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2023 Offseason Mini Camp, OTA’s, Training Camp Discussion Thread: Hallelujah, Josh Harris & Co. Era Edition

Conn

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Skinsinparadise

Skinsinparadise

Posted
Posted
42 minutes ago, philibusters said:

 

I wouldn't discount yesterday simply because the players don't have pads on.  However, listening to the beat reporters, the consensus was that of the four practices, yesterday was by far the worst for the offense.  That likely means it was the worst for the O-Line too.  Our O-Line is not as good as our D-Line and both lines are going to have some variance.   Yesterday sounds like the day that the D-Line was on its game and the O-Line wasn't.

 

I hear you but that I've heard multiple times the O line had bad days.  What was unique abiut yesterday was the bad day filtered to Howell. 

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KDawg

KDawg

Posted
Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I hear you but that I've heard multiple times the O line had bad days.  What was unique abiut yesterday was the bad day filtered to Howell. 

 

There is a MAJOR advantage for the defense in a padless scenario. Pads take up space. They also restrict movement to a degree.

 

But the big thing that I don't ever really see mentioned is the way that OL block...

 

They aim for the breastplate in many scenarios and lock on. Not a hold (their hands are inside). But it's the way they will account for a rusher. Inherently blocking another human, particularly a 6-3 260 lb monster that runs a 4.4 40 yard dash is using your grip strength and size to counter the rush. 

 

I'd be REALLY worried about our vaunted DL that is supposed to be one of the best in the League if they weren't outperforming a mediocre at best OL in padless practices. 

Edited by KDawg
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Skinsinparadise

Skinsinparadise

Posted
Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

I think he and Lucas are carbon copies almost. Lucas is a bit more "heavy handed", Wylie is a bit more agile but they are similar all things considered. The athleticism changes it. 

 

They look the same in pass pro to me. Both not quite liabilities but not quite good enough to be considered as a quality pass protector. 

 

Wylie's movement gives me a bit of hope.

 

But again, to my point above: The key is Bienemy. 

 

And yes, Mahomes breaks the pocket entirely too often... and an OL that has to deal with that is going to have a bad time against NFL athletic ends. 

 

The only reason Kansas City and their fans haven't totally turned their backs on him is that he happens to be a young candidate on the GOAT list. (Obviously they wouldn't turn on him. Point here is that when you're as good as Mahomes, breaking the pocket and causing extra pressures/sacks sometimes but mostly leading to big plays and points is beyond acceptable..)

 

To me they are very apples to oranges.  And seeing the two next to each other really brings it home for me.  Lucas with 88 and change wingspan versus Wylie at 81. Neither one with the reputation of being great players -- arguably not even good players. So don't get me wrong am not pimping for Lucas because I dig him as a player.  I just don't think its crazy that he can protect Howell better on the right side.

 

And I am stuggiling to bring this point home but this is a key part of it for me.  Wylie doesn't have the reputation of being some great run blocker at all.  This isn't like he's another Cosmi out there.  He has an OK reputation as a run blocker.  OK.  Nothing special.  He's not some uber fast freak.  If he were, I'd be on board of sacrifice the pass protect some for a special run blocker.  But that narrative doesn't fit. 

 

I presume Lucas was up against Smith-Williams mostly yesterday.  I couldn't see who lined up against him.  But he handled from what I saw those 2nd team guys like it was nothing.  Conversely, at least according to Logan Paulsen (who typically is pollyana) Wylie struggled some against those same backup pass rushers.

 

Maybe that means nothing.  Maybe him being close to leading the league in sacks given up last year means nothing too.  Maybe If I recall he was first or 2nd in the league in most pressures given up mean nothing too.  Maybe some of who watched him think he's better suited to guard.  Maybe some who covered him saying he was the weak link on that unit, even though he was playing next to a pro bowler and was given a lot of extra help means nothing, too.

 

And I don't mean that sarcastically.  I get there is context to everything.  I am just saying speaking for myself.  There is an inventory of concerns I got running for that player.  He has some rope with me, still.  But I just can't dismiss all of that just yet.

