has been ruined, and Cosmi is really the only high draft pick devoted to renewing it.

 

They thought they could fill the gaps with ex panthers and coach up late rounders. It hasn't panned out.

 

 

Edited August 20, 2023 by SpacePenguin

[Voice_of_Reason]

12 minutes ago, SpacePenguin said:

 

I agree, good/great players wanting the biggest payday possible and not being opposed to leaving this dumpster fire of an organization isn't really RonCrew's fault. That's why I'd never fault them for Scherff or Trent.

 

Cutting a decent starter on a reasonable salary just to "get younger" is a far graver offense. Compounded with Roullier's issues, it really stands out.

 

Basically, I think Scherff and Williams leaving were unavoidable and Roullier's recurring injuries were unforeseeable, while Moses leaving was completely avoidable.

 

I can see why people would blame it all on them, though. The OL has been ruined, and Cosmi is really the only high draft pick devoted to renewing it.

 

They thought they could fill the gaps with ex panthers and coach up late rounders. It hasn't panned out.

 

 

Agree with everything.

 

Additionally, there is also that odd thing with Flowers.  Maybe they knew something, but releasing him at the same time Scherff left was really odd.  But, on the flip side, he hasn't played in the league since.  So, maybe they knew something we didn't. And they have had plenty of opportunity to call him up and invite him back. Which maybe they have, and he said no.  It's very odd.

 

Williams and Scherff wanting out of this circus I completely get.  

 

Moses, that's a failed evaluation.

 

The biggest sin might have been just over-estimating what Norwell and Turner had in the tank last year.  I remember a lot of folks, myself included, kindof game them the benefit of the doubt because they hit on Leno and Lucas, so they earned a bit of the benefit of the doubt.  But that bet failed miserably.  The other bet that failed miserably was counting on 3 players coming off of IR:  Rouiller as the starting center, and Sweitzer as the backup center/backup (or maybe starting) guard, and Larson as the backup center.  Throw in they had to know Larson was going to miss the start of the season, that meant they were betting Rouiller was going to stay healthy, and Schweitzer would be able to back up him and both guard spots.  

 

Disaster struck when Rouiller and Schweitzer went down in the Detroit game, Turner and Norwell started the season hurt, and there was literally nobody left to play Center or guard.  

 

That's as much of a "bad plan" as Jon Snow and Danny Targaryen going north of the wall to bring back a white walker to prove they exist.  BAD PLAN. (Spoilers for Game of Thrones 5 years ago.)

Edited August 20, 2023 by Voice_of_Reason

[Going Commando]

24 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I can see not hanging Trent on Ron. He did offer Scherff the highest contract for a Guard, but by that point he had no interest in staying.

 

Agree that Conn is right about Ron's handling of Trent.  That whole Trent situation was him strong arming the team into a new contract and Ron could have fixed the situation by just giving him a new deal.  That's what he should have done.  And the buck has to stop with Ron because he had total power over the roster at the time and he is the one who dealt Trent.

 

Scherff is on Ron too.  That highest paid guard in the league offer came two years two late.  You can't make a guy play on the tag for two ****ing seasons and expect him to say no hard feelings, sure I'll stay.  Not when he's got other options.

 

The reason Ron lost us both Trent and Scherff is because he refused to offer any new deals to guys who were already on the roster in the spring and summer of 2020.  He was trying to implement his standard for getting paid here, and it cost us our two best players.  Is it going to be worth it?  I don't know.  But I have always thought both of those decisions were huge mistakes, I've always criticized Ron for them, and if I had been in charge, I absolutely would have paid Scherff and Trent in the spring of 2020.  I also would not have declined Chase's 5th year option, nor would I have let Daron go into the final season of his rookie deal without an extension.  I believe when you draft somebody with a high pick like that, you're making a plan for them to be a long term leader and a foundation player for you.  And if you abandon that plan when it's time to negotiate the extensions, than wtf were you even doing on draft day?

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

30 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I mean, he inherited that, but he didn't exactly run them all off.  

 

After Trent trashed the organization, there is no way Dan was going to let Ron give Trent what he wanted, the largest LT contract in the history of the NFL.  Trent wanted out. He knew what was what.  He preferred to sit out a year rather than play for these fools.  Ron did the best he could in getting something back for Trent when the combination of Bruce/Dan + some of Trent destroyed the possibility of him coming back.

 

And for Scherff, I'm not sure what more Ron could have done.  They offered him the highest value OG contract in the NFL in successive off-seasons.  And he turned them down because he also wanted out.  It would be one thing if Ron low-balled Scherff.  But there is no indication that ever happened.  They valued him, franchised him twice, and offered him top of the market contracts.  He didn't take their money, and there's nothing you can do about that.  He also wanted out of this clown shoe organization with Dan at the head of it and fans in revolt, and who can blame him?

 

Moses is on Ron's room bill though.  No reason not to find a way to keep him around.  

I’ve carried plenty of water here for Ron, but I was never happy with how he addressed the Trent situation.  I don’t disagree that Dan was likely in play and impacted Ron’s ability to salvage the relationship.  I could sit here all day and inject Dan’s impact on most everything.  But the optics weren’t great for Ron no matter how you chop it up.

 

As for Scherff, the blame lies on franchising him twice - when it was evident he didn’t want to be here.  Beyond that, he attempted to replace him with Norwell who apparently everyone but Ron knew was finished.

 

Moses was a surprise cut out of nowhere, that didn’t seem necessary at the time.  And again, no real legitimate replacement.

 

[MrJL]

Just now, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I’ve carried plenty of water here for Ron, but I was never happy with how he addressed the Trent situation.  I don’t disagree that Dan was likely in play and impacted Ron’s ability to salvage the relationship.  I could sit here all day and inject Dan’s impact on most everything.  But the optics weren’t great for Ron no matter how you chop it up.

 

As for Scherff, the blame lies on franchising him twice - when it was evident he didn’t want to be here.  Beyond that, he attempted to replace him with Norwell who apparently everyone but Ron knew was finished.

 

Moses was a surprise cut out of nowhere, that didn’t seem necessary at the time.  And again, no real legitimate replacement.

 

Cosmi was supposed to be the legit replacement.  Cosmi was actually a suprising pick, because it made us four deep at tackle

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

32 minutes ago, Darth Tater said:

Ron had very little to do with running Trent out of town most of that was on Allen, Snyder and the fans. Scherff was not going to resign period and we kept him as long as we could. This was more a product of Snyder and us fans.

I addressed all this stuff in my response to VoR.  I am very well versed in how everything has shaken out.  I have a shameful amount of posts about it in real-time as it was all going on dating back to Bruce.

I’ve also been more Pro-Ron than most here during his tenure.  But he’s done himself no favors in how he’s handled the OL, circumstances be damned.

 

Edited August 20, 2023 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[SpacePenguin]

21 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

 

Additionally, there is also that odd thing with Flowers.  Maybe they knew something, but releasing him at the same time Scherff left was really odd.  But, on the flip side, he hasn't played in the league since.  So, maybe they knew something we didn't

...

.......

 

That's as much of a "bad plan" as Jon Snow and Danny Targaryen going north of the wall to bring back a white walker to prove they exist. BAD PLAN. (Spoilers for Game of Thrones 5 years ago.)

 

I was under the impression that Flowers had always struggled with his weight and finally said "**** it" and showed up to off-season workouts super sized. Not sure where I read it, though.

 

And yeah, nothing in the GOT show made any sense once they ran outta source material. Characters are just teleporting around Westeros and acting counter to their well defined personality traits. How can one even spoil bad fan fiction?

Edited August 20, 2023 by SpacePenguin