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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KDawg

KDawg

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

To me they are very apples to oranges.  And seeing the two next to each other really brings it home for me.  Lucas with 88 and change wingspan versus Wylie at 81. Neither one with the reputation of being great players -- arguably not even good players. So don't get me wrong am not pimping for Lucas because I dig him as a player.  I just don't think its crazy that he can protect Howell better on the right side.

 

And I am stuggiling to bring this point home but this is a key part of it for me.  Wylie doesn't have the reputation of being some great run blocker at all.  This isn't like he's another Cosmi out there.  He has an OK reputation as a run blocker.  OK.  Nothing special.  He's not some uber fast freak.  If he were, I'd be on board of sacrifice the pass protect some for a special run blocker.  But that narrative doesn't fit. 

 

I presume Lucas was up against Smith-Williams mostly yesterday.  I couldn't see who lined up against him.  But he handled from what I saw those 2nd team guys like it was nothing.  Conversely, at least according to Logan Paulsen (who typically is pollyana) Wylie struggled some against those same backup pass rushers.

 

Maybe that means nothing.  Maybe him being close to leading the league in sacks given up last year means nothing too.  Maybe If I recall he was first or 2nd in the league in most pressures given up mean nothing too.  Maybe some of who watched him think he's better suited to guard.  Maybe some who covered him saying he was the weak link on that unit, even though he was playing next to a pro bowler and was given a lot of extra help means nothing, too.

 

And I don't mean that sarcastically.  I get there is context to everything.  I am just saying speaking for myself.  There is an inventory of concerns I got running for that player.  He has some rope with me, still.  But I just can't dismiss all of that just yet.

You can’t dismiss it. The problem is that our other guy, Lucas, doesn’t fit schematically and we have no other options because we didn’t address the OL in an adequate fashion and instead doubled up on DBs.

 

The OL better be better than decent and our pass defense better be extremely high end to warrant that.

 

Especially true imo because I had guys (personally, I know you differ) at OL spots rated MUCH higher than I had Quan Martin.

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Skinsinparadise

Skinsinparadise

Posted
Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

I'd be REALLY worried about our vaunted DL that is supposed to be one of the best in the League if they weren't outperforming a mediocre at best OL in padless practices. 

 

I've watched our vaunted D line in practice against the O line before.  I have never seen anything like what I saw yesterday.  And I've been to camp a lot over the years.

 

To your point, maybe its just the D line playing to their potential and in the past they didn't.  Maybe.

 

My thing is I try to look at units just like I pick stocks in the market.  That is, I am not hung up on any one thing.   You can often explain for better or worse one variable.   But if I have 5-6 variables converging in one direction to buy or sell, I do better listening to that voice in my head.  If I run with emotion, I am more likely to make a mistake.

 

I do worse when I run by emotion.  I mention that becuase while I might come off as a bit emotional about it -- and I am on two fronts.  That is, I see this season as a squandered opportunity so it gives some edge to my points.   Squandered as to helping Howell and maintaining the fan excitement that Ron inherited. 

 

But on another front, just judging the unit, I try to be impassive.  My thoughts are ruled by a combination of variables that don't sit well with me.  My mind has changed on some points as I've been exposed to more information including my thoughts on Wylie. 

 

I bought the Kool Aide initially on Wylie because I admit I do get emotional initially for FA signings.  I want just the good narrative, not the bad.  I can sell Wylie well if I wanted to do it.  I know the talking points well. But digesting more information, he's a much bigger wildcard in my mind for reasons I expressed.   But maybe I am wrong, will see.  I am not per se down on him but he feels like a wildcard to me at RT and he intrigues me more at LG.

 

Not saying you are the opposite on any of this. just explaining my mindset

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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Skinsinparadise

Skinsinparadise

Posted
Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, KDawg said:

You can’t dismiss it. The problem is that our other guy, Lucas, doesn’t fit schematically and we have no other options because we didn’t address the OL in an adequate fashion and instead doubled up on DBs.

 

The OL better be better than decent and our pass defense better be extremely high end to warrant that.

 

Especially true imo because I had guys (personally, I know you differ) at OL spots rated MUCH higher than I had Quan Martin.

 

I was higher on Quan Martin than you were.  So I was good about that pick.  But I said at the time, I'd have taken Mauch considering the context of the roster/season.  Mauch made it on my guys list, just like Martin did.   I loved Martin so overall I got no complaints about that specific move. 

 

But for me if its on the table that they aren't going to take an O lineman in the first or 2nd, then IMO they should have approached FA differently.  Like you, my beef is their overall roster construction approach.  It's not about this move or that move but how it all added together.

 

For the O line, we were pretty in synch from what I recall.  I would have traded up for Bergeron, another guy I know you loved.  We both weren't high on Avila but you were more down on him.  Apparently, though this team loved him.  We both dug Stromberg. 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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KDawg

KDawg

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I was higher on Quan Martin than you were.  So I was good about that pick.  But I said at the time, I'd have taken Mauch considering the context of the roster/season.  Mauch made it on my guys list, just like Martin did.   I loved Martin so overall I got no complaints about that specific move. 

 

But for me if its on the table that they aren't going to take an O lineman in the first or 2nd, then IMO they should have approached FA differently.  Like you, my beef is their overall roster construction approach.  It's not about this move or that move but how it all added together.

 

For the O line, we were pretty in synch from what I recall.  I would have traded up for Bergeron, another guy I know you loved.  We both weren't high on Avila but you were more down on him.  Apparently, though this team loved him.  We both dug Stromberg. 


You’re absolutely right here. I didn’t mean to imply you wanted Quan over (insert OL name here) just that you liked Quan better than me.

 

the roster building under Rivera has been subpar. And the fact that we’re even having a Wylie vs. Lucas conversation makes my teeth chatter in frustration. It’s so crazy to think these two are any kind of real answer on a weak OL.

 

Can’t even say, “well, maybe a healthy Cosmi can play RT for us if needed”…

 

First because of the modifier “healthy” and second because we don’t have any real interior OL that can take over. And if we do we’re in camp and they aren’t showing that kind of mindset of “wow, Charles and Paul both look good! Let’s get them both out there!” Or “Daniels is growing quick!”

 

Instead we’re left with… this.

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RandyHolt

RandyHolt

Posted
Posted (edited)

I heard on XM Fantasy that BRob wants to catch more passes this year. EB may just make that happen. I have been beating the drums for using backs more in the passing game especially when we were thin at WR.

 

I am glad the OL got schooled in first team drills. Ron may be happy with his OL but new management may not be and there is time to try to pull off a miracle upgrade when cuts start or heck even a trade.

Edited by RandyHolt
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wit33

wit33

Posted
Posted

My football coaches/students of the game help me out a bit.

 

The 15min or so I’ve game highlights I’ve watched of Wylie left me impressed with his timing of punches and when the QB was hitting his 3 or 5 step drop back. He seems to be synchronized with the play call at a high rate. 
 

How much value does this have as an Olineman?

 

As a basketball coach, over the years I’ve had many less talented guys excel due to understanding concepts at a higher level than more talented players. I also concede talent is a big deal lol

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DiscoBob

DiscoBob

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

I don't think I'd even trade a late round pick for a new Olinemen, because it's a throw away year, but our Oline stinks. 

 

I would normally assume that you'd have a hard time improving the oline with a late round pick.... but this year, it might actually be possible, given the starting point!

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Koolblue13

Koolblue13

Posted
Posted
23 minutes ago, DiscoBob said:

 

I would normally assume that you'd have a hard time improving the oline with a late round pick.... but this year, it might actually be possible, given the starting point!

While true, I still ain't giving up picks. All eyes are on the future now.

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Always A Commander Never A Captain

Always A Commander Never A Captain

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Bieinemy is the star of our camp arguably.  I follow a lot of NY reporters and for Giants camp their star seems to be Waller.  If Waller ends up healthy, and that's a big if, he's a handful. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Giants 1st round corner getting roasted by Waller? Not surprised Banks couldn't handle him. A little disappointed Waller might actually be back to his old self though.

 

I am dubious about Campbell being the #2 target though. The other Giants WR's must be kind of ass then.

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